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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭pekitivey


    L1011 wrote: »
    13.5% VAT is one of the lowest total tax takes on hotels in the world. 20%+ sales tax and a city night tax is normal elsewhere.

    Ok fair enough, I'm not denying the housing crisis. I'm just thinking of the tourism. I do agree that Air BnB more or less control rental markets in the larger cities they operate in. Its certainty not an easy fix, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    pekitivey wrote: »
    Ok fair enough, I'm not denying the housing crisis. I'm just thinking of the tourism. I do agree that Air BnB more or less control rental markets in the larger cities they operate in. Its certainty not an easy fix, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.

    The few thousand hotel rooms coming on stream will assist with tourism. Dublin is an expensive destination anyway (with the possible exception of public transport), broke tourists aren't going to be able to do much or contribute to the economy anyway.
    Unfortunately I don't think they'd be rentals.

    If they go for sale and are bought by someone renting, that property becomes vacant.

    Every single movement in housing units has knock-on effects. Student accomodation is often reviled as 'not providing housing for families' but it reduces the number of family homes being rented as house-shares to 4 or 5 students, returning them for sale or rental.




  • Where to next for the government. LL cant choose tenants, cant raise rent over a certain level, pay high taxes (not treated like other businesses), reduced rights with regard to getting properties back, short term let. Can the barrel be scraped any more for pointless ideas by this government ?

    With so many thousands living in hotels etc., it’s long overdue. AirBnB is grand if used to let your spare room or even do a house swop. However the number of whole homes being let is ridiculous in the current climate. Take back these homes for the homeless, I say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭jjmcclure


    <SNIP>
    Mod

    Do not discuss moderation on thread.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    I don't really understand these proposals. Many students come to Dublin in summer months for 1-3 months as a working holiday. Will it be hard now to let to this category of renter outside the rent a room scheme?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭PMBC


    L1011 wrote: »
    Realistically all that is happening is enforcement of pre-existing, long standing planning regulations.
    Planning regulations that were not being enforced. The question is will the regulations be enforced by the Plannning Authorities to clamp down on what were unauthorised developments i.e. developments that had permission for domestic not business use. I'm sure neighbours are not enthused by the daily comings and goings of tourists and short term business stayers. There are household insurance issues here as well. If you had a fire in your property anfdi t was bring let on air b nb or whatever but was insured as domestic Im sure your insurers would look for 'an out'.
    I have sympathy for landlords where tenants are not paying rent where there is a valid/legal lease.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    So properties coming back from Airbnb will definitely lead to more availability, but at what cost ??
    If the property hasn’t been rented in say 3-4 years isn’t it considered new to the market and so the 4% cap will only apply to subsequent increases not the initial rent set ?? Maybe I missed something there.
    But to be on full time rent I’d guess the income will need to be substantially higher than the Airbnb income due to risk, depreciation etc. Thus while the property is back, rents go up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    akmeeeeh wrote: »
    The largest Air bnb host in Barcelona has potential daily rental income at peak season of over 37,000 Euro. They own over 200 flats. The whole holiday rental market has to be regulated, not just because it affects residential rentals but because it affects how communities function, the quality of life of residents and potentially even what amenities are needed.
    Sorry it doesn't. Regulation adds to costs and someone real pays a higher price for regulation. It is quite likely all parties pay a higher price down the line landlord, renter and tourist. BTW why is having a daily income of 37,00 relevant?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    robp wrote: »
    I don't really understand these proposals. Many students come to Dublin in summer months for 1-3 months as a working holiday. Will it be hard now to let to this category of renter outside the rent a room scheme?

    Depends on how short term lets are defined really. If you have a place and rent it out for 9 months a year to Dublin college students and then 3 months to foreign students on a working holiday then I can't see this being a problem under proposed legislation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Doff


    Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭windmilllane


    Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I honestly don't have idea how much money landlords could earn with airbnb. Taxes are more than 50% most of the time and there is more maintenance to do
    Less maintenance to do in reality. The properties are less used than a long-term rental because by their nature it's for people who just need a base for a few days.
    So you're not going to get someone who fills the fridge, sticks on the washing machine twice a day, uses the cooker for almost every meal, and spends their evenings with the fire lit, feet up on the couch watching the telly.

    Tax is about the same as for rental income; less deductions you can make, but you can charge twice the price. Plus you can evict anyone with no notice.

    It's undoubtedly a very attractive and effective way of making money. This is why it needs to constrained to prevent housing stock being removed from general use into holiday lettings.
    Doff wrote: »
    Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.
    People using AirBnB as it was intended will be functionally unaffected by this.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Doff wrote: »
    Is it going to be totally banned in high demand areas? I stayed in a lovely airbnb over the summer when attending Marley Park, it was a conversion out the back of the owners home. I totally understand LL using apartments etc as an airbnb is a massive issue but can't help feeling sorry for the people who are doing it as it was intended that will lose out because of this.

    If anything, this legislation might help AirBnB get back to its precise, original purpose: to let folks share their spare rooms for outgoing travellers. They won't be affected by these new laws at all, and the service was never meant to be a loophole for enterprising owners to make a fast buck & effectively avoid regulation / taxation. The braying from those losing out seems like sour grapes having been found out.




  • Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment

    Theres a lot about it here. https://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-new-airbnb-laws-4304640-Oct2018/


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,001 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    in the end tenants will pay more

    But there are restrictions on landlords upping the rent. I think its 4%.

    Just sit back and watch


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,001 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Is there anywhere I can find a list of places the restrictions apply to? I asking about Westport where my parents own an apartment

    Westport. .. LOL


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 JPFabo


    Disgraceful....Private sector yet again paying for a public sector mess. Another sticky plaster by the minister who is trying to deflect from his and his governments inactions by making it look like they are doing something. Banning AirBNB Will not make a blind bit of difference, just as the rent pressure zones haven't either. People will continue to advertise their properties on the hundreds of other websites around the world that offer the same service, who is going to police all of these? Nobody! Or more landlords will just sell up and leave the market, for some its a business, if your business isn't making a profit you close it down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭Nermal


    L1011 wrote: »
    The few thousand hotel rooms coming on stream will assist with tourism. Dublin is an expensive destination anyway (with the possible exception of public transport), broke tourists aren't going to be able to do much or contribute to the economy anyway.

    I am far from broke, but I don't like staying in hotels, I prefer staying in apartments. I don't make noise or discommode the residents wherever I stay. It's just more government interference in private property rights.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Just sit back and watch

    +1 , if these properties were making 4-5k a month on airbnb and havent been long term rented in 2-3 years, you'd bet theres a case to put them back on the market for 3500 a month etc..


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    It should lead to either more rentals or more houses appearing for sale on the market. Either result is good. It may lead to more empty properties though, depending on the situation of the owner.

    I really doubt it tbh. The status quo at present favours the tennant over and above anything else. Anyone with a property to rent faces high taxation, a very real risk of the their property being trashed, rent payments being withheld or no rent being paid at all and being totally without any legal mechanism to fix any of this or even get rid of bad tennants.

    Why in God's name would anyone choose to rent out anything under those conditions?

    Airbnb provided those renting with a fairly straighforward means of earning a guanteed income and a means to manage short term tennancies.

    In the UK ballifs are involved to help property owners where tennants break their rental agreements etc. In Ireland we have bodies advocating that even bad tennants should refuse to leave properties despite proper notice and even legal action taken.

    The whole setup is crazy imo.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    JPFabo wrote: »
    Disgraceful....Private sector yet again paying for a public sector mess. Another sticky plaster by the minister who is trying to deflect from his and his governments inactions by making it look like they are doing something. Banning AirBNB Will not make a blind bit of difference, just as the rent pressure zones haven't either. People will continue to advertise their properties on the hundreds of other websites around the world that offer the same service, who is going to police all of these?.

    The law isn't going to ban/limit AirBnB specifically, it's going to limit short term lets. So your point is moot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Well hopefully the market will have picked up a bit more by June 2019 and Mrs. Cogley will finally agree to sell!


  • Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Sheepdish1


    meeeeh wrote: »
    The largest Air bnb host in Barcelona has potential daily rental income at peak season of over 37,000 Euro. They own over 200 flats. The whole holiday rental market has to be regulated, not just because it affects residential rentals but because it affects how communities function, the quality of life of residents and potentially even what amenities are needed.

    Imagine saving for apartment to find out apartment next to you is short term let’s all year around. You’re right in how affects how communities function.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,499 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    gozunda wrote: »
    I really doubt it tbh. The status quo at present favours the tennant over and above anything else. Anyone with a property to rent faces high taxation, a very real risk of the their property being trashed, rent paymenys being withheld or no rent being paid at all and being totally without any legal mechanism to fix any of this or even get rid of bad tennants.

    Why in God's name would anyone choose to rent out anything under those conditions?

    Airbnb provided those renting with a fairly straighforward means of earning a guanteed income and a means to manage short term tennancies.

    In the UK ballifs are involved to help property owners where tennants break their rental agreements etc. In Ireland we have bodies advocating that even bad tennants should refuse to leave properties despite proper notice and even legal action taken.

    The whole setup is crazy imo.

    Agreed, landlords moved to Airbnb due to the issues with renting. I would expect many will not move back or if they do rent will be a hell of a lot higher.

    Also rental properties have higher density so if they go for sale it will put even more pressure on the rental market.

    More populist nonsense from the minister that will worsen the situation. People should be encouraged, not beaten with regulations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,229 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    L1011 wrote: »
    Realistically all that is happening is enforcement of pre-existing, long standing planning regulations.

    Won't stop property owners who have been making money hand over fist crying over the death of their cash cow.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    robp wrote: »
    Sorry it doesn't. Regulation adds to costs and someone real pays a higher price for regulation. It is quite likely all parties pay a higher price down the line landlord, renter and tourist. BTW why is having a daily income of 37,00 relevant?

    Regulation is needed if you want some sort of a sustainable residential development so that schools are built and other amenities can be planned and built. If half of estate are turists they won't need a school. As for turists they will be fine. Travel is not basic human need, housing is.

    As 37,000 daily income, Air Bnb was intended as small time rentals not commercial enterprise. If locals are pushed out of cities because of short time lettings it will diminish the quality of life for everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    Amirani wrote: »
    Depends on how short term lets are defined really. If you have a place and rent it out for 9 months a year to Dublin college students and then 3 months to foreign students on a working holiday then I can't see this being a problem under proposed legislation.

    Anything over 2 weeks isn't considered short term for this legislation, so landlords can rent to college and summer students, provided all tenancies are over 2 weeks


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 JPFabo


    Amirani wrote: »
    The law isn't going to ban/limit AirBnB specifically, it's going to limit short term lets. So your point is moot.

    Its a ban on landlords.....no landlord is going to be issued with a short term letting licence, so its a ban, no two ways about it. The government can spin it how they want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Perhaps if renting long term was safe and productive for LLs, you know equal rights for tenant and landlord and a contract between both, taxation measures, swift evictions under the law, no overholding, no illegal evictions etc. etc. well then LLs would not have opted for the safer choice of ABB in the first place.

    That's probably where the problem lies.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Perhaps if renting long-term was safe and productive for LLs, you know equal rights for tenant and landlord and a contract between both, taxation measures, swift evictions under the law, no overholding, no illegal evictions etc. etc. well then LLs would not have opted for the safer choice of ABB in the first place.

    That's probably where the problem lies.

    agree entirely. it's a 2-way street, or at least it should be.
    small (mainly Irish) LLs have been treated very unfairly, much in the same way small local entrepreneurs/business have been vis a vis large online conglomerates.

    if the playing field was even level it would be something, but it's a bit like asking Shamrock Rovers to compete against Man City after giving City a 3-0 headstart.

    it's way past time to redress this imbalance.


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