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Minnesota officer shoots dead another innocent black victim

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    #452
    Gradius
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Gradius


    The United States is statistically the most unequal society on earth.

    It's not an accident, it is it's very foundation, it's the design.

    A nation composed of groups of entirely different groups of people in competition. Starting with slavery and transforming into the importation of an entire underclass as "immigrants" and "illegals".

    Wealth disparity is by design. Therefore class is by design, therefore violence is the inevitable conclusion between clashing people that are forced to live alongside each other.

    It's also the reason that they have a joke of a social welfare system. Why should one group pay for another competing group? So, they dont.

    Trying to pick out one particular, minute element of the system like law enforcement is going to get you nowhere. There's no "fixing" something that works exactly as intended. Can't fix what isn't broken.

    The sudden influx of every arsehole under the sun into Ireland is HIGHLY suspect for these reasons. If you were cynical (!), you'd make the educated guess that it is the attempted creation of a mini USA with a new imported underclass, the inevitable fracturing of community, and the resultant lean into a more violent, less secure society.

    In fact, if you were to graph the increasing inequality in Ireland against the sudden arrival of many immigrants, you'll probably find a near-exact inflection point.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6GHnxEJjg


  • Options
    #453
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    TanookiMario wrote: »
    I think you could make an argument that there is a fear among the black community that if they are being arrested then their life is at risk anyway. This could cause someone to panic and try to flee.

    There is no question that there is fear among the black community with regards to police and it justified.

    But you couldn't argue that he was being placed in a fearful position by police at the moment he struggled to get back into the car. The police looked reasonably calm while attempting to hand cuff him.


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    #454
    nolivesmatter
    Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    What? He drove off after being shot. Are we talking about the same video?

    He drove off after he was shot. But he'd already resisted arrest and got back into the car (in what seemed like an obvious attempt to drive off) before that happened.


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    #455
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    What? He drove off after being shot. Are we talking about the same video?

    He resisted arrest and got back into his car, that is when the police scrambled to get him and they shouted to use the taser. As he is beginning to drive the weapon is discharged and the officer in question realised she used her gun and not her taser.

    Glazers Out!



  • Options
    #456
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Do you not understand what the phrase 'What I am suggesting' means?

    Is it this view you want evidence for?
    How's this?



    You might find this particularly interesting.

    Why raise those issues here if they're not relevant to this case?

    We have plenty of threads about statistics relating to these issues and you have posted in them plenty of times in the past.

    You just decided, apropos of nothing to raise those topics here even though you in no way feel race was an issue in this case even though you have posted saying that you do feel race was an issue in this case?

    Help me out here, you either believe one thing or the other, you've contradicted yourself already. Can you clarify what your opinion is on this case?

    Glazers Out!



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  • Options
    #457
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Gradius wrote: »
    The United States is statistically the most unequal society on earth.

    It's not an accident, it is it's very foundation, it's the design.

    A nation composed of groups of entirely different groups of people in competition. Starting with slavery and transforming into the importation of an entire underclass as "immigrants" and "illegals".

    Wealth disparity is by design. Therefore class is by design, therefore violence is the inevitable conclusion between clashing people that are forced to live alongside each other.

    It's also the reason that they have a joke of a social welfare system. Why should one group pay for another competing group? So, they dont.

    Trying to pick out one particular, minute element of the system like law enforcement is going to get you nowhere. There's no "fixing" something that works exactly as intended. Can't fix what isn't broken.

    The sudden influx of every arsehole under the sun into Ireland is HIGHLY suspect for these reasons. If you were cynical (!), you'd make the educated guess that it is the attempted creation of a mini USA with a new imported underclass, the inevitable fracturing of community, and the resultant lean into a more violent, less secure society.

    In fact, if you were to graph the increasing inequality in Ireland against the sudden arrival of many immigrants, you'll probably find a near-exact inflection point.

    Maybe, if you treat like the Premier League do and ignore everything that happened before 1992.

    I agree with your view about the disparity in America but not that such a thing is being attempted in some form of a coordinated fashion in Ireland as you suggest.


  • Options
    #458
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    nullzero wrote: »
    He resisted arrest and got back into his car, that is when the police scrambled to get him and they shouted to use the taser. As he is beginning to drive the weapon is discharged and the officer in question realised she used her gun and not her taser.

    He had a bit of attitude, yeah, but somebody like that probably does not have the training to deal with psycho cops on a daily basis.


  • Options
    #459
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    nullzero wrote: »
    Why raise those issues here if they're not relevant to this case?

    We have plenty of threads about statistics relating to these issues and you have posted in them plenty of times in the past.

    You just decided, apropos of nothing to raise those topics here even though you in no way feel race was an issue in this case even though you have posted saying that you do feel race was an issue in this case?

    Help me out here, you either believe one thing or the other, you've contradicted yourself already. Can you clarify what your opinion is on this case?

    Haven't contradicted myself at all. Don't need to clarify my opinion either.

    The fact that there are plenty of threads on these topics is evidence as to why the conversation has moved in that direction here. This, as I already said, is another in a series of rolling events.


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    #460
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    He had a bit of attitude, yeah, but somebody like that probably does not have the training to deal with psycho cops on a daily basis.

    But of an attitude?

    He resisted being put in handcuffs and jumped into his car to flee the police.

    His attitude is not the issue, his actions are.

    What are you referring to when you talk about someone like him not having the "training" to deal with "Psycho cops"?

    How were these cops psychos exactly?

    The officer who shot him displayed immediate remorse for discharging the wrong weapon, not exactly the hallmarks of a psychopath.

    Glazers Out!



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    #461
    nolivesmatter
    Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    Tell me how wrote: »
    A - I haven't done that.
    B - Does that justify him being killed as he was?
    C - Are the police correct to act as judge/jury/executioner?
    D - What action do you think needs to come out of this incident?

    Something to try prevent an officer from confusing a taser and a gun. Whether that's through training, taser design or whatever. That's what went wrong here. If we go any step further back than that in this situation then we're looking at Wrights behavior.


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    #462
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Maybe he tried to flee because the officer was shouting "taser, taser, taser" while pointing a loaded Glock 19 pistol at his head. Maybe he had grave concerns about that particular situation. I certainly would.

    Very Buddhist of you, fits quantum mechanics as well, all time as one time.

    In the video, it progresses differently but that's not relevant to your needs.


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    #463
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Haven't contradicted myself at all. Don't need to clarify my opinion either.

    The fact that there are plenty of threads on these topics is evidence as to why the conversation has moved in that direction here. This, as I already said, is another in a series of rolling events.

    So you're ignoring that you said he would have been less likely to be stopped if he were white?

    You also acknowledged the difficulty in assigning the blame in this case to race, a contradiction of the previous comment.

    You are evading simple, direct questions and contradicting yourself whilst claiming not to.

    I'll leave it there if you will, I can continue if you wish. The ball is in your court.

    My contention is that race was irrelevant in this case and that attempts to say it was are irresponsible and inflammatory.

    Glazers Out!



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    #464
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    What? He drove off after being shot. Are we talking about the same video?

    Yes, he crashed into another car, big loss for them, he had no insurance so their loss.


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    #465
    Gradius
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Gradius


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Maybe, if you treat like the Premier League do and ignore everything that happened before 1992.

    I agree with your view about the disparity in America but not that such a thing is being attempted in some form of a coordinated fashion in Ireland as you suggest.

    What you have to remember is that wealth inequality has two sides. Yes, a lot of people become much poorer, but there's a killing to be made for some.

    So it may not be entirely "coordinated", but you only need one element to be pushed in order to create the other side. People in pursuit of vast sums of money will inevitably create vast poverty. Their intention may not be the poverty others, but they'll create it nonetheless.

    Just to pick one example: How does filling social housing lists in Ireland with non-irish people make sense for Irish people as a whole, against the backdrop of a never-ending housing crisis?

    The answer is that it doesn't make sense. But you can be damn sure that the loss of many is the gain of a few.

    And for that reason I say it is coordinated. If you want a sneak peak into Ireland in the future, just look at the USA now. Increased violence, less social cohesion, and the weaponisation of -ism's.


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    #466
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    People talking about the safety of the black community.

    The black community in Minneapolis is safer now because he did a dumb thing and a police officer did a careless thing.

    It's tough on his family, his girlfriend in the car, the officers involved.

    He wasn't a neighbourly man.

    Being a reprehensible person doesn't mean he deserves to end up on a slab, it's just one of those things that can happen when you do very stupid and aggressive things out.


  • Options
    #467
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    nullzero wrote: »
    So you're ignoring that you said he would have been less likely to be stopped if he were white?

    You also acknowledged the difficulty in assigning the blame in this case to race, a contradiction of the previous comment.

    You are evading simple, direct questions and contradicting yourself whilst claiming not to.

    I'll leave it there if you will, I can continue if you wish. The ball is in your court.

    My contention is that race was irrelevant in this case and that attempts to say it was are irresponsible and inflammatory.

    Post 453.
    It's telling that you think that comments on an Irish discussion board are irresponsible and inflammatory but are ok with the provocative nature of policing in many locations in the US.

    I would strongly suggest you don't continue given you said it is my choice.


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    #468
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    That is a childish argument that ignores a multitude of other factors.

    It’s like you don’t read. I said it’s *A* factor.

    Jesus.


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    #469
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Post 453.
    It's telling that you think that comments on an Irish discussion board are irresponsible and inflammatory but are ok with the provocative nature of policing in many locations in the US.

    I would strongly suggest you don't continue given you said it is my choice.

    I think turning a tragedy into a race issue is inflammatory. We have these issues raising their head in this country in recent times so yes turning this issue into something it isn't is normalising false narratives and anyone attempting to do that should be called out.


    You would strongly suggest I don't continue because you're not getting your way when I do.
    Too bad. If the police had been shouting racial slurs at this guy I'd happily accept what you're saying, but you and I both know that didn't happen and you've attempted to distance yourself from the idea that this issue is based in the racism of the police officers involved whilst also stating racism was a factor (making an issue of the the phrase "what I am suggesting" isn't getting you out of this one I'm afraid).

    You went on to quote an article about the likelihood of black drivers being stopped by police which again suggests a racial motivation in this case, but you're only "suggesting" it in relation to this case, not really saying it is an actual factor so that's your get out jail free card. What a load of waffle.

    Glazers Out!



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    #470
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    TanookiMario wrote: »
    That's not how things work and you know it.

    First of all, if you rolled a dice 30 times you wouldn't come up with 5 of each number.

    Second, what ratio of people killed by police are male, female and non binary etc? Is there an age breakdown? What about regional stats or stats based on population density?

    Lets just focus on gender for now? Is there a 50-50 male to female split in the demographics of people killed by police. If not, why not?

    Again, if the male to female ratio is not 50-50 then why do we only focus on race and disregard gender entirely. Who only focus on one single factor. Because it doesn't suit the agenda?

    You must know exactly what you are doing here?

    Did you know that MOST victims of police are aged between 20 and 35 years old?

    Why aren't 10 year olds, 25 year old and 80 year old all being killed at the same rate? I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. Ageist cops?
    Are you suggesting that most people aged between 20 and 35 years old are black?

    If not then you’re being nonsensical


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    #471
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Student_111 wrote: »
    Hilariously flawed reasoning. I'm speechless.

    It really shouldn't need addressing but here we are: "If sexism wasn't a factor in police killings, 1 in 2 police victims would be female as they are 1 in 2 of the population." Mind boggling.

    Except sex is a factor. Police are softer to female suspects.

    Y’all are great at this logic thing.


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    #472
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    TanookiMario wrote: »
    For me it wouldn't be so much about exposing the flawed logic as I think we can all see it and I think even at times the people making these points know what they are up to.

    What I'd like from posters such as Overheal would be an explanation for why some disproportionate killing is OK but not others.

    I don't dispute the statistics but I do question the talking points that arise out of these statistics.

    People focus in on the disproportionate killing on non-whites but not the disproportionate killing of men. Young men to be even more specific.

    If its crime related though then why shouldn't the factors we consider be related to crime and not race at all?

    Are people with, say, outstanding warrants more likely to be killed by police than people with not criminal history at all? Are people stopped while actually breaking a law more likely to be killed than someone sitting at work? Similarly with people resisting arrest or running from cops or even factors like drug abuse. Are people doing those things more likely to be killed by police than just some woman doing her grocery shopping?

    Individual case studies can show how some of these killings happened and how they could have been avoided but from a statistical point of view we should be looking at the big picture. That means not ignoring how men are 47% of the US population but account for over 95% of deaths by police.

    Its probably interesting to note that the number of police officers killed while on duty is not really shared around too much.

    I think at the very least we could all agree that media coverage is very selective and when combined with opinion and editorial decisions it can be used to drive public perception down some very narrow paths?

    Who the **** said disproportionate killing is okay? You have warped views of what you’re reading.


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    #473
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    If there one thing we have all learned from this its that ..........we all disagree with Overheal ,

    I'm sure your a lovely person but its not healthy to think every time something bad happens to a black person its because of there race ,

    I still can't get over your comments yesterday that people working in ER would not try as hard to save black person , Its absolute nonsense you just picked from the sky & opinions like that actually cause more trouble & divide

    Not picked from the sky at all. I’m not shocked droves of Irish have no clue. But Google race bias in medicine.


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    #474
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    mohawk wrote: »
    What do the numbers look like when you control for socioeconomic status? Most people who have been shot by the police are male and poor. So the argument could also be made that the police are sexist and classist.

    Is race a factor. I think it probably is because of negative stereotypes. However I don’t think race is the full story.

    Where did I say it’s the full story!? Literally read the post you quoted. It’s *A* factor. Cop on people.


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    #475
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Overheal wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that most people aged between 20 and 35 years old are black?

    If not then you’re being nonsensical

    Yes, he is being nonsensical. That's it.


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    #476
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Overheal wrote: »
    Who the **** said disproportionate killing is okay? You have warped views of what you’re reading.

    Relax yourself.

    Not like someone died.


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    #477
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,640 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Danzy wrote: »
    Yes, he is being nonsensical. That's it.

    Hey we can agree!


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    #478
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Mod: Overheal - past experience has taught me that this particular topic is one you get heavily invested in, but frankly, sone of your responses are bordering on being dickish. Rein it in a bit.



    <edit> Nevermind, got your PM - Please don't post in the thread again.


  • Options
    #479
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    nullzero wrote: »
    I think turning a tragedy into a race issue is inflammatory. We have these issues raising their head in this country in recent times so yes turning this issue into something it isn't is normalising false narratives and anyone attempting to do that should be called out.


    You would strongly suggest I don't continue because you're not getting your way when I do.
    Too bad. If the police had been shouting racial slurs at this guy I'd happily accept what you're saying, but you and I both know that didn't happen and you've attempted to distance yourself from the idea that this issue is based in the racism of the police officers involved whilst also stating racism was a factor (making an issue of the the phrase "what I am suggesting" isn't getting you out of this one I'm afraid).

    You went on to quote an article about the likelihood of black drivers being stopped by police which again suggests a racial motivation in this case, but you're only "suggesting" it in relation to this case, not really saying it is an actual factor so that's your get out jail free card. What a load of waffle.

    Your bar of cast iron irrefutable evidence of a frame of mind with physical content would likely mean that no one would ever be guilty of racial or prejudicial acts again. According to your theory, a group from the KKK could remove their hoods and beat a silently beat a black man and it wouldn't be a racially motivated crime because, in your mind, there was no concrete evidence that it was.

    This incident, as I have said repeatedly is another example of a need for reform in American policing practices. That is my position.
    Your position is simply to ensure that this is not seen as a racist incident. And when the last incident occurred, that was the same, and when the next one occurs, it will be the same and as long as people are motivated in focusing on doing that, incidents will continue to occur.

    You are running PR for poorly performing police officers so that the conversation isn't about what type of action is needed to improve how they operate.


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    #480
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,360 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    A question to the thread.

    Can we state categorically that Duante Wright killed because of his skin colour?

    Glazers Out!



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    #481
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,252 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Overheal wrote: »
    Hey we can agree!

    Scweet.

    Mods, please close the thread.


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