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Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

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12467…17

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    #92
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    It's bloody incredible to be honest how far you've come Krusty and a good kick up the arse for somebody like myself.

    In my 8 years of running marathons, my total improvement is 38 minutes, which isn't bad. The problem is that in my first 2.5 years, that figure read 36 minutes. So, the marathon PB has only improved by 2 minutes since April 2008 which just proves that I haven't put in anywhere near the work that many others have done.

    Neet to start beating myself up a bit, do the hard miles, and commit to a proper target


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    #93
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    Good point Ecoli. I'm not big into putting limitations on myself, but realistically, getting down below 2:45 would take a hell of a lot more consistency than I've had for the last couple of years. The next couple of years should allow for steadier year-round training hopefully.

    I've probably relaxed a little into a relative comfort zone in the last couple of years. There is constant improvement with PBs at all distances last year, and so far this year in the 5k and the half. But, I think I need a big of a major target to get me moving a bit. Sub 2:55 would probably be a bit soft, and not much different from the 2:58 in reality. I'd love to have been doing more consistent training since January, but I suppose I am where I am. As it stands, the 10k I did two weeks ago was the exact same time as a July 10k last year, with this year's one on a much tougher course, so I'm well ahead of where I was in May last year.

    You plan on marathoning this Autumn yourself or are you giving it another year or two?

    The fact that you are bringing down the shorter distance PBs shows you are improving so it might just take a specific marathon block and a bit of an increase in mileage and there is no reason why you can't take major chunks out of that time.

    Planning on Rotterdam myself but I know that if I am to have any chance of hitting my (albeit lofty) target, the work is gonna have to begin now.

    Have had a long term plan for roughly 18 months but to be honest I have not given it 100% so results have been fairly poor this year. The only positive is that looking at previous years I go through phases of very good training followed by nothing. The last 5 months though they have been poor have been more consistent so I am hoping that getting the training back on track the more consistent (albeit semi poor) training will have me at a better starting point.


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    #94
    blockic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭blockic


    ecoli wrote: »
    To this I have one response

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52935733&postcount=1

    We always look to guys running faster and think its not possible but to be honest alot of the time it is just us being a few steps behind them in our training life.

    Wow - that is some post! Just shows what one can do with determination and hard work...and a small bit of talent! ;)


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    #95
    ronnie085
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Ok going to nail my colours to the mast. Going to change approach from P&D that I used to a decent amount of success in most marathons I've done and going to give Danials an 18 week shot. The elite plan looks a bit too scary so at the moment looking at plan a to get me to sub 2:40, maybe a little more. Depending on on the next few weeks go building up I'll be hoping to max out around the 100 mile mark, previous max week was 95 miles in the build up to London this year. I need to fix a few few things as well, such as diet, flexability and core/ strength work which has all gone by the wayside this year. So being the first time really using Danials I'll be back with loads of stupid questions and maybe even looking for people to drag me around some of the tougher sessions ;)

    Will just stick a link to this thread started by ecoli a while back which could help getting a group together http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75328439


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    #96
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    You got any sort of plan of races ronnie085, I presume it's the Dublin marathon or are you venturing further overseas?

    I think I'm going to find it hard to stay away from races during the base-building phase. Even on today's 12 mile run about with a couple of the lads, I more or less talked myself into running around three races in June/July. I suppose no harm in them really, but it'll be important to keep the eye on the more important ball in October.


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    #97
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    Ecoli's revived the sub 2:45, which has great training ideas in there and will hopefully be added to by the many posters who've made big gains over the last couple of years.

    I've decided to start this sub 2:50 thread because for most, I would say that 2:49 would be the logical next target after a sub-3 marathon. The vast majority of sub-3 marathoners would be capable of running the half marathon in 1:24 or under, so there is a certain amount of speed there.

    From my own personal point of view, performances have levelled out since the first sub-3 I did, primarily down to work/college life factors preventing prolonged periods of high mileage training. I did another 2:58 last Autumn, and managed a 1:22 half on a fairly tough course this March. I've maintained reasonably good shape off modest enough training since the start of the year.

    I'm in for Chicago on October 13th. It's a fast course and if weather plays ball, could give me a good chance of running a decent time. 2:50 is definitely ambitious at this moment in time, but if things go according to plan, I'll be in a position to hit the marathon-specific training phase for that target in August/September.

    My plan of action is to ramp up the mileage fairly aggressively over the next month. June/July will be primarily low intensity, high mileage conditioning. I may do one or two races during this period, but the aim is really mileage.

    In August, I'll most likely do the National Halfs in Dublin. If I can run 1.21-1.22 there off the non-specific training, I'll commit myself fully to the time target, and start the specific work with PMP set at 6:28.

    Anyone else with similar targets, be great to get sharing some thoughts.

    If you're running 1.22 in a tough half when your main focus seems to be elsewhere then you have to be thinking of sub 2.50 when you get back in to proper training. We have a very similar approach to tackling the marathon and I'd love to see you put up a proper log when you pick one to run again. I reckon there'd be good insight there for a lot of people. Are you thinking of running Dublin maybe?


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    #98
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    When that thread started I disregarded it because it was not my level, but times change and by now I'm reasonably confident that I might break 2:50 next year.

    I have been following some form of Canova training (there was a very good thread here about it last year, t-runner gave a lot of info) to get me to 2:55 on a day that didn't go too smoothly, and with a bit more improvement I do think that sub-2:50 will be achievable on a good day.


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    #99
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Yeah, I was sort of toying with the idea of a training log, just not sure it's for me really. I'll likely keep a bit of fortnightly updates of progress using this thread if it stays alive and healthy.

    No, staying away from Dublin again this year. It's all about Chicago on 13th October. Anything else is just padding. The training will probably read fairly boring for the next few weeks, just getting mileage up with the odd race to get an idea where I am.

    The 1.22 was a surprise alright, to be honest. I really didn't think I was in that shape, but its sort of given me the confidence to commit to a more agressive marathon target.

    You lining anything up for the Summer/Autumn?


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    #100
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    ronnie085 wrote: »
    Ok going to nail my colours to the mast. Going to change approach from P&D that I used to a decent amount of success in most marathons I've done and going to give Danials an 18 week shot. The elite plan looks a bit too scary so at the moment looking at plan a to get me to sub 2:40, maybe a little more. Depending on on the next few weeks go building up I'll be hoping to max out around the 100 mile mark, previous max week was 95 miles in the build up to London this year. I need to fix a few few things as well, such as diet, flexability and core/ strength work which has all gone by the wayside this year. So being the first time really using Danials I'll be back with loads of stupid questions and maybe even looking for people to drag me around some of the tougher sessions ;)

    Will just stick a link to this thread started by ecoli a while back which could help getting a group together http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75328439

    In hindsight I enjoyed Daniels and there's definitely some sessions in there that will become part of regular training the 2 x (20minE + 20minT) + 2E is a great year round session and will never leave you too far from specific training from a 10k to Marathon. I also loved the flexibility, plug in your max mileage, focus on 2 key sessions and run the rest how you feel.
    It did leave me a little whacked at times, so having the same focus on the rest, nutrition and diet will stand to you.


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    #101
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    I'm looking at focusing on a 10 mile and possibly a 10k race over the summer. Probably run the 10 mile marathon series in the park. It would be a good one for getting in some really specific training over the summer because I run a lot in the park anyway. I'll be trying to complete out the ten round numbers too so I'll be down at a couple of the graded meets. Of course the beer mile is high on the agenda as well. I'll hopefully be getting some good race specific training this week. A bit of experimentation will have to be carried out. My current downing of drinks ability is nowhere near up to scratch. Probably pace the Dublin Marathon too if they need people. It sounds like a packed agenda when I put it all down on paper. I didn't think I had much running planned at all.


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    #102
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    Yeah, I was sort of toying with the idea of a training log, just not sure it's for me really. I'll likely keep a bit of fortnightly updates of progress using this thread if it stays alive and healthy.

    No, staying away from Dublin again this year. It's all about Chicago on 13th October. Anything else is just padding. The training will probably read fairly boring for the next few weeks, just getting mileage up with the odd race to get an idea where I am.

    The 1.22 was a surprise alright, to be honest. I really didn't think I was in that shape, but its sort of given me the confidence to commit to a more agressive marathon target.

    You lining anything up for the Summer/Autumn?

    I'd read it! ;)


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    #103
    Peckham
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Peckham


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    When that thread started I disregarded it because it was not my level, but times change and by now I'm reasonably confident that I might break 2:50 next year.

    Reasonably confident? Says the man who ran a 2:58 and taking a podium place when out for a jaunt around Killarney!


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    #104
    Peckham
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Peckham


    My name's Peckham, and I'm targeting a sub-2:50.

    Like RunForestRun, I'm off to Chicago in October and focus is on breaking the sub-2:50 mark that day. Will be quite a step-up for me as training has been sporadic over the past year or so, and even my Boston 2012 training wasn't great (was targeting a sub-2:55 that day, but even if it wasn't for the weather I feel I would have blown up anyway).

    I used Daniel's Plan A for Boston and loved some of the sessions, so am going to repeat that again but on increased mileage (max will be a 75 mile week, compared to 60 for Boston). Previously ran 2:58 off Pfitzinger 18/55 plan.

    At the moment I've a dual focus (if that's possible!): Firstly to build a solid mileage base (target is for 200 miles during May), and also build some speed through the McMillan 10k plan. That plan will bring me up to the 2nd week in July and then it will be 13-14 weeks of Daniels.

    As for races - I've a 5k (parkrun) in a few weeks as part of the McMillan plan, then it's a 10k in July. After that I'm not sure, although looking likely I'll be doing the 10 mile in Phoenix Park or the Tullamore half. The half marathon in Phoenix Park is only 4 weeks out from the main event, so might not go for that one (although it would be my preference to do the 10 mile/half marathon combo).

    Am also thinking about the Plan B marathon in case weather goes against us in Chicago - although not much to choose from in November (Dublin is two weeks after Chicago).


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    #105
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Peckham, if we can be Chicago's answer to the KU/KC bromance forged on the streets of London, it'll be a happy day..


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    #106
    ronnie085
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Runforestrun, yeah Dublin is the plan alright, ran it twice so far and it went well before that. No other races set in stone apart from the Dunshaughlin 10k, will get at least one 5k and maybe another 10k in before that. National half could be on the cards although I'm finding it a little hard to get excited about that at the moment. Oh and get that log up and running ;)

    Beepbeep, looking forward to getting into it, the only thing is the flexability might end up a good thing or a bad thing, with P&D I was just blindly following the plan, it might take a little more discipline when I'm my own boss so to speak


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    #107
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I'd read it! ;)

    Right, between the lot of ye, you've talked me into it.

    I've crossed over to the dark side and started a log. Feel free to ridicule my pathetic excuse for training effort over the last six months.


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    #108
    robbicosta
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭robbicosta


    Anyone here running Berlin in September? I ran Dublin last year in 2:59 but going for a punchier target this time out. I'll be backing up after the Western States 100 miler in June so I'll have the endurance. I'll just need to work on the speed.


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    #109
    ronnie085
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Just to bump this up, 18 weeks to go to Dublin, starting the Daniels plan A today, longest plan I've done in a while, hopfully a few races will break it up a little


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    #110
    happygoose
    Registered Users Posts: 703 ✭✭✭happygoose


    robbicosta wrote: »
    Anyone here running Berlin in September? I ran Dublin last year in 2:59 but going for a punchier target this time out. I'll be backing up after the Western States 100 miler in June so I'll have the endurance. I'll just need to work on the speed.

    Hoping for a 2:4X in Berlin myseld Robbicosta, will be throwing my National Half time into McMillan before deciding what time to go for.


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    #111
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭jfh


    just came across this thread, i'm hoping to do 2:50 in dublin, previous best is 3:41 but i've been concentrating on getting the 10km time down.

    i had a really nice P&D schedule drawn up in excel, complete with highlighted cells & intended pace, but's that's as far as that went.:rolleyes:

    i like the flexibility of the Daniels plan A, i should be able to stick to 2 sessions per week. i see the first few sessions are 4 min Hard, what pace would that be for a 2:50 marathon?


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    #112
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    jfh wrote: »
    i like the flexibility of the Daniels plan A, i should be able to stick to 2 sessions per week. i see the first few sessions are 4 min Hard, what pace would that be for a 2:50 marathon?
    I think I read in the pages before the plan, that 'hard' is the perceived effort of what you could race for 15 minutes, so should ideally be faster than 5k pace. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Last night I did a couple of reps of these, and they were around 10k pace. As long as they are around (or faster than) your threshold pace, you'll be grand, as they're just part of the building phase.

    BTW: Daniels is all about running at a pace based on a recent race result (vdot), so you shouldn't base your pace on your marathon target, but rather on a recent race performance.


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    #113
    ronnie085
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    jfh wrote: »
    just came across this thread, i'm hoping to do 2:50 in dublin, previous best is 3:41 but i've been concentrating on getting the 10km time down.

    i had a really nice P&D schedule drawn up in excel, complete with highlighted cells & intended pace, but's that's as far as that went.:rolleyes:

    i like the flexibility of the Daniels plan A, i should be able to stick to 2 sessions per week. i see the first few sessions are 4 min Hard, what pace would that be for a 2:50 marathon?
    Says in the book a pace you could hold for 10-15 mins, so somewhere slower than 3k pace and faster than 5k. Done this session myself this week at about 5k pace

    Edit: Kristy beat me ( for a change ;)) stupid phone


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    #114
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,174 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    ronnie085 wrote: »
    Says in the book a pace you could hold for 10-15 mins, so somewhere slower than 3k pace and faster than 5k. Done this session myself this week at about 5k pace

    Edit: Kristy beat me ( for a change ;)) stupid phone

    Kristy.... That name could stick!


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    #115
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭jfh


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    I think I read in the pages before the plan, that 'hard' is the perceived effort of what you could race for 15 minutes, so should ideally be faster than 5k pace. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Last night I did a couple of reps of these, and they were around 10k pace. As long as they are around (or faster than) your threshold pace, you'll be grand, as they're just part of the building phase.

    BTW: Daniels is all about running at a pace based on a recent race result (vdot), so you shouldn't base your pace on your marathon target, but rather on a recent race performance.

    the VDOT is 59 going on a 10km last weekend, so a little faster that 3:25 km?


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    #116
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭jfh


    ronnie085 wrote: »
    Says in the book a pace you could hold for 10-15 mins, so somewhere slower than 3k pace and faster than 5k. Done this session myself this week at about 5k pace

    Edit: Kristy beat me ( for a change ;)) stupid phone

    thanks ronnie, must pop over to your log, you're going for a more aggresive target than 2:50.


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    #117
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »

    BTW: Daniels is all about running at a pace based on a recent race result (vdot), so you shouldn't base your pace on your marathon target, but rather on a recent race performance.

    I may follow P & D, does the point about basing your training off a recent race result still stand/how important is it? I may give sub 2.50 a bash but have little road results to base my training off. Hopefully, will do some races in the lead up to gauge my target as I progress through the plan.


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    #118
    Peckham
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Peckham


    nerraw1111 wrote: »
    I may follow P & D, does the point about basing your training off a recent race result still stand/how important is it? I may give sub 2.50 a bash but have little road results to base my training off. Hopefully, will do some races in the lead up to gauge my target as I progress through the plan.

    Yes, it's all about training at the level that you're currently at, and that you only move up one level if a relevant race result indicates otherwise, and/or you've spent 6(?) weeks at that level.

    For example, I'm currently training at VDOT 56, whereas my target marathon pace is at VDOT 58. Am racing a 12k this weekend, and am hoping this will indicate that I should be moving up to VDOT 57.

    However, a recent 5k race time equates to VDOT 59, but I'm dismissing that as irrelevant (but encouraging) in the context of marathon training.


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    #119
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Peckham wrote: »
    However, a recent 5k race time equates to VDOT 59, but I'm dismissing that as irrelevant (but encouraging) in the context of marathon training.
    If you are only starting out in your marathon plan, do you not think you might be selling yourself short by basing your training on vdot of 56? I mean if the 5k course is of a verifiable length and you achieved the time, then why not start at that vdot (or at least a little closer)? Just as you shouldn't train based on an aspirational goal, you probably shouldn't under-train based on a lower than achieved vdot. As you said yourself:
    yourself wrote:
    Yes, it's all about training at the level that you're currently at
    nerraw1111 wrote:
    I may follow P & D, does the point about basing your training off a recent race result still stand/how important is it? I may give sub 2.50 a bash but have little road results to base my training off. Hopefully, will do some races in the lead up to gauge my target as I progress through the plan.
    If you had to single out one reason why parkruns are an outstanding runner's resource, this would be it. Get yourself down to a parkrun, and see what you can do over 5k. A race environment, good standard, it's free, and if you fluff it up, you can try again next week. Figure out your current level and off you go. Recovery is minimal, so should impact your training in the grand scheme of things.


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    #120
    Peckham
    Registered Users Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Peckham


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    If you are only starting out in your marathon plan, do you not think you might be selling yourself short by basing your training on vdot of 56? I mean if the 5k course is of a verifiable length and you achieved the time, then why not start at that vdot (or at least a little closer)? Just as you shouldn't train based on an aspirational goal, you probably shouldn't under-train based on a lower than achieved vdot.

    Because it was preceded by a 10k race that suggested I should be at 54 or 55! Rather than pushing myself too hard early in training (off a relatively low base), I'm playing it safe. I think Daniel's says in the book that you've to be cautious how quickly you move through the vdot levels, and not to react to every race performance.


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    #121
    Peterx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Peterx


    Signed up for Dublin. In my previous two marathons I've done 3.03 and 2.53. Another 10 minute pb would be cool but I'll settle for 5 minutes, no need to be greedy again, it was aiming for 2.40 the last time that lead to 2.53!

    So 2.48 is the goal at the moment, that will change as I either get fitter or skip sessions.

    The next 3 weeks are just about getting used to consistent running again and then 10 weeks of tiredness will follow :)

    I'm on a version of the "Minnock Method" 15 week plan which has brought a certain Barry plenty of success over his last 4 marathons.


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