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Dying with dignity

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  • 08-03-2011 9:42pm
    #1
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭


    Sorry to spoil the cheerful mood of the forum so far :D

    My granny (96) back in Germany a few years ago had us all fill in and sign a form regarding what is to be (and more importantly what is not to be) done in case she becomes terminally ill.

    This form is called a "Patientenverfuegung" and done correctly it now has legally binding status in Germany.
    In it you can specify (for example) that you do not want to be force fed or have your life otherwise artificially prolongued (by heart/lung machines etc) when your body is no longer able to sustain itself.
    Basically you can rule that you just want to be left to die when your time has come.
    This is all very regulated, there is a whole support network for patients and their family when it comes to filling in this form and it is also recognised by the medical profession.

    I think it is a great form of making your wishes known in regards of how you want to die without running the risk of being overruled by some over-eager doctor or grieving relative unwilling to let go when you are no longer in a state to object.

    Is there something similar in Ireland ?


    EDIT
    Just to add and clarify ...this legally binding form does not allow or make any provions for anything remotely resembling euthanasia. That is still very much illegal.


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    #2
    foxinsox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭foxinsox


    Good question, although I don't have the answer. I will be interested to see the replies.

    My mother spends a lot of time telling us all the things we are not to do to her if she gets sick, pretty similar to what you have mentioned above. But I don't know how we would make sure of it if there is nothing in writing.

    I'm sure someone in here will know the answer.. :)


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    #3
    Cicero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,144 ✭✭✭✭Cicero


    peasant wrote: »

    Is there something similar in Ireland ?

    The short answer is, I honestly don't know...but I've experienced the death of a number of close family and beyond (in Ireland) and every time the loved one is, let's say, showing signs of leaving soon, the family are called into a room and asked "What are your wishes" in terms of keeping the dying family member alive...in every case, the answer has been "no pain"...

    In reality, what this means, is that doses of morphine are administered and regulated based on the patient showing any signs of pain...eventually, unconsciousness followed as the natural part of the dying process, and they eventually departed this life.

    I don't think there is a doctor in Ireland that would want to see a patient in distress - however, I don't know what the law is in relation to someone, say in a coma, who is stable, possibly even physically "fit", who is showing no signs of dying, but the chances of coming out of the coma are slim...


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    #4
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Cicero wrote: »
    I don't think there is a doctor in Ireland that would want to see a patient in distress

    Well ...that's the crux of the issue really.
    Is someone in distress when they are dying? I would wager that the answer to that is yes.
    Are they in distress when they are being kept artificially alive? Most certainly a yes there too.

    Which distress does the doctor want to try and avoid?
    Which distress would the patient rather suffer?

    With the capabilities of modern medicine you will find that there are a lot of distresses to potentially choose from.


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    #5
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I'm utterly sure that if such laws existed we would know as the usual God botherers would be screaming blue murder from the rooftops.


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    #6
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,047 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Well I sincerely hope that if I get to the stage of not knowing what is going on - alzheimers for example - that someone will be kind enough to give me a push.

    On the other hand my mother is 90, has survived two strokes, heart failure, a knee replacement, has aphasia and goodness knows what else, and still has good quality of life, she will go when she is good and ready.


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    #7
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    We discussed this over in the Atheist Forum a while back.
    Apparently over here, even if you put in down in your will, once you die, your family can basically over ride any of your requests, because your body is dead and it's now in the charge of your family.
    Same with an organ donor card.
    A ridiculous situation to be in.

    Your Gran's a fantastic age peasant. Mine is now 93 and still flying!


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    #8
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Cicero wrote: »
    I don't think there is a doctor in Ireland that would want to see a patient in distress
    "Want" being an operative word there.

    Unfortunately we have a rather bizarre legal system here in Ireland which leaves doctors horrifically exposed, no doubt due to the excessive religious value put on life. Put simply, doctors in Ireland are terrified of litigation and will often recommend (particularly in the case of elderly people) courses of treatment which are likely to be long and arduous and have only an outside chance of improving the person's quality of life.
    This is because if they don't, that person's family will come out screaming and throwing solicitors at the doctor claiming negligence and all sorts of stuff.

    My MIL's Aunt (who is touching 90 I think) appears to have some form of leukaemia. Her symptoms generally are a low iron count, leading to tiredness and weakness. Otherwise she's OK though, she still lives in her own home, and her grandson arrives once or twice a day to have a meal with her, tidy up and bring her shopping and the like. She's pretty much full in her faculties, though slow as would be expected.

    When she got the diagnosis, the doctors started talking about all sorts of drug treatments and in particular recommended a colonoscopy. A botched colonoscopy killed her brother. She decided that she would be happy taking iron tablets and other simple things, but refused any other treatment. She's old enough, why bother destroying her quality of life in the vain hope of extending it by a few months? So the doctors kept her in for a week and refused to let her leave the hospital. Only after she had two psychologists in to assess her would they let her leave the hospital and only after signing a ream of documents in relation to liability.


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    #9
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    seamus wrote: »
    So the doctors kept her in for a week and refused to let her leave the hospital. Only after she had two psychologists in to assess her would they let her leave the hospital and only after signing a ream of documents in relation to liability.

    I find that shocking. If I can stand up and walk out the door then who has the right to stop me?
    At what age exactly, do people think they have the right to take someones autonomy away?


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    #10
    kdogkeith
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭kdogkeith


    That is a very interesting question but im afraid i dont know the answer myself.
    I dont like the idea of signing a contract like that, what if the person changes teir mind but their in a coma ect so they cant tell anybody.
    Im not sure how active the mind is during a coma but thats just an example.

    I hope you find your answer


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    #11
    kdogkeith
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭kdogkeith


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    I find that shocking. If I can stand up and walk out the door then who has the right to stop me?

    I couldnt agree more


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    #12
    chucken1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭chucken1


    Does'nt having a living will sort out all your wishes?

    http://livingwillstrust.com/aboutus.aspx


    http://livingwillstrust.com/Documents/Living_Will.pdf


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    #13
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    chucken1 wrote: »
    Does'nt having a living will sort out all your wishes?
    Afaik (could be wrong) that once you've been declared non-copus mentis whether that be due to senility or unconsciousness, your next-of-kin has the right to decide what to do with you and may ignore anything set out in a living will.
    That said if you knew your family were humans so despicable as to ignore your wishes in this regard, you wouldn't bother wasting your time making a living will.

    The only will which can't be disregarded is the one which says what happens to your estate after you die. Though that too can be challenged in certain cases.

    There is much more talk now, both in medical and media circles about "end-of-life care", which indicates to me that we're starting to shed our taboos around death. The Irish in particular have a really weird way of dealing with death where everyone acknowledges that it has happened, but nobody talks about it.


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    #14
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Living wills aren't legal here.


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    #15
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    it's not so long ago that the summoning of a priest was right up there with an ambulance in a serious accident, sometimes in the wrong order!

    i was going down the road of donating the beautiful thing that is my body to the college of surgeons but didn't when i found out they needed my mother to give her permission.

    why?

    my mother is religeous and would never.

    this was years ago but i presume the same applies.
    it is rediculous and the time has definitely come to bring about some changes now that the religeous have lost a lot of their influence thankfully.


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    #16
    chucken1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭chucken1


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Living wills aren't legal here.

    I know! But I suppose my point here is that maybe a lot of people may not have heard of them. Its so important to discuss your wishes with your family. If they know you at all,they will comply when the time comes.
    slavetothegrind wrote: »
    it's not so long ago that the summoning of a priest was right up there with an ambulance in a serious accident, sometimes in the wrong order!

    i was going down the road of donating the beautiful thing that is my body to the college of surgeons but didn't when i found out they needed my mother to give her permission.

    why?

    my mother is religeous and would never.

    this was years ago but i presume the same applies.
    it is rediculous and the time has definitely come to bring about some changes now that the religeous have lost a lot of their influence thankfully.

    I think the way it works is..you let your family know but when the time comes they don't have to give their permission. MAD!!

    I tell you I'll come back and haunt my crew if they don't do what I want. :D


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    #17
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    am going to Med science too. Husband has my forms. I have MS and would hope to die when I can no longer walk or be continent.


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    #18
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    I sincerely hope that is far in the future.


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