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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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    #92
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    moonage wrote: »
    Perhaps it might be certain negative character traits and actions of Jews that have caused them to be disliked in, and often expelled from, their host countries over millennia.

    Sometimes a dislike or hatred for a people might have a rational basis.

    Holy ****

    Can you give examples of these "character traits"?


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    #93
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    moonage wrote: »
    Perhaps it might be certain negative character traits and actions of Jews that have caused them to be disliked in, and often expelled from, their host countries over millennia.

    Sometimes a dislike or hatred for a people might have a rational basis.

    Ah yes, you're the guy who recently posted on a book thread about how it's all propaganda in relation to WW2.......... God, how does it feel to be such an utterly terrible and ignorant person?


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    #94
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    1641 wrote: »
    The Irish famine was a tragedy marked by gross government mismanagement, negligence and considerable indifference. It has left a long scar on the Irish. But it is not comparable to the Holocaust - and the Irish are not facing a rising tide of vile prejudice across Europe.

    Holocaust denier!


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    #95
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Berserker wrote: »
    Using them for their cash, money that they have plenty of. If we had a monument here that they all decided to flock to in their droves, we'd take their money also. Knew evangelical Christians in Houston who sent part of their tithe, first 10% of their income, to Israel, via their church. Fools and their money .... Plenty of things to criticise Bibi for, wouldn't blame him for doing that.


    I can definitely understand why he does it, for all those reasons. But I don't think it's a good idea to take money and support from people who are providing it in the hope of destroying the entire world, starting with you. It's also weird in that the evangelical position is that the jews will either convert or go to hell on the last days

    And I really hope it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass once these people don't get their apocalypse.


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    #96
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Not sure about 'no(w) mostly' Muslims. The far right and lefty radical types you mention likely claim to be part of religious groups, and there's plenty of antisemitism still coming from so-called Christian groups. Ilhan Omar may or may not be antisemitic, I'm willing to give her benefit of the doubt right now, she's said nothing worse than, say, George W. Bush or Donald Trump (Trump recently said "Your prime minister" when talking about Netanyahu at a Republican Jewish event.)

    But the rise in antisemitism in Europe (this thread) isn't due to Moslem's in Europe. It's the good-old Christian-rooted antisemitism rampant in Eastern Europe (cf. the OP talking about Jews in Romania). Not sure if it's a rise, exactly - it's never gone away, even the horrors of the Holocaust aren't enough to dissuade the haters.

    The rise in anti-semitism in France has been predominantly as a result of Islamic fundamentalism. 12 anti-semetic killings since 2003 in France have been carried out by Islamic terrorists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/27/how-the-murders-of-two-elderly-jewish-women-shook-france-antisemitism-mireille-knoll-sarah-halimi

    There needs to be a stronger push to discourage that misogynistic and medieval religion, let it go the way of modern Catholicism.


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    #97
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Assetbacked wrote:
    The rise in anti-semitism in France has been predominantly as a result of Islamic fundamentalism. 12 anti-semetic killings since 2003 in France have been carried out by Islamic terrorists


    Well, there has been some on this thread and I'm pretty sure they are not Islamic.


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    #98
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    batgoat wrote: »
    Ah yes, you're the guy who recently posted on a book thread about how it's all propaganda in relation to WW2...

    I did post about a book on Germany and the world wars:

    "The Myth of German Villainy" by Benton L. Bradberry.

    It shows, amongst other things, the significant influence of Jews in both wars.


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    #99
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    moonage wrote: »
    I did post about a book on Germany and the world wars:

    "The Myth of German Villainy" by Benton L. Bradberry.

    It shows, amongst other things, the significant influence of Jews in both wars.

    Which begs the questions, what do you think happened to Jews in Germany during the 30's/40's and why did it happen? do you think they later exaggerated it?

    You also mentioned earlier that Jews had certain "character traits", what do you mean by that?


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    #100
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Of course it is growing. And in some instances, it is being supported tacitly by politicians.

    Look at the Labour Party in the UK? Riven with Anti-Semitism that "Dear Leader" refuses to deal with. He had the chance years ago to get tough and nip it in the bud but chose to whitewash it by commissioning the Sham(i) Report that spent more time moaning about Islamophobia than Anti-Semitism!


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    #101
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,246 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Most antisemitism today in Europe is from the latest or Islam.


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    #102
    moonage
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Which begs the questions, what do you think happened to Jews in Germany during the 30's/40's and why did it happen? do you think they later exaggerated it?

    Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, not by mass extermination but by mass deportation. Even before the war had started most had already left in an orderly fashion, facilitated by the government. The Transfer Agreement of 1933 meant that many ended up in Palestine.

    During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You also mentioned earlier that Jews had certain "character traits", what do you mean by that?

    See post #54.


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    #103
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    Jesus Christ. Baffling rewriting of history here.


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    #104
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    I'd say most people have zero problem with Jew's, Jewish culture, traditions etc. They just have a serious problem with that apartheid State we call Israel. You can be anti-israeli government and not be anti-Semitic

    Does this work with South Africans ? Genuine question.


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    #105
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    1641 wrote: »
    I don't know where you got your figures from. The 6 million Jewish deaths represented about 2/3 of the total Jewish population of Europe. Also the deaths were by organised, pre-meditated industrial scale homicide based on demonic, anti-semetic prejudices and conspiracy theories. Those same prejudices and conspiracy theories are once again manifesting across Europe.

    Ten years earlier noone would have believed that those prejudices would have quickly translated into genocide. Their rise again needs to be taken seriously.


    The Irish famine was a tragedy marked by gross government mismanagement, negligence and considerable indifference. It has left a long scar on the Irish. But it is not comparable to the Holocaust - and the Irish are not facing a rising tide of vile prejudice across Europe.

    There were two.


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    #106
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,741 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    moonage wrote: »

    During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

    With respect, this is bollocks.


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    #107
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    1641 wrote: »
    What exactly are you talking about here? Israel not having a right to exist or the settlements.

    I'm talking about the settlements. There is literally nothing that can ever justify their existence.

    With regard to Israel's 'right to exist', personally I believe that it does have this right because the people who live there have now done so for multiple generations, and it would be incredibly unfair to those born into the state and alive there today to simply dissolve the state. However, given that the very existence of the state to begin with stems from an act of partition by the British empire following their usual bullsh!t of using violence to take control of territory miles away from their homeland and then royally f*cking life up for the inhabitants, I don't see it as this unquestionable sacred cow that so many do. If someone believes that Israel does not have a 'right to exist' because they do not believe in legitimising the actions of the British Empire in conquering foreign lands, I personally don't agree with them purely because I believe it to be unfair to the descendants of those alive at the time (much like how I genuinely wouldn't be happy to see a United Ireland unless a majority of Northern Ireland's citizens voted in favour of it) - but it's a perfectly valid and legitimate political viewpoint to have. It does not make an individual anti-semitic to question the legitimacy of a state founded entirely on the back of British colonialism.
    I certainly agree that Israel whould do more to make peace. But are they ever going to be left in peace? Iran has declared an intention to "wipe them off the face of the map". In 2017 Hamas's Mahmoud al-Zahar said:
    “We have liberated Gaza, part of Palestine, but I am not prepared to accept just Gaza,” he said.
    “Our position is: Palestine in its entirety, and not a grain of soil less,” added Zahar, a former Hamas foreign minister. “Allah did not define the 1967 borders or the 1948 borders. We will fight them wherever we can — on the ground, underground, and if we have airplanes, we will fight them from the skies.”


    It is hard to make peace with that - at least you can understand the suspicion, skepticism and caution.

    Of course I do, but again: Nothing justifies driving civilians from their homes by military force. Ever. Israel does not have any moral right to one square centimetre of land outside its internationally recognised border, nor does it have any moral right to literally bulldoze civilian homes in the occupied territories as a reprisal for someone's family member being a terrorist. How anyone could justify this is totally beyond me - especially in a country in which reprisals against civilians caused so much bloodshed and misery when practised by the British Army. It's absolutely inexcusable, and nothing can change that. Even if someone literally detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Tel Aviv, it still wouldn't justify innocent members of his or her family losing their home because the Israeli government decided to take revenge on them, and not just on the specific individual responsible.
    Anyway this is middle eastern politics. Nothing in it justifies current European anti-semitism.

    The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.


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    #108
    The Highwayman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭The Highwayman


    I've often wondered about the history of anti semitism and the fact its goes back through history for thousands of years from 800 BC to the modern day

    Here's the wiki

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews

    Jews have been expelled form European countries for up to 500 years. What is the reason? Different people, different cultures, different times in history all reacting the same way.

    If you meet an a**hole in the morning, you've met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, then you're the a**hole.


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    #109
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    moonage wrote: »
    The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
    It says a lot that I'm not remotely surprised to be reading Holocaust denials on After Hours, at this point.


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    #110
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    moonage wrote: »
    During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

    Even if we use your logic, millions of Jews and Poles died in these "labour" camps.

    Have you been to Auschwitz-Birkenau? Most of the prisoners were kept in horse stables, and weren't fed properly, so many died from the cold and starvation.

    Then of course there was the gassings.

    So I can accept perhaps most of the people died from the cold and starvation, but does it really matter?


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    #111
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    moonage wrote: »
    Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, not by mass extermination but by mass deportation. Even before the war had started most had already left in an orderly fashion, facilitated by the government. The Transfer Agreement of 1933 meant that many ended up in Palestine.

    During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

    You are stating this as fact, but none of the above is true, you do know that right?


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    #112
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,954 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

    One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

    Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.


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    #113
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,954 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.

    The issue here, is Europe and the rise of antisemitism there. Personally don't think it's a rise, it's just a continuation of antisemitic tendencies in European character, driven by politics and religion. Nothing to do with settlements - you can complain about settlements and Israeli government policy all you want, that has nothing to do with painting swastikas on headstones in Romania.


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    #114
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,362 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

    In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.


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    #115
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
    Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
    I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.


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    #116
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

    In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.

    This is true.

    It also works on a micro level.

    When you're in a group of people in work, or on holidays, they need someone to point their aggression at.

    One of the things I've learned is play things straight until the scapegoat has been chosen by the group.


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    #117
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Mod

    Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.


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    #118
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
    Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
    I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.


    Of course its ok to criticise Israeli policies and actions. I suspect that the term "anti-zionism" is often a code for anti-semitism or a denial of Israel's right to exist. Not all who espouse anti-zionism are anti-semitic but all anti-semites are anti-zionist - it gives them a "respectible" place to hide. Lots of the attacks in Europe have been cloaked in "anti-zionism". They are no different to the attacks that used to happen before Zionism was born.



    People rarely criticise the likes of Hamas the way they criticise Israel - even though they (Hamas) make little effort to conceal their desire to deal with the "Jews" in the most bloodthirsty way.That is not to mention their treatment of their own people and their violent repression of any dissent. And their is no justice system to appeal to, no "natural justice", no "human rights.


    I think lots of people who criticise Israel are genuinely motivated. But the larger movement is heavily infiltrated with anti-semites who use it as convenient cover.


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    #119
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Igotadose wrote: »
    For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

    One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

    Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.
    Straight out of the gate I am no Holocaust denier, it is beyond clear that there was a concerted campaign of demonisation and the "removal" by any means necessary towards Jews and other "undesirables" across fascist Europe in that time period and millions were displaced, worked to death and murdered because of it.

    However I'm always concerned when it's stated that there's no debate around history and historical events(there are a couple of rebuttals in that link that could be viewed just as debatable as the denials). Doubly so when it's wrapped up in politics of all kinds. Triply so when it's illegal in some jurisdictions to debate it. That's not far off declaring a heresy in religious terms. No history should fear debate. And there are some issues in the details. Take for example official eye witness accounts of gas chambers at Belsen, a horror that was still in play when western allies and their press and researchers showed up, where they recorded no gas chambers or any of that.

    WW2 was a strange war in some ways. The propaganda machine never really switched off after it. Few today would be aware of over a million German men died from exposure, starvation and execution in Allied camps after the war. Never mind the "cleansing" of the old regimes across previously fascist Europe. Well it doesn't suit the post war narrative. People want to see the Spitfires flying over the white cliffs of Dover(commemorating a battle the British would have had a hard time losing).

    Hard to fathom today, but even the systematic persecution of the Jews, or the wholesale displacement and butchery of the Slavs wasn't discussed in the post war years, because of the new politics of the rise of the Iron Curtain and the requirement for a de Nazied Germany to be a European buffer against it. It wasn't until one Dr Raul Hilberg wrote pretty much the definitive book on the Holocaust as part of his doctoral theses in the late 50's that the historical narrative was collected in one place(a book well worth reading). Even then it was very much resisted. Even the Israeli Holocaust memorial organisation were wary of it and distanced themselves from it. Publisher after publisher turned his book down and it was finally published by a small printing house in a tiny run with private money behind it. And that was in the early 60's. It would be the late 60's early 70's before it got widespread attention and it didn't get printed in German until the 80's.

    The politics also shaped the horror in generational minds too. Because Auschwitz lay behind the Iron Curtain(along with other extermination camps) Belsen on the Western side had been the horror for a generation, the others only really gaining in the public mind as the Soviet Union fell. Today most people under say 60 would think of Auschwitz way before Belsen. It also helps that Auschwitz remained more intact so that horror has a focus whereas Belsen was burnt and bulldozed into the ground.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #120
    Count Down
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Count Down


    Pter wrote: »
    Mod

    Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.
    Why, what's he said? :confused:


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    #121
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Wibbs wrote: »
    that.

    The politics also shaped the horror in generational minds too. Because Auschwitz lay behind the Iron Curtain(along with other extermination camps) Belsen on the Western side had been the horror for a generation, the others only really gaining in the public mind as the Soviet Union fell. Today most people under say 60 would think of Auschwitz way before Belsen. It also helps that Auschwitz remained more intact so that horror has a focus whereas Belsen was burnt and bulldozed into the ground.


    Have to disagree with you on this one. I am of the generation you describe and Auschwitz was very much known - more so than Belsen. Perhaps in the immediate post war generation in the West, Belsen was may have been better known by way of word of mouth from war veterans. But Auschwitz became well known through survivor accounts in books. "Five Chimneys" by Olga Lengyel was in wide circulation back them and deeply affected people. That is not to mention the superb (but challenging and disturbing) "If this is a Man" by Primo Levi. As much meditative as descriptive,it is a must read, in my opinion.


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