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The Sub 4 Support Thread

24567…37

Comments

  • #32
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Derco wrote: »
    Just when I had accepted that a sub 4 marathon was beyond me... I stumbled upon this thread. I will be following this thread with interest over the summer. I'm at something of a crossroads with regard to marathon running. My PB of 4:16 was in 2016. Since then I had a disaster DCM last year and shuffled around Manchester last month after an indifferent training block. I seem to be settling into a slower pace each year so my dilema is do I still try to do the marathon quicker or accept my slow pace and try an Ultra. At the moment I'm inclining towards the latter.

    The very best of luck to everyone aiming for the magic 3:59 this year. If I'm not posting on this thread I'll certainly be lurking.

    I’d be interested to know how you are training Derco. Are you following a plan for the marathons? Have you an ultra in mind?


  • #33
    Derco
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Derco


    Kellygirl wrote: »
    I’d be interested to know how you are training Derco. Are you following a plan for the marathons? Have you an ultra in mind?

    Not doing any training at the moment. I just got Manchester out of my legs and I have work, exams and holidays taking up my time for the next few weeks. I'm about a stone over my fighting weight so I want to knock that off before starting training for Dublin.

    I don't rigidly follow training plans either. I get the mileage done but don't do speed sessions or interval training. I have flat routes and hilly routes - that's it really. Last year I maxed out at 60 miles three weeks before the race and in hindsight that's probably the reason why it all went Pete Tong on the day.

    As regards an Ultra.... well Connemara is on my running bucket list and every time I go on their website a little voice in my head says "Go on do the Ultra - I dare ya!" I'm too slow to do Donadea so I think that's my only option.


  • #34
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Derco wrote: »
    Not doing any training at the moment. I just got Manchester out of my legs and I have work, exams and holidays taking up my time for the next few weeks. I'm about a stone over my fighting weight so I want to knock that off before starting training for Dublin.

    I don't rigidly follow training plans either. I get the mileage done but don't do speed sessions or interval training. I have flat routes and hilly routes - that's it really. Last year I maxed out at 60 miles three weeks before the race and in hindsight that's probably the reason why it all went Pete Tong on the day.

    As regards an Ultra.... well Connemara is on my running bucket list and every time I go on their website a little voice in my head says "Go on do the Ultra - I dare ya!" I'm too slow to do Donadea so I think that's my only option.

    That sounds like high mileage alright. I’m not you sure you have to do interval training to get to sub 4 but what the other most recent comments in the thread are saying about consistency is relevant I think. The pace you do your training runs at could be very relevant too. If you are running them all too hard or too fast you wouldn’t be doing yourself any favours.

    Sounds like you need to do the ultra if that little voice is telling you! :D


  • #35
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Which voice is shouting loudest? Sub 4 or ultra? Both will need lots of effort. Why knock off the weight before starting training? Could the training not be part of the process.


  • #36
    Derco
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Derco


    Kellygirl wrote: »
    That sounds like high mileage alright. I’m not you sure you have to do interval training to get to sub 4 but what the other most recent comments in the thread are saying about consistency is relevant I think. The pace you do your training runs at could be very relevant too. If you are running them all too hard or too fast you wouldn’t be doing yourself any favours.

    Sounds like you need to do the ultra if that little voice is telling you! :D

    That little voice has got me into trouble a few times over the years :D

    My pace is generally conservative, especially on my long runs but having said that, I finished the 60 mile week last year by doing the 3/4 in Longwood - which I ran like a madman. So if anyone here is thinking of doing the 3/4 as a tune-up, by all means do it - it's a good, well organised race. But use it as a training run only.


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  • #37
    Derco
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Derco


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Which voice is shouting loudest? Sub 4 or ultra?

    Right now Ultra but I'm still doing Dublin.
    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Both will need lots of effort.

    I have been guilty of deluding myself many times but this not one of them.
    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Why knock off the weight before starting training? Could the training not be part of the process.

    I plan to focus mainly on the gym in June and get a good month of S&C before doing any serious mileage


  • #38
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Derco wrote: »
    My pace is generally conservative, especially on my long runs but having said that, I finished the 60 mile week last year by doing the 3/4 in Longwood - which I ran like a madman. So if anyone here is thinking of doing the 3/4 as a tune-up, by all means do it - it's a good, well organised race. But use it as a training run only.

    Raced the ¾ at the end of a 60 mile week? There’s your issue right there - as you know now. Were you getting any advice at all from anyone? Mileage alone won’t get you to sub-4. But that kind of mileage, applied correctly, should bring a far better reward. Why wouldn’t you structure it better - doing yourself justice for the amount of time you are putting in? A 60 mile week is a big time investment.

    Sounds like you know already where you’ve been going wrong. Moving to ultras won’t help - you’ll just be compounding the same problem over longer distances.

    A bit of discipline and sensible, appropriate training and sub-4 should be in the bag.


  • #39
    ewc78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    Murph_D wrote: »
    8k in 39 mins is a very fast run for a 4-hour marathoner.

    Can I ask what the point of this session was? Did you warm up before, and cool down after this run, which is probably not far off your 10k pace? Or was some of it faster than the 4:53 average?

    Don’t get me wrong - it’s a very good session if the point of it was a long tempo run, but if you’re not doing these runs in a structured way (sppedwork, tempo, easy, long etc) you could well just end up flogging yourself. But you probably know this after two marathons.

    Good luck with the project. 4 hours is a very achievable target for someone of your experience, and your 5k time indicates you have plenty of leeway.
    I was supposed to do a Tempo run outside which I normally run at about 5:10 pace but between one thing and another I couldn't leave the house so I hopped on the treadmill. I find it easier running on the mill at a faster speed than the same speed outside so that's why I ended up running a bit faster. I measure all my treadmill runs with a stryd footpod so the paces are accurate enough.
    Thanks for the input though. I know I need a bit more structure to training.


  • #40
    Pomplamousse
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22 and swore I'd never attempt a marathon again. I think I got my fuelling all wrong and possibly ran my long runs too slow among other things.

    Half marathon PB is 1:48:23, from April 2017. Was aiming for a 1:44:59 half in April 2018 but 9 weeks into training I went splat on the ground, needed stitches in my knee and was out of action for 4 weeks. Gutted as I felt like I was making a lot of progress fitness wise, for the first time in ages.

    Slowly getting back into it now. I think I need an agressive marathon plan if I want sub-4, with plenty of PMP runs. I'm about 90% decided that I'm gonna go for the meno plan, although I'll stick to the lower end of the suggested weekly mileage:o

    Looking forward to seeing how everyone gets on in this thread.


  • #41
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Pomplamousse wrote: »
    Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22 and swore I'd never attempt a marathon again. I think I got my fuelling all wrong and possibly ran my long runs too slow among other things.

    Half marathon PB is 1:48:23, from April 2017. Was aiming for a 1:44:59 half in April 2018 but 9 weeks into training I went splat on the ground, needed stitches in my knee and was out of action for 4 weeks. Gutted as I felt like I was making a lot of progress fitness wise, for the first time in ages.

    Slowly getting back into it now. I think I need an agressive marathon plan if I want sub-4, with plenty of PMP runs. I'm about 90% decided that I'm gonna go for the meno plan, although I'll stick to the lower end of the suggested weekly mileage:o

    Looking forward to seeing how everyone gets on in this thread.

    Hi there. This one has me intrigued. What pace were you doing your long runs at? What was your last plan lacking in aggression?

    It seems you are making steady progress towards a sub 4 already.


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  • #42
    Pomplamousse
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Hi there. This one has me intrigued. What pace were you doing your long runs at? What was your last plan lacking in aggression?

    It seems you are making steady progress towards a sub 4 already.

    For DCM 2016, my long runs were generally somewhere between 10:30-11 mins per mile.
    I followed the boards novices plan and while there was one PMP run a week, I think I'd benefit from some of the Wednesday session runs that are in the meno plan as well as the PMP miles incorporated into some of the LSRs.
    I'm no expert though so these mightn't have been an issue in my sub-4 failure at all:o
    When I was training for my half marathon this year before I fell, my LSRs were between 9:30-10mins/mile and I really felt like my fitness was improving a lot.


  • #43
    ewc78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    I've heard loads of times you can't run your long slow runs too slow... I dunno about that though.
    I really struggle with any pace over say 10/min miles. My legs get heavy and I get tired quicker. I find it really difficult to go as slow as some of the calculators suggest I should be running for long runs. Is this something that I should work on or like Pomplamousse above should I just run at what I feel is a more comfortable slow pace which would be roughly 9.40/mile pace.


  • #44
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Ok well this time last year I only started to run regularly. One of the most important pieces of advice I took on board was to do the easy runs easy. As with both of you the slow paces felt artificially slow. This article convinced me to slow down. https://runnersconnect.net/wrong-long-run-pace/

    So I kept my long runs slow and ended up doing DCM under my 4 hour target. I have continued to run and my times have steadily improved over all distances. My long and easy runs are still done at 3 mins above my 5k pace, never faster than 9 minute miles. By all means introduce some type of session but slow running is the key component to increasing endurance.


  • #45
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    ewc78 wrote: »
    I've heard loads of times you can't run your long slow runs too slow... I dunno about that though.
    I really struggle with any pace over say 10/min miles. My legs get heavy and I get tired quicker. I find it really difficult to go as slow as some of the calculators suggest I should be running for long runs. Is this something that I should work on or like Pomplamousse above should I just run at what I feel is a more comfortable slow pace which would be roughly 9.40/mile pace.

    Your legs might get heavy and tired but they you will get stronger in time. Long slow runs are what you need to translate faster 5k times into comparable longer race times.


  • #46
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,196 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    LSR paces don't concern me, really. Execution is possibly where I run into issues as I usually still have too much energy after finishing from not going for it. Miles 14, 21-23 are what I didn't enjoy last year, if Garmin's anything to go by.

    I'm a little reluctant to post in this thread as I'll probably just line up with the 4:10s again, though we've a few months to go. Then there's the assigned wave thing too.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #47
    Lazare
    Registered Users Posts: 4,412 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Pomplamousse wrote: »
    Great thread idea. I'm planning on going for sub-4 in Dublin this year. Attempted sub-4 for the only marathon I've run, DCM 2016, and I faded badly around mile 16ish. Crawled home in 4:19:22.

    May I ask what your pacing strat was for that one?

    And what was your half time in 2016?


  • #48
    Pomplamousse
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Lazare wrote: »
    May I ask what your pacing strat was for that one?

    And what was your half time in 2016?

    Pacing strategy was even splits and think that was going alright until I faded. Unfortunately my Garmin went haywire before I had a chance to upload the run so I don't have any of the data:( I also came down with a cold and cough the week of the marathon and while I was feeling fine by marathon day, I've no idea if that did or didn't play a role in me fading.

    The only half I had ever raced before DCM 2016 was in August 2015 and I did that in 1:56:34. I ran the Dublin Half marathon in September 2016, but decided to do it at marathon pace rather than race it, as I was worried about injury risk. Speeded up a bit towards the end as I still had loads of energy and did it in 1:57:15. I know I had a much better time in me had I been racing, but no idea what exactly time it would've been. Sorry that's not very helpful to you at all!


  • #49
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    For what it’s worth, I did 4:02 in first marathon (2012) using one of the Higdon Novice plans. Had an 86-min 10 mile in the run-up but sub-4 was always going to be a stretch with the low mileage I was on - only around 25 miles a week. The plan had no speed or tempo, just the odd few miles at MP. A classic ‘get you around’ plan.

    The following year, the meno plan was introduced as he was mentoring the 2012 graduates. I ran 3:47 in 2013 off that - a good mixture of speed, tempo, long, easy. And lots of advice about how to run them. I found it excellent, doing it at about 35-40 miles per week. Used it twice more, in fact, getting down to 3:29 by Cork 2015.

    The key was not the day-to-day details of the plan itself, but rather its overall scope and structure: increased mileage, challenging sessions, long runs with added challenges (in and around MP, variable pace, etc). This all helps with learning to push yourself a little harder, run with discomfort, confidence - all those things you need to break through arbitrary barriers such as sub-4, sub-3:45, sub-3:30 etc. Some of it is mental, but the majority is just doing the work diligently, running at the right paces so your body makes the adaptations you need.

    My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone.

    Best of luck to anyone attempting. I’ve no doubt that almost anyone can do it with a bit of discipline, and of course you have to make the start line - sometimes the hardest challenge of all, especially earlier in your running career.


  • #50
    Pomplamousse
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Murph_D wrote: »
    My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone.

    That'll be really useful to have a read of, thanks!


  • #51
    Lazare
    Registered Users Posts: 4,412 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Pomplamousse wrote: »
    Pacing strategy was even splits and think that was going alright until I faded. Unfortunately my Garmin went haywire before I had a chance to upload the run so I don't have any of the data:( I also came down with a cold and cough the week of the marathon and while I was feeling fine by marathon day, I've no idea if that did or didn't play a role in me fading.

    The only half I had ever raced before DCM 2016 was in August 2015 and I did that in 1:56:34. I ran the Dublin Half marathon in September 2016, but decided to do it at marathon pace rather than race it, as I was worried about injury risk. Speeded up a bit towards the end as I still had loads of energy and did it in 1:57:15. I know I had a much better time in me had I been racing, but no idea what exactly time it would've been. Sorry that's not very helpful to you at all!

    I got some stellar course specific advice last year from a Dublin veteran, a 2:32 marathoner.

    Basically, even splits are a bad idea.

    The course is set up for a negative split, the Chapelizod hill for instance if ran too hard will end your race and you won't know about it for two hours.
    He slows to almost walking up it.

    I took all that on board and got a custom pace band.

    I ran at about 4:12 pace until about mile 6 and slowly picked it up. 4 hour pacers were 2km ahead, I didn't catch them until Milltown.

    I know for sure if I ran with them from the gun I would have ran about a 4:10 at best.

    My half time is within 2 minutes of yours and I ran a 3:58 so with good pacing strat you will nail it.


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  • #52
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,196 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Our 2016 colleague has used the meno plan twice, afaik. I'll be going over his log too. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057692232

    The note above about running with discomfort and confidence gives me some hope. Discipline's not usually an issue for me, but I'm a little concerned about misreading the notes and fupping up the meno. I'm starting the grads base plan this coming week, fourth time using it. I've a 10k coming up soon on the 20th of this month. Bit hazy on whether that's wise, anyway it's paid for. Due to finish the base around mid-June, I'll be on holidays (cycling) that weekend. Might get 1-2 runs in whilst away, but depends on the schedule and amount of free time. Looking at past efforts with the base, all weeks have been over 30 miles, mind you, with warm ups included my mileage looks a bit padded. After the holidays I'll probably redo a week or two of the base plan to keep myself ticking over. If I've read the meno plan right I'll be starting it around July 2nd or so. That's the rest of my year on the running front, for now.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #53
    ewc78
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 480 ✭✭ewc78


    Has anyone a link to this meno plan?


  • #54
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,196 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Meno plan

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #55
    ISOP
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭ISOP


    4:13 in Limerick yesterday, which in the end I was happy with. Was absolutely cruising to mile 21 with the 4 hour pacer then the heat finally got me, my heart was pounding aswell which worried me a bit so pulled it back a bit, onwards and upwards


  • #56
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    ISOP wrote: »
    4:13 in Limerick yesterday, which in the end I was happy with. Was absolutely cruising to mile 21 with the 4 hour pacer then the heat finally got me, my heart was pounding aswell which worried me a bit so pulled it back a bit, onwards and upwards

    Well done. The heat killed a lot of people yesterday. I saw 3 guys down on the NCR and Ennis Road.


  • #57
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,196 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I spent some time looking through the first 6 weeks of meno plan, writing down a few notes. Jot down your MP, half MP, 3k, 5k, 10k paces and plan ahead for that block anyway. I feel more comfortable tackling it overall now. :)

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #58
    Burkie_Fi
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Burkie_Fi


    Joining this thread a bit late as a sub-4 is on my radar but I'm worried about my training for Cork. Did my first marathon in Dublin 2017 and ran a 4.04 quite comfortably. Started with the 4.20 pacer, bit boxed in for the first half but that pace saved me for the final 6 miles. Training is no where near the same level because I haven't given myself a huge amount of time. I'm comfortably doing 19 milers in 3 hours but I went to 22 miles in training for DCM so I'm worried I'm running out of time. First time training alone as well so my head is being challenged a lot.
    Only following my own make-uppy plan really! I should have logged in here sooner! How is everyone else doing?


  • #59
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Burkie_Fi wrote: »
    Joining this thread a bit late as a sub-4 is on my radar but I'm worried about my training for Cork. Did my first marathon in Dublin 2017 and ran a 4.04 quite comfortably. Started with the 4.20 pacer, bit boxed in for the first half but that pace saved me for the final 6 miles. Training is no where near the same level because I haven't given myself a huge amount of time. I'm comfortably doing 19 milers in 3 hours but I went to 22 miles in training for DCM so I'm worried I'm running out of time. First time training alone as well so my head is being challenged a lot.
    Only following my own make-uppy plan really! I should have logged in here sooner! How is everyone else doing?

    19 mile long run is fine. 22 mile training runs at appropriate LR pace for someone targeting a 4 hour marathon just take too long - around 3:40 if you’re pacing it right. No need to go beyond 2:45-3:00. Too long on feet, too great a risk of exhaustion or injury.


  • #60
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Burkie_Fi wrote: »
    Joining this thread a bit late as a sub-4 is on my radar but I'm worried about my training for Cork. Did my first marathon in Dublin 2017 and ran a 4.04 quite comfortably. Started with the 4.20 pacer, bit boxed in for the first half but that pace saved me for the final 6 miles. Training is no where near the same level because I haven't given myself a huge amount of time. I'm comfortably doing 19 milers in 3 hours but I went to 22 miles in training for DCM so I'm worried I'm running out of time. First time training alone as well so my head is being challenged a lot.
    Only following my own make-uppy plan really! I should have logged in here sooner! How is everyone else doing?

    You sound like you are doing fine. A 19 mile LSR is grand especially if you are doing it comfortably and there’s a thought process that there is no point running for longer than 3 hours in training anyway. I would say try not to lose the head in the next couple of weeks and do nice and consistent training and then taper.


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  • #61
    Mr. Guappa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,701 ✭✭✭Mr. Guappa


    Delighted to find this thread. I've signed up for DCM this year, my first marathon. 4:00 is the arbitrary target at this stage, but I'll adjust if it's looking unrealistic closer to the date.

    As a guide, I ran the Dungarvan 10 mile in 1:23 back in Feb, and same time last week on a very hilly Cobh 10 mile course. Running a HM in July, and from there all eyes on Dublin.


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