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04-11-2018, 09:25   #31
Edward M
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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
The 'ethnicity' is not special, there are many ethnicities as you say. The 'status' is 'special' because we conferred it to aid in inclusivity and parity of esteem.
Get the image of a criminal (who should all be treated equally) out of your head for a minute and read this maybe and you will see that the status should not threaten you or anybody else.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...lers-1.2993526

It is no co-incidence that Kenny mentions the GFA in his address to the House, it also was conceived to aid inclusivness and parity of esteem and allow for 'overlapping identities', but nobody would ever suggest it makes one identity more equal than the other.

https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/New...arch_2017.html
They don't want inclusivity, that's the point lost on a good few, they tell you that themselves if you talked to them.
They want to be free to live their lives as they do and not have any interference from me and thee.
The problem is that their way of life impedes on ours and they aren't happy with our laws impeding on theirs.
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04-11-2018, 09:26   #32
Omackeral
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Originally Posted by listermint View Post
Then act like that quote. Please. Act like it.
I do.

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I've said before on here that I would treat anyone man,woman or child with the utmost respect until they give me a reason not to. That's regardless of colour, creed or faith. In fact, I work with Travellers every day that I clock in to work, for 12 hours a day. I have some fantastic craic with Travellers and some of them are amongst the most funny and good natured fellas I encounter. On a personal level, I enjoy their company tbh. However, it's a jail I work in and they aren't there via special invite.
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I must point out I do agree with this in a sense. A lot of people don't seem to care if you call them knackers and other derogatory names and I absolutely fcuking despise that. I've said as much on here for years. I hate it. There's no need for it.
Doesn't mean one can't make valid criticisms either. I agree that many are all tarred as scum before they're given a chance. I feel awful for anybody written of before they've opened their mouth. I'm also a realist though and understand why some businesses or individuals may feel like they need to be cautious too. It's unfortunate but it's not born out of nowhere.

Last edited by Omackeral; 04-11-2018 at 09:29.
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04-11-2018, 09:28   #33
RandomName2
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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
Well that's progress I suppose that you recognise they are an ethnicity.

Next is to get you to see and understand that it does not confer any 'extra' equality on them.
Different is not different.

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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
And before we go down the rabbithole again, an 'entitlement' is not an extra right.
Entitlements are not entitlements.

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Originally Posted by listermint View Post
Please take a moment out of your Sunday morning to watch this short snippit.

It was made by the American government in 1943

It's incredibly apt right now in America. In the UK and frankly to this entire threads permise. I'm in no doubt that there is ultras that will sneer at it but I don't really care. If the ones on the fence that are willfully vilifiying an entire group of people get it then it's done it's job.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMelv...91043696345088
You still here?

Not sure why you're posting WW2 propaganda (it is explicitly such). Don't worry your head listermint, I'll do the work for you!

So the American movie Don't be a sucker was warning against 5th columnists and socially divisive rabble rousers. Presumably it was also an opportunity for FDR to promote racial desegregation as well, though that didn't stop him from the mass interment of people with Japanese heritage the year before.

A fascist who was openly anti-Catholic Church? Seems a bit unlikely. Also the fascists in America were more likely to be acting on a pacifist note, in the same way that the fascists in Germany were more about undoing the Versailles Treaty as their primary take-home message.

Wait - but how does this relate to Ireland?

Dun dun dun


It's that when you get someone lauching tirades against certain people or organizations, like the Catholic Church, the Brits, the Prods, or the scummy bankers, you are giving into extremism. I think I've picked that up wrong.

Okay, I'll give it another go. There are 5th columnists afoot who will weaken the war effort. They should not be given a platform from which to sow division during these perilous times. No, no, I'm still missing it.

This is tougher than I thought, listermint, I'm not surprised you left it to me.

Oh wait, Casey is a fascist.

Got it.
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04-11-2018, 09:45   #34
FrancieBrady
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Originally Posted by Edward M View Post
They don't want inclusivity, that's the point lost on a good few, they tell you that themselves if you talked to them.
They want to be free to live their lives as they do and not have any interference from me and thee.
The problem is that their way of life impedes on ours and they aren't happy with our laws impeding on theirs.
They campaigned for this for years. They want their diversity recognised.
Not sure why you wish to make things up them wanting to live above our laws in some way.

Anecdotal stories about what a traveller on a market stall tells you aren't much use here. I could just invent another traveller saying something different.
The point is, and the effect of SEMS should be that their way of life shouldn't impede on ours like that of other ethnicities living here shouldn't.
That's if you want to live in a tolerant society. Which I certainly do.
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04-11-2018, 09:53   #35
tretorn
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Thats exactly it and in the Tipperary hirse and house case the travellers said they never asked for the houses.
Travellers dont finish education so any work they can find will be low paid and they have no hope of work unless they have a fixed address. The fixed address means bills and responsibilities and not ringing the council to tepair damage done and collect rubbish etc and traveller culture involves living on handouts from everyone else( including begging at doors) Its not the individual traveller that employers could be financially induced to employ, its the fact that employers wouldnt trust the individual not to give information to traveller criminal elements, once bitten twice shy.
Have you ever spoken or even been within ten km of a traveller listermint, if not take your nose out of your sociology lecture notes and go and visit a few halting sites.

I still cant believe elderly people are opening doirs to unknown people though I suppose if you dont open the door criminals will come in the window. I had the Romas around last christmas, they turned up singing carols tunelessly and I ran them. An older msn living alone let one in to use his bathroom and they ransacked his house. Another family discovered Romas were calling to their elderly mother regularly “for tea”, their mother had early inset dementia and the Roma were emptying her purse every week and had the full run of her house.
What can you say or do, the Gardai do their best and when I rang them about “ the choir” they responded immediately. I saw them stopping a Roma woman recently and they searched her double buggy, I heard them telling her she was a disgrace so the two children must have been sitting on stolen property.
My sons phone was stolen in a night club and the Gardai told him Roma gangs fly in and steal hundreds of phones in one night and then fly back out again. I suppose the Roma are a disadvantaged put upon group too, big resigned sigh.
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04-11-2018, 10:00   #36
Omackeral
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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
They campaigned for this for years. They want their diversity recognised.
You seem to have a lot of information on lock. What makes a Traveller, a Traveller?
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04-11-2018, 10:00   #37
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I will, you too. I'm off to a market to do a stall, I'll be beside a few travellers, we'll have a chat and d craic too, how many of them will you be chatting to today?
if you see my stihl chainsaw for sale let me know
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04-11-2018, 10:10   #38
FrancieBrady
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Originally Posted by Omackeral View Post
You seem to have a lot of information on lock. What makes a Traveller, a Traveller?
Plenty of info out there on that subject. Presented on this thread too.
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04-11-2018, 10:11   #39
Omackeral
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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
Plenty of info out there on that subject. Presented on this thread too.
There's over 10,000 posts on here. Could you just tell me? I'm asking you directly.
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04-11-2018, 10:15   #40
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There's over 10,000 posts on here. Could you just tell me? I'm asking you directly.
Oh no the thread is going to implode and kill all the hamsters!!!

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04-11-2018, 10:20   #41
FrancieBrady
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Originally Posted by Omackeral View Post
There's over 10,000 posts on here. Could you just tell me? I'm asking you directly.
Dear O, if you are the second highest contributor to that thread of 10,000 posts and you need to be told what it is travellers believe makes them travellers then I am sorry, I have no inclination to help you.

I have read the documentation on SEMS, I have listened to their representative bodies and I have listened to the arguments against it and I accept their status. Not particularly interested in arguing about that or rehashing it.

I would expect the same sort of interaction with and understanding of, the information off anyone who wants to be considered a serious contributor to this particular debate.
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04-11-2018, 10:22   #42
Captain Obvious
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Originally Posted by FrancieBrady View Post
Well that's progress I suppose that you recognise they are an ethnicity.

Next is to get you to see and understand that it does not confer any 'extra' equality on them.

And before we go down the rabbithole again, an 'entitlement' is not an extra right. Democratic and caring societies give extra entitlements and make special provision for, many many sections of society. And indeed, this community had entitlements and extra provision in law, long before SEMS, just like the disabled, the elderly, single mothers etc etc.

As previously pointed out, abuse of the above happens but has to be tolerated, to a degree, if we wish to live in a democratic, caring society.

I think there are a great many people that believe the entitlements provided are unnecessarily generous and that we are well past that degree of tolerating abuse.
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04-11-2018, 10:26   #43
FrancieBrady
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I think there are a great many people that believe the entitlements provided are unnecessarily generous and that we are well past that degree of tolerating abuse.
Have been saying it all through the thread. Abuses of welfare and entitlements occur across society and should be dealt with.
Should a presidential candidate be allowed to target one community on that subject in an erroneous and discriminatory way? No, he should be robustly challenged on that. And he was. Hence the whinging.
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04-11-2018, 10:27   #44
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They campaigned for this for years. They want their diversity recognised.
Not sure why you wish to make things up them wanting to live above our laws in some way.

.
Can you outline exactly what diversity travellers have that should be recognised?
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04-11-2018, 10:31   #45
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complaints@rte.ie is the place to go.

This is the legislation that they failed in

"RTÉ is obliged under Section 39 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to ensure that:

(a) all news broadcast is reported and presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of the broadcaster's own views."
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