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Old House Heat Loss

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  • 03-02-2019 5:18pm
    #1
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭


    We have a house built in the early seventies. The windows look to be in good condition (double glazed), don't know how old they are and I can see from the walls they were pumped with insulation, roof is also insulated.

    The issue is the house is cold an hour after the heat goes off, it just doesn't seem to hold the heat and I have no idea where to start. The BER when be bought it didn't give much info.


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    #2
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    We have a house built in the early seventies. The windows look to be in good condition (double glazed), don't know how old they are and I can see from the walls they were pumped with insulation, roof is also insulated.

    The issue is the house is cold an hour after the heat goes off, it just doesn't seem to hold the heat and I have no idea where to start. The BER when be bought it didn't give much info.

    Get an energy inspector in to do an assessment for improving your energy performance. The SEAI will have a list of suitable people in your area. They will also advise you on grants available.

    I’d say more insulation on your walls is needed - either through insulated plasterboard panels on the inside or by having the house externally insulated. You could be losing a lot of heat through your front/back door. An open fire is also a disaster.


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    #3
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Decent draught proofing can be the biggest bang for your buck,..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #4
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Decent draught proofing can be the biggest bang for your buck,..

    That was the advice in the 1980s


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    #5
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Poll Dubh wrote: »
    insulated plasterboard panels on the inside
    Poll Dubh wrote: »
    That was the advice in the 1980s
    .


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    #6
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Keithod11


    Poll Dubh wrote: »
    Get an energy inspector in to do an assessment for improving your energy performance.

    Might be a stupid question but would this be someone who does a BER?


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    #7
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    Might be a stupid question but would this be someone who does a BER?

    Not necessarily

    Many people who do BERs are not energy consultants....

    But most, if not all, energy consultants are BER assessors.

    Google is your friend here


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    #8
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    Might be a stupid question but would this be someone who does a BER?

    The term SEAI uses is 'Registered Technical Advisor'. I had to get one of these guys in to assess whether my house was suitable for a heat pump grant. A list of them is on this document:

    https://www.seai.ie/resources/find-a-registered-professional/SEAI-Registered-Technical-Advisors.pdf


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    #9
    denismc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭denismc


    I would also recommend getting an energy survey done, I had one done a few years ago.
    Basically the engineer turned on the heating and went around the house with an infra-red camera which showed up quite a few cold spots.
    The second part of the survey involved an air-tightness test which shows up any draughts and air leakage which was very informative.
    It cost about 400 euro but it saved me a lot more by pinpointing exactly where my heat losses where greatest.

    Btw your BER should have come with a comprehensive report, I think you can ask the SEAI for the report if you have the BER number


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    #10
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    denismc wrote: »

    Btw your BER should have come with a comprehensive report, I think you can ask the SEAI for the report if you have the BER number

    i absolutely wouldnt describe the advisory report as "comprehensive"

    its a generic document auto-complied by the software in which the assessor has no input into..... personally id consider it next to useless


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    #11
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    We have a house built in the early seventies. The windows look to be in good condition (double glazed), don't know how old they are and I can see from the walls they were pumped with insulation, roof is also insulated.

    The issue is the house is cold an hour after the heat goes off, it just doesn't seem to hold the heat and I have no idea where to start. The BER when be bought it didn't give much info.

    How old are the windows? Need to figure this out really.

    Are your external doors pvc?

    Had someone look at our windows and doors, and while double glazed the frames are as good as hollow, and no argon.

    PVC door we have is as good as hollow, so will likely replace.

    Get your windows serviced anyway.

    A cheap way to start is get one of these.

    BLACK+DECKER TLD100 Thermal Leak Detector https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0044R87BE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_s1kwCbFQW6A2E


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    #12
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    ravendude wrote: »
    How old are the windows? Need to figure this out really.

    Are your external doors pvc?

    Had someone look at our windows and doors, and while double glazed the frames are as good as hollow, and no argon.

    PVC door we have is as good as hollow, so will likely replace.

    Get your windows serviced anyway.

    A cheap way to start is get one of these.

    BLACK+DECKER TLD100 Thermal Leak Detector https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0044R87BE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_s1kwCbFQW6A2E

    Seals and hinges may be worn on your windows. Check for draughts on a windy day with your fingers around all seals and around edges of the frames.


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    #13
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Keithod11


    Its pvc windows and doors, no idea how old though, I would think quiet a while.I will get someone to have a look, just wanted a starting point.


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    #14
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The manufacturing date of double glazed windows is usually imprinted on the aluminium between the two panes. Often at the bottom or up one side.


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    #15
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    Water John wrote: »
    The manufacturing date of double glazed windows is usually imprinted on the aluminium between the two panes. Often at the bottom or up one side.

    Great info...thanks!


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    #16
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    368100 wrote: »
    Great info...thanks!

    What temperature do you get on the thermo when you have the heating on for a while? We used to set our thermo too low I think, at around 19. If you lose a degree or 2 you really notice it. Setting the thermo to 20.5 i dont think there is much difference on our bills, but after the house built up to a base temperature it feels like it loses much less heat. I guess a degree or sp loss and it doesn't feel freezing.


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    #17
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Where the family spends the evening should be about 21 C, working areas 18 C.


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    #18
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    ravendude wrote: »
    What temperature do you get on the thermo when you have the heating on for a while? We used to set our thermo too low I think, at around 19. If you lose a degree or 2 you really notice it. Setting the thermo to 20.5 i dont think there is much difference on our bills, but after the house built up to a base temperature it feels like it loses much less heat. I guess a degree or sp loss and it doesn't feel freezing.

    Can't answer that as I'm just in middle of buying a house that was built in 1980......original windows were replaced with double glaze so that too might help me find out when that was done.


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    #19
    madmaggie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    Hi OP, as someone else said, check the seals on windows and doors. How much insulation do you have in the attic? Do you have open fireplaces? Thread title of "Old house" caught my eye, as my house is over 200 years old! I put in double glazing, 300 mm insulation in the attic, insulated internal walls, piped and lined the chimney, fitted two stoves. The lowest temp in the morning is usually 19 degrees, before I light the stove. In the evening, about 23 in the living room, and 18 in the bedrooms.


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    #20
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Keithod11


    ravendude wrote: »
    What temperature do you get on the thermo when you have the heating on for a while? We used to set our thermo too low I think, at around 19. If you lose a degree or 2 you really notice it. Setting the thermo to 20.5 i dont think there is much difference on our bills, but after the house built up to a base temperature it feels like it loses much less heat. I guess a degree or sp loss and it doesn't feel freezing.


    This could be an issue, don't have a thermo, just a dial you turn up or down on the boiler. The attic insulation is good I think, there are boards a few inches thick.


    We put a stove in to replace an open fire when we moved in.


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    #21
    madmaggie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    This could be an issue, don't have a thermo, just a dial you turn up or down on the boiler. The attic insulation is good I think, there are boards a few inches thick.


    We put a stove in to replace an open fire when we moved in.

    Sorry, I don't understand about the boards in the attic. Do you mean the rigid insulation? I have rockwool, one foot deep between the joists. I also put reflective sheets behind the radiators, though in truth I don't know if they really do much. Even little holes, like plumbers fail to fill in around pipes can let in quite a draught.


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    #22
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Keithod11


    madmaggie wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't understand about the boards in the attic. Do you mean the rigid insulation

    Yes the attic insulation is solid boards.


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    #23
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    We have a house built in the early seventies. The windows look to be in good condition (double glazed), don't know how old they are and I can see from the walls they were pumped with insulation, roof is also insulated.

    The issue is the house is cold an hour after the heat goes off, it just doesn't seem to hold the heat and I have no idea where to start. The BER when be bought it didn't give much info.

    We have the exact same issue. We're doing a small extension/existing house refurm and need to focus on prioritising, maximising cost/impact benefit while addressing the must do's. It's looking a bit like this:
    • Floating Wooden Floors ground level - wind whisltes up through these, the plan is to leave floors as they are, put airtight membrane on top and lay new flooring on top, we have high ceilings so loss of a few CMs not an issue, plan to do this throughout ground floor so no issues with levels. Compromise - not lifting existing flooring to put down insulation between joists as limited cost/benefit analysis. I know people won't agree here!!
    • Heatloss through roof - insulate from the inside. Again, we have high ceilings so not worried about the loss of height in bedrooms. We also have slopey ceilings to the walls (not sure what this is called) so need to do some non-attic based insulation anyhow. Need to re-wire so this is giving us new ceilings.
    • Windows - we have older double glazed, they seem ok. Will probably re-seal the south facing ones as part of the refurb. Will put new triple glazed on all windows/doors that are north facing
    • Walls - we're end of terrace, new extension going on gable end is West facing. Internal insulation on anything north facing and not covered by extension that is west facing. Leave south facing as is.

    Architect to do the detailing, including dealing with cold bridges, vapour barrier etc.

    My one slight niggle I'm not 100% convinced about is not doing insulation under the existing floor at ground level, any extension will be concrete with good insulation. Also, probably not going to do a lot with renewables, i.e. no panels, no heat pumps, no MVHR. It's just too expensive up front.


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    #24
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    From your house and works description I would look at digging down the floor, put in 150mm insulation on top of base with UFH and slab/screed. You can run the UFH with existing heat source.
    UFH is especially suitable where you have high ceilings.
    With a refurb, it's the only time you can get the floor right. One can always come back and improve walls and ceilings.


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    #25
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Water John wrote: »
    From your house and works description I would look at digging down the floor, put in 150mm insulation on top of base with UFH and slab/screed. You can run the UFH with existing heat source.
    UFH is especially suitable where you have high ceilings.
    With a refurb, it's the only time you can get the floor right. One can always come back and improve walls and ceilings.

    Thanks for the input. Refurb includes new boiler, just as an FYI.

    I'm not convinced UFH is the right option for us. We tend to be out early morning until mid/late afternoon, so only need heat for short period in the morning and then in the evening. All things being equal I would prefer UFH, but I don't like that UFH working at its optimum is slow to heat/slow to cool when we need the exact opposite. I also like the functionality of hitting switch (or Nest remotely) and knowing the house will be heating up quickly.

    The cost savings in not ripping up & disposing old floor, not back filling voids & pouring concrete, not plumbing for UFH etc seem pretty compelling, if perhaps a little shortsighted. The other consideration is that we have adjoining sitting/dining rooms, but the extension only joins the dining room. So the sitting room & hall would not be getting the UFH treatment even if we went with it for the extension part.

    May end up getting the either/or costed by the QS to see what he comes up with.


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    #26
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    We have the exact same issue. We're doing a small extension/existing house refurm and need to focus on prioritising, maximising cost/impact benefit while addressing the must do's. It's looking a bit like this:
    • Floating Wooden Floors ground level - wind whisltes up through these, the plan is to leave floors as they are, put airtight membrane on top and lay new flooring on top, we have high ceilings so loss of a few CMs not an issue, plan to do this throughout ground floor so no issues with levels. Compromise - not lifting existing flooring to put down insulation between joists as limited cost/benefit analysis. I know people won't agree here!!
    • Heatloss through roof - insulate from the inside. Again, we have high ceilings so not worried about the loss of height in bedrooms. We also have slopey ceilings to the walls (not sure what this is called) so need to do some non-attic based insulation anyhow. Need to re-wire so this is giving us new ceilings.
    • Windows - we have older double glazed, they seem ok. Will probably re-seal the south facing ones as part of the refurb. Will put new triple glazed on all windows/doors that are north facing
    • Walls - we're end of terrace, new extension going on gable end is West facing. Internal insulation on anything north facing and not covered by extension that is west facing. Leave south facing as is.

    Architect to do the detailing, including dealing with cold bridges, vapour barrier etc.

    My one slight niggle I'm not 100% convinced about is not doing insulation under the existing floor at ground level, any extension will be concrete with good insulation. Also, probably not going to do a lot with renewables, i.e. no panels, no heat pumps, no MVHR. It's just too expensive up front.

    Disagree with all approaches listed in above bullet points
    Hope the arch will be pointing flaws out as part of thermal bridging details


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    #27
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭ravendude


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    We have the exact same issue. We're doing a small extension/existing house refurm and need to focus on prioritising, maximising cost/impact benefit while addressing the must do's. It's looking a bit like this:
    • Floating Wooden Floors ground level - wind whisltes up through these, the plan is to leave floors as they are, put airtight membrane on top and lay new flooring on top, we have high ceilings so loss of a few CMs not an issue, plan to do this throughout ground floor so no issues with levels. Compromise - not lifting existing flooring to put down insulation between joists as limited cost/benefit analysis. I know people won't agree here!!
    • Heatloss through roof - insulate from the inside. Again, we have high ceilings so not worried about the loss of height in bedrooms. We also have slopey ceilings to the walls (not sure what this is called) so need to do some non-attic based insulation anyhow. Need to re-wire so this is giving us new ceilings.
    • Windows - we have older double glazed, they seem ok. Will probably re-seal the south facing ones as part of the refurb. Will put new triple glazed on all windows/doors that are north facing
    • Walls - we're end of terrace, new extension going on gable end is West facing. Internal insulation on anything north facing and not covered by extension that is west facing. Leave south facing as is.

    Architect to do the detailing, including dealing with cold bridges, vapour barrier etc.

    My one slight niggle I'm not 100% convinced about is not doing insulation under the existing floor at ground level, any extension will be concrete with good insulation. Also, probably not going to do a lot with renewables, i.e. no panels, no heat pumps, no MVHR. It's just too expensive up front.

    Are you gas? If so its well worth going for a condensing boiler.
    Re. the roof, do you have an attic? Mineral wool etc. would be the better option surely if so.

    Don't forget your doors, - they can be shocking.

    "we have older double glazed, they seem ok" - My double glazed seem OK, but as per the heat meter they are shocking. ie. Frames are basically hollow plastic and air between the glazing, so you have basically a little thin pvc and glass, air, and more thin pvc and glass on the other side.

    Doing a similar extension/renovation also, - in the process of looking into windows. Will def put triple glaze in a cold sunroom and north side.
    Undecided about the rest.

    Is there any consensus about putting in triple glazed in non new-build? Some say it is a waste of money.


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    #28
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Gas, yes. Will be getting a condensing boiler. Actually have one already but its 10 years old so thinking about replacing, not 100% sure.

    Attic is a bit of a disaster, it's a very old roof, no roof felt, 1920s tile, so the wind whistles through. If we were to use rock wool in the attic would it be effective with so much draught? We also use the attic as storage, partially anyhow. I did a DIY effort with rock wool years ago but not sure how effective it was. We're already going to have to insulate from inside the bedrooms on the slopey part because there is no clearance attic side for insulation, so it was really just an idea I had.

    It's an old house, stained glass windows/old front door. We have a porch but wife wants to get rid. That's the only door that is staying, all other doors being replaced as part of the renovation. May take BryanF note on board re being completely wrong on all counts and replace the south facing windows, but if I have to trim costs, the south facing windows are not draughty and match the row of neighbours, so they will be staying.

    Anyhow, detailing yet to be done with architect. He was the one to say not to bother with insulation under floor on the ground of cost benefit. I am tempted to rip up hall/sitting/dining and back fill, screed, underfloor, but it's a massive task and will probably add 15k or therabouts.

    What do people think about UFH with our profile of not being at home all that much? If we were insulating our house to the max and going nuts with airtightness I could see that maybe having low heat on a lot of the time, and very little heat loss, would be really nice. But we have several open chimneys, heat loss is going to be an issue. I don't want massive heating bills with running UFH all the time.


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    #29
    Keithod11
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Keithod11


    Water John wrote: »
    The manufacturing date of double glazed windows is usually imprinted on the aluminium between the two panes. Often at the bottom or up one side.

    You were right, the windows were made in 2001, would that be considered old for windows?


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    #30
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Keithod11 wrote: »
    You were right, the windows were made in 2001, would that be considered old for windows?

    Yes. Especially pvc.

    Post 2004 all windows were supposed to have a low d coating applied.

    Unlikely to be applied to pre 2004 windows


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    #31
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I doubt they'd be high on your refurb list. Have a list of works with the most beneficial at the top. It then is equally about your budget.


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