The EU 'rescue' package comes at a big price

fly_agaric · 28-05-2020 3:46pm

hmmm wrote: »

Do you anti-EU lot just sit around waiting for these threads, or are you sent out at a particular time to start one? Just wondering.

EU appears in the news -> can I find any negative angle/spin in there? -> (yes) make post stuffed with usual rhetoric + talking points | (no) ignore it

An agent/bot could do it. I'm sure bots probably do provide this great service for us all (!?) on the various social media platforms!

brickster69 · 28-05-2020 3:58pm

Breakdown of recovery fund allocation

https://twitter.com/pietercleppe/status/1265935317200179201

tobefrank321 · 28-05-2020 3:59pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is gas.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/eus-750bn-aid-plan-comes-with-tax-sting-in-the-tail-for-ireland-39239811.html

Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall giving permission along with every other Irish person for Brussels to tax us.

From 2028 we'll start being taxed from Brussels apparently - who knew!?

So we should accept €2 billion (Ireland's miniscule quota in this "rescue") from the EU in return for what? Calling Brussels our capital and surrendering what is left of our fiscal and just about every other vestige of sovereignty?

Doesn't sound like a great deal.

The government should say no and simply borrow the money ourselves.

I think water charges were one proposed condition for the Troika's deal in 2011.

These bailouts rarely come without conditions or a loss of sovereignty.

If they come for our corporation tax rate, we might as well close up shop as a country.

Harry Palmr · 28-05-2020 4:49pm

brickster69 wrote: »

Breakdown of recovery fund allocation

https://twitter.com/pietercleppe/status/1265935317200179201

Calculated on a GDP basis, no wonder we got the shi-tty end of the stick.

fash · 28-05-2020 5:34pm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

I think water charges were one proposed condition for the Troika's deal in 2011.

These bailouts rarely come without conditions or a loss of sovereignty.

If they come for our corporation tax rate, we might as well close up shop as a country.

you sound like a brexiter. Perhaps Ireland should leave the EU, and go back cap in hand to the UK to become its punching bag again. We were poor but-what with the vicious, bullying treatment by the Brits- we were happy. They might be wife beaters (threatening violence, starvation and economic harm as recently as November 2019) - but they say they love us - so we should go back - is that it?

Varik · 28-05-2020 5:51pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Calculated on a GDP basis, no wonder we got the shi-tty end of the stick.

That's just his own way of comparing it.

VillageIdiot71 · 28-05-2020 6:14pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

brickster69 wrote: »

Breakdown of recovery fund allocation

https://twitter.com/pietercleppe/status/1265935317200179201

Very useful.

So we're going to pay in €18.7 billion and receive €3 billion.

So the proposal is pretty much irrelevant to us as a recovery tool. The Irish part of this story is we are contributing over €15 billion because we want to show solidarity with Greece, Spain and Italy.

Is that how our politicians and media are communicating it?

Geuze · 28-05-2020 6:47pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
Very useful.

So we're going to pay in €18.7 billion and receive €3 billion.

So the proposal is pretty much irrelevant to us as a recovery tool. The Irish part of this story is we are contributing over €15 billion because we want to show solidarity with Greece, Spain and Italy.

Is that how our politicians and media are communicating it?

Be careful here.

This EU plan is integrated with the EU's normal Budget.

So those contributions and receipts may be conflated with our normal contributions and receipts.

I am not 100% on this yet, no time to check now.

But the plan is on top of existing Budget.

Geuze · 28-05-2020 6:54pm

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_940

Yes, the Recovery Plan is built on top of normal Budget.

Normal EU Budget = spend max 1% approx of EU GNI, this is known as the MFF, current MFF is 2014-2020.

This plan allows an increase to the 2020 Budget

This plan allows ceiling to rise to 2.00% of GNI for 2021 onwards.

How it will be financed?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_3_en.pdf

Geuze · 28-05-2020 6:57pm

Four factsheets here:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_940

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_1_en.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_2_en.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_3_en.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/cwp-2020-adjusted-factsheet_en.pdf

suicide_circus · 28-05-2020 8:46pm

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Time to leave the EU

can't. we're shackled to it via the Euro. The Brits at least has the sense to hold on to their own currency. If we exited about half everyone's wealth would disappear over night. This is a one way freight train.

VillageIdiot71 · 29-05-2020 1:27am

Geuze wrote: »

Be careful here.

This EU plan is integrated with the EU's normal Budget.

So those contributions and receipts may be conflated with our normal contributions and receipts.

I am not 100% on this yet, no time to check now.

But the plan is on top of existing Budget.

I'm very open to any pertinent information. But I don't see anything as clear as that table linked above. And. I'm afraid, I don't find any if the material you posted is illuminating.

I'm comfortable with the treatment in that table, which gives a pretty clear statement of net financial impacts for member states.

And it show, for example, Italy doing well on a net basis, and Ireland making a large net contribution.

If you are saying there is another table, just as clear, that shows Italy making huge contributions and Ireland getting huge receipts that are not included in those figures, please post it.

Otherwise, let's flatly state the situation. Why the reluctance to acknowledge a transfer of resources from Ireland to Southern Europe?

jimmycrackcorm · 29-05-2020 2:47am

Fann Linn wrote: »

And there will be nothing said and it will be accepted meekly as we like to show we're the best little boys in the EU.

Sure, how are we doing being part of the EU army btw?

Richard Hillman · 29-05-2020 3:24am

We already have an EU spending deficit and now we're getting this paltry sum.

You can almost rank the little amount for the most EU Loyal countries. The most EU Safe countries are getting nothing and the ones that are sceptical are getting the bonanza. Poland are a bit of an outlier.

Admittedly our disastrous Covid response has been our own doing. The countries surrounding Italy like Austria, Slovenia and Croatia did so much better but we're in such a weak position when we have Varadker (Who is obviously flaunting himself for em EU job) and Micheal Martin trying to score us a deal.

Bit cynical · 29-05-2020 4:18am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I remember I was showing sympathy with the Germans when they were told to bail out everyone in 2010. Almost everyone here was saying "they should give more".

Not so nice when we are in the same situation. Net contributors and getting screwed.

1.9bn out of 750bn.

It's enough to make you agree with Nigel Farage! Hungary, a far smaller economy than ours (and a quasi dictatorship), gets 9bn!

Well I think the 2010 bailout was a bit different. It was entirely made up of loans from the member states and some from the IMF. No grants. Everything to be paid back by the Irish taxpayer. Second, as part of the conditions, about half the money borrowed had to be handed over to the Irish banks which were not allowed to go bust thereby directly benefiting those member states doing the lending. The large countries like Germany got a very good deal out of it. Too good to be true really, though the German electorate did not like it.

I suspect threats were made behind the scenes possibly involving our corporation tax policies that forced Ireland into accepting that particular bailout.

Peregrinus · 29-05-2020 4:32am

Any bailout is going to involve transfers from some member states to others. Whether Ireland is a net contributor or not, there will certainly be net contributors. So you might ask why any country would agree to participate in a bailout to which they will be a net contributor?

And the answer is; because they have an interest in the health of the Union as a whole. Refusing to participate in a bailout because you will be a net contributor is a bit like the UK deciding to Brexit because they are net contributors. They recognise the cost of being a net contributor but they fail to recognise the benefits that accrue to them from the programmes and activities to which they contribute. I think it's accepted by all but the ideologically-deluded that the savings to the UK resulting from not contributing to the EU budget will be offset multiple times over by the losses and opportunity costs that result from not being in the EU and participating in the programmes, activities and structures which that budget funds.

So, the question is, does Ireland have an interest in the continuing good healt of the EU/EEA economy? As a small, open economy that is highly dependent on trade withour neighbours the answer is yes, we do, in fact we have a bigger interest in this than most other member states.

Once you grasp this, you can no longer reduce the issue we face to a simple net contributor/net beneficiary question. The issue becomes not whether we should contribute but how much we should contribute, relative to what others contribute and to our interests that are at stake here, and also how to ensure that our contributions (and those of other member states) are in fact used in ways that advance our interest in a healthy economy in the region.

BonnieSituation · 29-05-2020 4:41am

suicide_circus wrote: »

can't. we're shackled to it via the Euro. The Brits at least has the sense to hold on to their own currency. If we exited about half everyone's wealth would disappear over night. This is a one way freight train.

So I guess we shouldn't leave so?

fash · 29-05-2020 6:04am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Once you grasp this, you can no longer reduce the issue we face to a simple net contributor/net beneficiary question.

But that is no fun and doesn't allow us to shake our fist at the EU. Why would we do that?

suicide_circus · 29-05-2020 9:15am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So I guess we shouldn't leave so?

Not for the foreseeable future, no.

Seth Brundle · 29-05-2020 9:58am

The amount of anti-EU nonsense here makes me think I'm reading the Express or Daily Mail :rolleyes:

[Deleted User] · 29-05-2020 10:38am

It's always been there, but was suppressed by the feeling that being anti-EU was heretic talk and was frowned upon.
Usually anti EU posts are shouted down very quickly.

RobbingBandit · 29-05-2020 11:15am

EU funds a lot of vital services was the sentiment but it's become obvious they give with one hand and take back with both economic growth will stall and stagnate in the next 12 months with any stimulus package adding to the turmoil and sending the country into a very deep recession.

Geuze · 29-05-2020 11:18am

RobbingBandit wrote: »

EU funds a lot of vital services was the sentiment but it's become obvious they give with one hand and take back with both economic growth will stall and stagnate in the next 12 months with any stimulus package adding to the turmoil and sending the country into a very deep recession.

We were net beneficiaries for many years: CAP payments and structural funds.

Now the structural funds are much less, as we are a much richer country.

We still receive CAP payments.

We are now a net contributor.

I think this is fair enough.

listermint · 29-05-2020 11:21am

dolanbaker wrote: »

It's always been there, but was suppressed by the feeling that being anti-EU was heretic talk and was frowned upon.
Usually anti EU posts are shouted down very quickly.

It has always been there you are 100% correct. But its also in the absolute minority. Shouty people who take articles at face value and go off and spread them around on facebook or whatever social medium they are usually on.

As i said these people are really really in the minority especially in this country but they think due to the likes and one ups and retweets in their little social media bubble theyve cultivated that they are bigger than they are or that there is a wee family they belong to.

Theres little substance or science to the believes but sure.... that rarely matters does it.

threeball · 29-05-2020 12:01pm

I'm normally very pro EU but in this instance they can stick this up their hole. This should be done on a per capita basis. How can Germany claim some of the lowest death rates and simultaneously claim to be one of the hardest hit. They should be told to cram it and don't come back to us whinging about taxation levels for the next 30yrs.

fly_agaric · 29-05-2020 12:24pm

I haven't had a chance to look into the details of these calculations at all but assume GDP is being used, similar to setting out EU budget contributions (?)

Suppose it goes to show carrying water for the US technology multinationals + others who wash money through our economy/provide jobs here [...and artifically inflate Irish GDP as side effect] is perhaps not without some downsides.

edit: Funny thing is this crisis is likely to make them (the US technology companies) stronger.
Don't know enough to say really, but I wonder could such distortions in GDP become even bigger if domestic economy is in bits due to the virus for next year or 2?

fash · 29-05-2020 12:36pm

threeball wrote: »

I'm normally very pro EU but in this instance they can stick this up their hole. This should be done on a per capita basis. How can Germany claim some of the lowest death rates and simultaneously claim to be one of the hardest hit. They should be told to cram it and don't come back to us whinging about taxation levels for the next 30yrs.

I'm pretty sure that Germany will be PAYING for much of the fund - not taking from it. The places that are worst hit by Covid are the ones that will also be economically worst hit (most reliant on tourism): Spain and Italy

VillageIdiot71 · 29-05-2020 1:00pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, the question is, does Ireland have an interest in the continuing good healt of the EU/EEA economy? As a small, open economy that is highly dependent on trade withour neighbours the answer is yes, we do, in fact we have a bigger interest in this than most other member states.

Once you grasp this, you can no longer reduce the issue we face to a simple net contributor/net beneficiary question. The issue becomes not whether we should contribute but how much we should contribute, relative to what others contribute and to our interests that are at stake here, and also how to ensure that our contributions (and those of other member states) are in fact used in ways that advance our interest in a healthy economy in the region.

And I look forward to our public dialogue on EU matters reflecting that approach.

I can't say I've noticed your level of candour in discussions to date.

dolanbaker wrote: »

It's always been there, but was suppressed by the feeling that being anti-EU was heretic talk and was frowned upon.
Usually anti EU posts are shouted down very quickly.

Yes, shouted down tends to be the response.

Even when a comment isn't particularly "anti-EU".

VillageIdiot71 · 29-05-2020 1:07pm

fash wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that Germany will be PAYING for much of the fund - not taking from it. The places that are worst hit by Covid are the ones that will also be economically worst hit (most reliant on tourism): Spain and Italy

Just to be clear, we seem to be down for contributing a net €15.7 billion. Germany will be contributing a net €133 billion.

Per head, we'll be making double the net contribution of Germany.

But it's all worth it. EU. Goes without saying.

Varik · 29-05-2020 1:11pm

Don't care if we're a net contributor in general or to this directly, if we are then we're in a good place to begin with.

But the terms here are abhorrent, we'd be permanently harming our economy for nothing and expected to be thankful.

The EU 'rescue' package comes at a big price

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