American justice system in Ireland

The justice industry in the US profits by putting people into their prisons.

The justice industry here profits by keeping people out of prison. Someone who commits 300 crimes is a cash cow for the lawyers, judges, etc. If they were locked away on the third offence then that revenue stream dries up. So they keep them walking the streets committing crimes and earning money for the justice industry.

Personally I'd prefer the American Justice Industry model. At least there the people who suffer are those convicted of crime not those who are the victims of repeat offenders

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The 2014 act isn't fit for purpose according to some judges.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/laws-aimed-at-cutting-numbers-jailed-for-unpaid-fines-not-working-1.4189706

I am well aware of the failings of the legislation, however it had to be stated that the numbers jailed for unpaid fines has since plummeted, which was one of the objectives when the legislation was originally conceived.

rossie1977 wrote: »

Not sure why we in Ireland should be attempting to emulate a system that clearly isn't working.

Unfortunately whenever there is a discussion of crime and justice there is always a cohort who have the simplistic idea of 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' as the solution. Any cursory glance at the American justice system would tell you that that strategy is a failure, they have more than 2 million prisoners and it hasnt made any dent in the levels of crime.

From what I can see most of our problem here in Ireland is repeat criminals and the practice of concurrent sentences. If you get arrested for robbery or burglary here there will be approximately a year between being caught and facing the courts. Criminals know that they are going to get a concurrent sentence so then during that year they are actually incentivised to go and commit even more burglaries- after all if you know every sentence you serve will run concurrently then you might as well go down for 10 burglaries as going down for one. The structure of the system actually makes it worth criminals while to commit even more crimes, its a real in for a penny, in for a pound scenario.

One thing I dont get here is that there is two simple ways of solving this. For a start put an end to concurrent sentences, if you do 10 burglaries you have to be getting 10 sentences running one after the other. But secondly why are we not using GPS ankle tags on anyone who is out on bail? Its very simple, if the Gardai knows a criminals location at all times then they cannot commit any more crime. Ankle tags effectively prevent crime because who would be dumb enough to commit one when technology can actually place them at the scene of the crime. Right now they can go rob a shop at knifepoint, cover their face and the CCTV is useless. But put an ankle tag on them and now you have irrefutable evidence placing them at the location at the time the crime was committed. Its a game changer IMO.

I strongly believe if we ankle tagged criminals here you would see a large drop in crime, remove their ability to remain anonymous/invisible and suddenly if they do anything they're going to get caught and convicted because of that tag around their ankle.

tdf7187 wrote: »

Drumm was the patsy and yes he was convicted. The fella above him was acquitted in rather strange circumstances.

As far as I know he just got a " slap on the wrist".

The yanks had him in lock up while he was fighting extradition, until he realized ,that if he came home he would just have to report to a garda station occasionally.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Unlikely, sure on that basis let them away all the time in case one gets violent.

That's how it works in some american states. 3 strike rule, and offenders shoot to kill.
If the punishment doesn't suit the crime then offenders get more vicious.

Our revolving door and minor crimes not being punished Consistently is the problem. With an ankle bracelet, 140 convictions could be 140*6mths locked up at home. No major cost to the state and their not walking about. Hell you could have anyone with 3 convictions on a curfew, so easy and so effective.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Serious sentences would send a message. A pickpocket than knew they were getting 5 years for the hundred euro they got would think twice. They would still stay on social welfare but they wouldn't take the same chances

Indeed but it was supposed to be replaced and never was

You can take the PlayStations away for starters. They need something, I understand that and I'm not a cruel man but **** that. They can read quality books, not trash. They can take classes to actually improve themselves and now importantly, learn legitimate skills. Too many classes in prisons are almost empty cause the prisoners don't bother. They have made the career choice to always be a Criminal. 5 years for 1 wallet? Might make them realise they made the wrong decision.

However, after all that the simple reality is a Criminal in jail is not committing crimes against decent people while locked up. if you factor in stopping their dole, the cost of legal aid every time they go to court and the cost of a judge + Gardai compared to the cost of prisoner officers I'm thinking the be cost of locking then up isn't as much as the numbers suggest if actually even cheaper

That's enough justification for me.

because they are a threat to society is a good reason to lock them up, yes, absolutely, and that is how it should be.
my point is that locking people up to send a message doesn't work, it's pointless and it's political type nonsense designed to make people feel better.
political type speak has no place in terms of dealing with this issue nor has political type stunts.
absolutely increased sentences, an end to concurrent sentences, more gardai and more prison spaces, are the sensible things we need, they will allow us to manage the issue and deal with it effectively.
we will never eradicate it, but we can certainly keep individuals out of society and protect the public much much better.

blackbox wrote: »

I never understood the rationale behind concurrent sentencing.
.

i would agree, it certainly is something that doesn't and never did make sense.

I think instead of prison they should go to a centre every Saturday morning, and listen to recorded speeches of MD Higgins, Mary Robinson, Bertie Ahern, Eamon De Valera.
Let them out in the late afternoon if they can give a good summary of what they heard.

JustAThought wrote: »

If politicians had the willpower this problem could be fixed overnight - like the way the found a billion to bail all the baks out, overnight -

They had no choice, if they didn't we would have been in a far worse situation.

JustAThought wrote: »

or how they decided to dig up and meter every house in the state to tax their water - overnight -

The people of Ireland pay to process water to drink. For other utilities such as gas, coal, electricity, food each house pays for what it uses. You seem o think Water is different. This was a condition from the EU bailout.

JustAThought wrote: »

or gow they decided many other things never democratically voted on or demanded by the electorate.

They were democratically voted, we elect a govt and they make decisions. It's not possible to hold a referendum of the people for every decision.
Take the water example, either we pay what we use or it gets paid from central taxation. If there's not enough money and we know there isn't, then you and me will pay more taxes.

JustAThought wrote: »

I agree totally with an american style punitive system that frees our streets of crininal vermin in a maKe them feel the pain and pay their way prison - earn your food by making envelopes or sewing hotel sheets or doing laundry and make the prisons pay for themselves - as someone has shrewdly commented here if you add up all the laywers, barristers, assistants, researchers, admjnistrators and gaurds fees or salaries and balance that against the cost of keeping someone in prison it will start becoming clear that is does pay to put them away - and for 20 or 30 yeara at a time.

Nothing pays to lock people away, there are ankle bracelets and that keeps them out of the public and doesn't cost the state.

JustAThought wrote: »

And stop payng them dole when they are in so that don’t come out after 3 or 4 years to a 40 or 50k cash bonus in their bank account. This country is a joke.

Does that happen, real question as I haven't a clue. If so it seems crazy.

JustAThought wrote: »

The same criminals are classified as homeless while in prison and put on free house for life waiting lists while they are inside - why are the media not talking about those items?

For those that have to be locked away, when they do get out if they have no job, no chance of getting a job and nowhere to live, what do you think they will do ? They would need some support to break the cycle.