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what is wicca ?

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  • #32
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_Wicca#Origins_and_history



    As you can see it's a bit of both and all Alexandrian's trace their lineage back to Alex Sander, the same way all Gardnerians trace their lineage back to Gerald Gardner.

    So do Wiccans worship the old pre-Christian Irish gods like Crom Cruach or Lu?


  • #33
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    So do Wiccans worship the old pre-Christian Irish gods like Crom Cruach or Lu?

    Wiccan's wont 'worship' Gods they work with Them and have a relationship with Them. The Gods of the Wicca are a God and Goddess.
    That does not how ever preclude those who are Wiccan working with other Gods if and when it is appropriate.


  • #34
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Wiccan's wont 'worship' Gods they work with Them and have a relationship with Them. The Gods of the Wicca are a God and Goddess.
    That does not how ever preclude those who are Wiccan working with other Gods if and when it is appropriate.

    Apologies, Thaedydal, I didn't know that!

    It's just an interesting topic to me.

    Who are the God/Godess of Wicca?

    What would be your view of pre-christian Irish gods, do they have validity or status in Wicca?

    I suppose what I'm asking is, is there a Celtic dimension to Wicca?


  • #35
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    So do Wiccans worship the old pre-Christian Irish gods like Crom Cruach or Lu?

    It depends on the individuals to be honest. There is no be all and end all,even in a trad. People will claim to be part of a trad but bring little things in and out of it. There are some people who will follow one way to the letter or there are those that are very free flowing with interpretations. Just like anything really.


  • #36
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Nerin wrote: »
    It depends on the individuals to be honest. There is no be all and end all,even in a trad. People will claim to be part of a trad but bring little things in and out of it. There are some people who will follow one way to the letter or there are those that are very free flowing with interpretations. Just like anything really.

    Certainly a different approach to religion though, rather than the rigid orthodoxy imposed by the mainstream Churches


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  • #37
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Certainly a different approach to religion though, rather than the rigid orthodoxy imposed by the mainstream Churches

    Well it is and it isn't. Remember,its still humans involved in all this,so egos and mistakes are never far behind. You can have very loose liberal "hippy drippy" christian groups as well as ultra right groups too. Same can happen in the wiccan world. Take Gardner for example, two very close friends of mine when i was growing up were on the opposite sides in opinions of him. One thought him a genius,the other that he was full of it. While wicca is more open and liberal than some other faiths, you will come across vast differences of opinion and thought :)


  • #38
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Apologies, Thaedydal, I didn't know that!

    It's just an interesting topic to me.

    Oh I'm not offended at all.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Who are the God/Godess of Wicca?

    That I can't answer, sorry but it's one of the things which is Oath bound.
    If a person is called to Wicca then they get to know them.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    What would be your view of pre-christian Irish gods, do they have validity or status in Wicca?

    What do you mean by validity?
    Gods are Gods, some Gods I have no dealings with and they have no impact on me in my life and they are Gods even if they are not my Gods.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    I suppose what I'm asking is, is there a Celtic dimension to Wicca?

    What do you mean by Celtic/celtic?
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Certainly a different approach to religion though, rather than the rigid orthodoxy imposed by the mainstream Churches

    There is no orthodoxy in Wicca, but there is orthopraxy.


  • #39
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Nerin wrote: »
    Well it is and it isn't. Remember,its still humans involved in all this,so egos and mistakes are never far behind. You can have very loose liberal "hippy drippy" christian groups as well as ultra right groups too. Same can happen in the wiccan world. Take Gardner for example, two very close friends of mine when i was growing up were on the opposite sides in opinions of him. One thought him a genius,the other that he was full of it. While wicca is more open and liberal than some other faiths, you will come across vast differences of opinion and thought :)

    Well it seems that any religion established by humans, will at some point diverge into opposite camps who both believe they are the true keepers of the faith!


  • #40
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Oh I'm not offended at all.



    That I can't answer, sorry but it's one of the things which is Oath bound.
    If a person is called to Wicca then they get to know them.



    What do you mean by validity?
    Gods are Gods, some Gods I have no dealings with and they have no impact on me in my life and they are Gods even if they are not my Gods.



    What do you mean by Celtic/celtic?



    There is no orthodoxy in Wicca, but there is orthopraxy.

    Well I can respect an oath, I had heard of a Horned God or some such but I'll have to wait I guess!

    By validity I mean are they part of the pantheon of pagan Gods, eg, Hindu Gods have no validity in Catholicism obviously....do you believe in them for want of a better word?

    By Celtic I mean the indiginous Gaelic culture of this island and parts of the neighbouring one, dating back thousands of years....

    Othopraxy?


  • #41
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    There are striking similarities between many cultures and their gods,it would boil down in most cases to personal preferences. Celtic faith is present in wicca, through festivals and themes. Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Celtic gods would be fairly popular. One could refer to the horned male god aspect as Cernunnos,Pan,etc etc


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  • #42
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Well I can respect an oath, I had heard of a Horned God or some such but I'll have to wait I guess!

    By validity I mean are they part of the pantheon of pagan Gods, eg, Hindu Gods have no validity in Catholicism obviously....do you believe in them for want of a better word?

    There is no generic pantheon of pagan Gods, each pantheon comes from a certain culture. Personally I think mixing and matching gods from different pantheons and cultures to be not a wise thing to do.

    The Judaic religions hold that there is only one God and others are not "valid".
    They may be not "valid" for those of that religion but that does not mean those who are not members/followers of the Judaic religions view this in the same way.

    Personally I don't believe in Gods, I don't need to, they exist with me believing in them.
    Do I acknowledge that there are many different Gods? Yes.
    Do I worship any of them? No.
    Do I work with some of them? Yes.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    By Celtic I mean the indiginous Gaelic culture of this island and parts of the neighbouring one, dating back thousands of years....

    I would say that Celtic and Gaelic are two different things and that the Celts
    weren't indigenous to here to begin with. The Celts were a collection of very different tribes with their own culture which all originated in central Europe and arrived in one of the many waves of invaders as chronically in the book of invasions.

    Wicca comes from the New forest area in southern England.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Othopraxy?

    Right action rather then right thinking.
    Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, when a person under goes the rites in the proper manner through orthopraxy they are exposed to certain experiences and undergoing them is part of under going the mysteries.
    People undergoing the mystery s properly will lead them to know and think in a certain way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy#Neopaganism
    British Traditional Wicca is highly orthopraxic, with "traditions" (as denominations in Wicca are called) being precisely that - defined by what is traditionally done, rather than shared beliefs.


  • #43
    Urizen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭Urizen


    Nerin wrote: »
    Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Celtic gods would be fairly popular

    This always rankles a bit with me. If you worship Greek Gods, as I do, you're a Hellenic Pagan. Same with Egyptian and Celtic, etc.

    In fairness, it's a vary mild annoyance, the snob in me. Just putting it out there.

    This seems the place to voice opinions. I'm pretty sure you'll agree that Wicca, of all the Neo-Pagan beliefs, tends to get the most... well, posers. People doing it because it's cool or popular or what have you. I'm wondering, how do the Wiccans here deal with it? Because, again, it'd drive me mad. Just 'live and let live'?
    In that case, what about when they actively lie about it. Examples I've heard include 'I'm Wiccan. Oh, you're Hellenic Pagan? Same thing.', 'I'm Wiccan. I worship Satan.' or my personal favorite 'Wicca is over 5000 years old.'

    I don't mean to offend anyone with this. Hell, it offends me, I want to know if I'm alone in that.


  • #44
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    No you are not alone.

    The word has been co opted and mis appropriated and most of that happened in america and was proliferated by a certain publishing house who used the word as interchangeable for witch and witchcraft.

    Which I have found to be a pretty good litmus test if someone says they are wiccan I will say oh your a witch and if they reject the word witch then they are not.
    As to if I will get into wrangling with them or not it depends on if I would be wasting my breath or just making myself narky, I am not always someone else's learning curve.

    As for those who claim to be of a certain rank in a certain tradition, the world is a small place and the internet makes it even smaller. Such a thing should not be needed unless you are looking to work with or train with a person and there are ways of finding out if someone is vouched for.

    And just because a person has a rank with in a tradition tbh it mean diddysquat outside of it and certainly confers no authority over those who are not members of their tradition.


  • #45
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    There is no generic pantheon of pagan Gods, each pantheon comes from a certain culture. Personally I think mixing and matching gods from different pantheons and cultures to be not a wise thing to do.

    The Judaic religions hold that there is only one God and others are not "valid".
    They may be not "valid" for those of that religion but that does not mean those who are not members/followers of the Judaic religions view this in the same way.

    Personally I don't believe in Gods, I don't need to, they exist with me believing in them.
    Do I acknowledge that there are many different Gods? Yes.
    Do I worship any of them? No.
    Do I work with some of them? Yes.



    I would say that Celtic and Gaelic are two different things and that the Celts
    weren't indigenous to here to begin with. The Celts were a collection of very different tribes with their own culture which all originated in central Europe and arrived in one of the many waves of invaders as chronically in the book of invasions.

    Wicca comes from the New forest area in southern England.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven



    Right action rather then right thinking.
    Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, when a person under goes the rites in the proper manner through orthopraxy they are exposed to certain experiences and undergoing them is part of under going the mysteries.
    People undergoing the mystery s properly will lead them to know and think in a certain way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy#Neopaganism

    Any connection to the old Mithradatic religions?


  • #46
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No you are not alone.

    The word has been co opted and mis appropriated and most of that happened in america and was proliferated by a certain publishing house who used the word as interchangeable for witch and witchcraft.

    Which I have found to be a pretty good litmus test if someone says they are wiccan I will say oh your a witch and if they reject the word witch then they are not.
    As to if I will get into wrangling with them or not it depends on if I would be wasting my breath or just making myself narky, I am not always someone else's learning curve.

    As for those who claim to be of a certain rank in a certain tradition, the world is a small place and the internet makes it even smaller. Such a thing should not be needed unless you are looking to work with or train with a person and there are ways of finding out if someone is vouched for.

    And just because a person has a rank with in a tradition tbh it mean diddysquat outside of it and certainly confers no authority over those who are not members of their tradition.

    How did you encounter this religion and join it?

    Accidently?

    Through college?

    Consciously sought out and studied?

    Just out of curiosity....


  • #47
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Any connection to the old Mithradatic religions?

    In what way?
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    How did you encounter this religion and join it?

    By meeting members of it while getting more invovled in my local pagan community.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Through college?

    No there wasn't a pagan soc in the college back then.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Consciously sought out and studied?

    Eventually yes, but I was seeking something, I had left the catholic church and was looking for what filled my own spiritual cup and read and researched a lot into a lot different religions and worked on developing a personal spiritual practice and a way of living my life which worked for me.

    I resisted having anything to do what what I perceived as Wicca for a very long time as most of what I read was witchcraft dumb down or pre masticated in the books which seemed to be in most bookshops.
    But in the end it's what I was called to and once I started reading the right books starting with Gerald Gardeners own publications I found a lot less fluff.

    There is a thread in this forum with a list of books which are pretty good in you are interested.
    Hugo Drax wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity....

    Curiosity is a wonderful and dangerous thing, may yours lead you to intresting places.


  • #48
    Moonspell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭Moonspell


    Urizen wrote: »
    This always rankles a bit with me. If you worship Greek Gods, as I do, you're a Hellenic Pagan. Same with Egyptian and Celtic, etc.
    In fairness, it's a vary mild annoyance, the snob in me. Just putting it out there.
    This seems the place to voice opinions. I'm pretty sure you'll agree that Wicca, of all the Neo-Pagan beliefs, tends to get the most... well, posers. People doing it because it's cool or popular or what have you. I'm wondering, how do the Wiccans here deal with it? Because, again, it'd drive me mad. Just 'live and let live'?
    In that case, what about when they actively lie about it. Examples I've heard include 'I'm Wiccan. Oh, you're Hellenic Pagan? Same thing.', 'I'm Wiccan. I worship Satan.' or my personal favorite 'Wicca is over 5000 years old.'
    I don't mean to offend anyone with this. Hell, it offends me, I want to know if I'm alone in that.

    Yes, it is annoying to see how wrongly the word can be used. I wouldn't go as far as saying offensive, but that might depend of what is being said as well. But then, I have been far more offended by people from my own tradition, so...

    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No you are not alone.
    As for those who claim to be of a certain rank in a certain tradition, the world is a small place and the internet makes it even smaller. Such a thing should not be needed unless you are looking to work with or train with a person and there are ways of finding out if someone is vouched for.

    And just because a person has a rank with in a tradition tbh it mean diddysquat outside of it and certainly confers no authority over those who are not members of their tradition.

    Even within the tradition, the fact that one has attain a certain rank does not mean that can be used, or misused for own gain, as unfortunately so often happens.


  • #49
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    There is also the fact that while a person maybe of a certain tradition, Coven's are also autonomous. Each doing their own thing as the Gods intend.

    As for failings out, they do happen.
    Those who are initiated into the priesthood of Wicca become brother and sister onto each other and frankly no one fights like family does, but we are all human and works in progress, learning what lessons we can.


  • #50
    saoirseanam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭saoirseanam


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Yes, you need to join a lineaged coven. You'll have to study with them for a year first though, I think. Outer court stuff

    This might help
    http://www.witchvox.com/vn/hm/iexx.html

    you don't need to join a lineaged coven. Ever heard of Eclectic Wicca?


  • #51
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Ever heard of an oxymoron?


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  • #52
    Urizen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭Urizen


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Ever heard of an oxymoron?

    :D


  • #53
    luna77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭luna77


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Wicca is not a catch all word for Witchcraft.
    Not all witches are pagan.
    .
    What is a non pagan witch? Would that be something like kitchen witchcraft?


  • #54
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I know christian and jewish witches, witch craft is a way of doing magic/engery work/spells and has no inherant religion needed.


  • #55
    B&from4ch&
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭B&from4ch&


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    .
    The redes are a poem which gives advice it is not law.
    There are laws which are called the ordains.


    Wicca is an Oathbound, Lineaged, cross gendered Initatory, Experiential, Mystery, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches.

    There are differing Traditions with in Wicca but they are all the same religion and stem from from a particular group of pagan witches in the New Forest area.

    A system of lineaged clergy preserves tradition for later transformation and re-introduction of the Goddess to the world. However the inevitable attachment to a concept of personal authority within a system of lineaged clergy, is little more than a bureaucratic hindrance to the dynamic cultural transformation necessary to heal the Earth and humanity's relationship to the Goddess. The wiccans quite often name themselves as the sole respectable authorities regarding wicca, but it is not the only path to a powerful and dynamic relationship with the Goddess nor is it the most experienced or authoritative.

    Authority is given by entities other than ourselves; what if there comes a new way of having this kind of dynamic and magical relationship that permits a much larger and inclusive community to have the same authority and power? What if wicca, having once been the sole water in the desert, becomes drops in an ocean? Will its adherents be able to weather this relative loss of power and authority as a result?


  • #56
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    A system of lineaged clergy preserves tradition for later transformation and re-introduction of the Goddess to the world.

    Where did you find it stated that it is/was the Purpose of Wicca to do this?
    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    However the inevitable attachment to a concept of personal authority within a system of lineaged clergy, is little more than a bureaucratic hindrance to the dynamic cultural transformation necessary to heal the Earth and humanity's relationship to the Goddess.

    Again where did you find it stated that is it the purpose of Wicca to heal the earth and introduce humanity to Goddess worship?
    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    The wiccans quite often name themselves as the sole respectable authorities regarding wicca,

    I have never heard someone who was actually Wiccan refer to themselves respectable, but someone who has not be initiate into the mystery tradition can not speak about it in an authoritative manner and those who have won't speak about the mysteries as it would be Oathbreaking.

    So while there had been many books written by those claim to be such things they are either not talking about Wicca or else if the claim to they are Oathbreakers and untrustworthy or else they are liars.
    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    but it is not the only path to a powerful and dynamic relationship with the Goddess nor is it the most experienced or authoritative.

    Which Goddess?
    There are many but there is only one in Wicca and Wicca has never claimed to be a path or anyone and everyone, there are many ways to be pagan and spiritual and connect to many Goddess' which have nothing to do with Wicca what so ever.
    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    Authority is given by entities other than ourselves; what if there comes a new way of having this kind of dynamic and magical relationship that permits a much larger and inclusive community to have the same authority and power?

    The Gods call many to them, but to be Wiccan is to be properly initiated into the mysteries by someone who had the rank and right to do so.

    A person can be pagan, a witch and a priest/ess onto their Gods with out being Wiccan.

    Wicca has never claimed to minister to large communities, there is no laity in Wicca. Wanting to have as you but it authority and power over a much larger and inclusive community is not and was not ever the remit of Wicca.


    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    What if wicca, having once been the sole water in the desert, becomes drops in an ocean?

    But Wicca was never the only pagan path, there were others long before it and there are many more now.

    B&from4ch& wrote: »
    Will its adherents be able to weather this relative loss of power and authority as a result?

    Loss of power and authority over whom?
    Wicca is a tradition in which every initiate is a priest/ess, there are no laity and every coven is autonomous. If you are not a member of a Wiccan coven then it's leaders/elders have no power or authority over you and if you are in a coven and you are not happy and can not abide then you leave


  • #57
    Gingermagic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Gingermagic


    Hail!,

    Please bear in mind this is not a judgment to any person on the board. Just voicing my opinion.

    It is not unusual for people who have moved away from christian denominations to find a close connection to the Wicca/Wiccan path. It's rituals and way of worship have a way of making that which has been ridiculed more comforting. Very much again in my opinion they way the christians adopted pagan festivals/holidays in order for an easy transition. Now before I get rained on...I am not saying that this was the intention of Gardiner or Alexander....it would seem to be an organic process. And again it is only my opinion.
    The hardest thing to do in this day and age is to walk your own path....Books, Mags, Internet and other media orientated stuff can give you all the outer information that you can devour. The difficult part is to trust your instincts. Your inner voice that in many cases has been but a mere whisper.
    Many who begin with wiccan very often move away and find another path that makes their soul sing louder. Again this is not a judgement against wicca, it has and still does assist people to explore a vibrant and magical way of being.
    I applaud those who have taken the time to write about their explorations into a more centred way of being. However the experiences that are written about are theirs, and confusion can and does set in when those who read and re-read don't have the same experiences as the author. Or even when one is told through a coven or other type of group what an experience should be, this again can be confusing....
    A person on their journey of spirituality can glean much information through reading and group work. But be aware where it makes your soul sing or where it music is dampened. Then you will know if you are on a path that supports your spirituality...

    Again this is right for me...not necessarily for others and I appreciate that!


  • #58
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    I think there is a lot of assumptions about what is Wicaa which is based of the misuse of the term to publish a ream of books which are about generic paganism and generic witchcraft which causes a lot of confusion.

    People step away from what ever faith/religion they were reared in and there are a lot of those books around so they latch on to the bits which intrest them and then self id with that term with understanding what it means.

    Llewellyn publishing has a lot to answer for.


  • #59
    x3wiggles
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭x3wiggles


    ancathach wrote: »
    My take on this thread:

    Wicca is a religion which is difficult to explain because its elements are multiple and complex.

    This all goes back to ancathach's initial quote :)

    It is what you believe. There are Wiccans who practice solitary and some who practice in covens.

    It all goes down to belief on what you study and that has to come from somewhere. For example, I study Wiccan under Ly De Angeles. As for witches, you don't decide you're a witch. You know. The craft comes to you and it shows itself. Every soul reincarnates. Once a witch, always a witch. Your soul will always be a witch no matter what form you take. Until your lessons have all been learned in other life times.

    Does anyone know of any Wiccans in Waterford?


    Blessed be.
    Lorelai


  • #60
    jasamu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭jasamu


    No not in Waterford but when I was ten years younger I was studing in UCC and there was a lecture on Shaminism and the last witch hanged in Eire (Cat's have always carried a black stripe since) of a long night in October.
    So this lad Brian from Limerick or Galway invited us back to his house for a course in in Wicca with a red headed man called Tam and a couple from what I think was the Artimis coven. We had a really good time and alas I did not become a pagen wiccian but I did learn that doing new and different things is exciting and rewardind for ones spirit.

    Hope ye find yerselfs also.

    J


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