BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LXFlyer · 30-05-2017 11:46am

bk wrote: »

I agree completely, great comment. However I think the whole document is well worth discussing, which is why I've started a new thread to discuss it overall and not just the Network Review, which is just one important element of it.

Just on this point, you are absolutely correct that the Network Review will decide what routes use these corridors, but I think people are missing a more significant point from this document. That they plan to significantly upgrade all these routes, with a fully contiguous bus lanes, road widening works, removing onstreet car parking, dedicated cycle lane off the bus lane and other bus priority measures.

These changes are VERY significant, if done well they could significantly speed up which ever routes are decided to use these corridors.

That's fair enough! There is an awful lot in it, with the network review being only one (albeit significant) part of it!! Plenty to consider!

Regarding the bus priority measures, again the devil will be in the detail. I still have nagging doubts that they can deliver fully segregated cycle lanes and 100% bus lanes along every corridor.

Take Terenure Road East for much of its length, and in particular in Terenure Village itself. Without demolishing the entire village on that stretch (which I suspect is not realistic), that's going to be impossible (unless you ban cars completely), and similar issues are prevalent in parts of Rathmines.

Now of course some land could be CPO'd, but I think significant amounts of CPO activity may be needed, and that's going to create a lot of political issues all of its own.

So it's a matter of wait and see what they come up with and examining the detailed proposals when they materialise.

But there's a lot of good material in the plan and plenty to look forward to.

bk · 30-05-2017 11:47am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The other thing is that a lot of the characteristics that were originally planned for the BRT (like cashless, queue less, livery, new bus stops and so on) and now being proposed for the whole network.

Those changes were always proposed for the whole network and frankly should have been made years ago. Non of it is rocket scince, pretty much the norm across Europe for the past 40 years!

However there will still be significant differences.

- DB will still be onboard ticket validation, versus, Luas style off board ticket validation
- DB will be enter through only the front door, where as BRT will be entry/exit through any of the the 3 to 4 doors
- BRT will have Luas style raised platforms which are easier for disabled and elderly to use.
- Single decker bendi style buses versus double deckers.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

For me, clear design issues have arisen from the BRT project. In particular, having two 'classes' of buses on BRT routes makes little sense. What is good for the BRT bus should, generally speaking, be good for the regular bus too. These BRTs are slowly morphing into corridors rather than fancy bus services.

No, they aren't. 3 to 4 door single decker-bendi buses, versus one to two door double deckers, big difference in level of service. multi-door single deckers are much quicker to get on/off then double deckers and are more accessible for elderly and disabled.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would also say that bus services in Dublin are about to enter a period of major crisis, as Luas cross-city comes in, attracting customers and breaking the pattern. It is really the last possible opportunity for some radical thinking.

I agree.

antoinolachtnai · 30-05-2017 11:47am

Some of the services are pretty awful when you get down to the detail and look at them. The costs are often high too, especially if you have to change bus to get to the destination.

I would be very careful about the 'stick' approach.

coylemj · 30-05-2017 11:47am

I sincerely hope that this will involve ruthless enforcement of rules around bus lanes and specifically that taxis will not be allowed to stop in them to pick up/set down. Otherwise the BRT system will not work.

There will be great fun in Donnybrook mid-morning with all the delivery vans in the inbound bus lane blocking the BRT buses.

bk · 30-05-2017 11:50am

lxflyer wrote: »

Regarding the bus priority measures, again the devil will be in the detail. I still have nagging doubts that they can deliver fully segregated cycle lanes and 100% bus lanes along every corridor.

Sure, it will be though, but if it was easy we would have done it years ago.

However even small changes can have big effects, even if you don't get to quite 100%. The Cat & Cage in Drumcondra is an example of it. That change is only about 100 meters long of the length of the bus corridor, yet it easily wiped 10 to 15 minutes off the journey time. And pretty much proved such changes are well worth making.

bk · 30-05-2017 11:53am

coylemj wrote: »

I sincerely hope that this will involve ruthless enforcement of rules around bus lanes and specifically that taxis will not be allowed to stop in them to pick up/set down. Otherwise the BRT system will not work.

There will be great fun in Donnybrook mid-morning with all the delivery vans in the inbound bus lane blocking the BRT buses.

I agree that this was the one major element missing from the report, enforcement.

IMO it really needs to be taken out of the hands of the Gardai * and put into automated means, via stationary and on-board bus cameras.

* They can of course still do enforcement on an ad-hock basis, but they need to stop being the only ones doing it.

Mrs OBumble · 30-05-2017 11:57am

Should the initiative really be called DublinConnect?

LXFlyer · 30-05-2017 11:59am

bk wrote: »

Sure, it will be though, but if it was easy we would have done it years ago.

However even small changes can have big effects, even if you don't get to quite 100%. The Cat & Cage in Drumcondra is an example of it. That change is only about 100 meters long of the length of the bus corridor, yet it easily wiped 10 to 15 minutes off the journey time. And pretty much proved such changes are well worth making.

Agreed - but I do think that they need to be careful in making claims like 100% continuous bus lanes and separated cycle lanes along all corridors.

People have a habit of taking this sort of stuff completely literally (as we have seen this morning), and that's not always going to be possible to deliver.

bk · 30-05-2017 12:02pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Should the initiative really be called DublinConnect?

Obviously the plan is a Dublin focused one, but it is a primarily a Bus focused one and not really focused on Luas, Dart, etc. for a change, so DublinConnects wouldn't make sense.

However having said that, some of the changes should certainly apply across the country, for instance Leap accepting contactless debit cards and mobile payment. Also hopefully some of the concepts can be proven in Dublin and will eventually be implemented in the rest of the country too.

bk · 30-05-2017 12:09pm

I think what strikes me about this plan, is that for once, the entire bus network is seen as an overall transport system and that big changes need to be made to the overall system to significantly improve it.

And that yes, that means spending lots of extra money, not just on new buses, but on road infrastructure improvements, bus priority, etc.

It seems like we could be finally seeing a big injection of cash into bus services and infrastructure in Dublin.

coylemj · 30-05-2017 12:49pm

Anyone care to guess as to why the south-east BRT route stops at UCD instead of going further out the N11?

The 46A serves the N11 as far south as Foxrock Church and is one of the heaviest used services on the existing DB network - surely UCD to Foxrock warranted inclusion as a BRT route? It's too far from the Luas or Dart to walk so that corridor surely deserves a BRT service?

mickmmc · 30-05-2017 12:56pm

Re: Cat and Cage bus lane upgrade

Three?? members of the last government attended St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra:

Mr. Enda Kenny - An Taoiseach
Mr. Brendan Howlin - Minister for Public Expenditure & Reform
Mr. Michael Noonan?? - Minister for Finance - taught at 2nd level but may have attended St. Pats.

The above government members supported the new library in St. Pat's and allocated funding. Land was then given by St. Pat's for the bus lane upgrade.

The mess that was at the Cat and Cage could be still going on if the library was not built at St. Pat's. Three government ministers got that upgraded due to their loyalty to St. Pat's.

No library - no bus lane upgrade.

bk · 30-05-2017 1:20pm

mickmmc, I'm not sure what your point is?

We all know that such upgrades will require CPO's and thus cash to make them happen.

We spent hundreds of millions on Luas and billions on Motorways, much of which was spent on CPO's. So I don't see what he issue would be with spending a couple of million on CPO's for improved bus lanes to help improve the form of transport that carries the most people in Dublin by a massive margin!

It would finally be a welcome investment and a recognition that buses need their own dedicated infrastructure and not just a line painted on a road.

I see the Cat & Cage upgrade as a test ballon for this concept. It required significant money to achieve and a CPO, but has resulted in fantastic results from what I can see.

I think it has proven the concept that it is worth CPO'ing land and remove onstreet parking space to improve bus infrastructure at least along the key corridors.

Dyr · 30-05-2017 1:21pm

Bus this morning, same craic as always..the horde of [MOD EDIT:] OAPs [MOD EDIT] all shuffle up towards the front exit. The Driver as usual, doesn't even bother opening the side doors.

Nothing will change until policies are enforced

_Kaiser_ · 30-05-2017 1:28pm

bk wrote: »

mickmmc, I'm not sure what your point is?

We all know that such upgrades will require CPO's and thus cash to make them happen.

We spent hundreds of millions on Luas and billions on Motorways, much of which was spent on CPO's. So I don't see what he issue would be with spending a couple of million on CPO's for improved bus lanes to help improve the form of transport that carries the most people in Dublin by a massive margin!

It would finally be a welcome investment and a recognition that buses need their own dedicated infrastructure and not just a line painted on a road.

I see the Cat & Cage upgrade as a test ballon for this concept. It required significant money to achieve and a CPO, but has resulted in fantastic results from what I can see.

I think it has proven the concept that it is worth CPO'ing land and remove onstreet parking space to improve bus infrastructure at least along the key corridors.

I think the point he's making (open to correction though) is that unless there's direct political input/benefits for same, then this is just another shiny report that will gather dust somewhere, or not look anything like it's being presented when it's finished.

bk · 30-05-2017 2:09pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think the point he's making (open to correction though) is that unless there's direct political input/benefits for same, then this is just another shiny report that will gather dust somewhere, or not look anything like it's being presented when it's finished.

Hey, you may well be right, it certainly wouldn't be the first time we are all disappointed.

However I do think this one feels different. Luas Cross City will be soon be finished and it is clear they aren't ready to start on MN or DU. So they will be left with no major project to work on for a few years, which isn't good with an upcoming election in a few years.

And different forget we are likely to soon have a North Dublin based Taoiseach, it wouldn't look good for no new public transport projects to be built in Dublin over the next 5 years.

As a result, they really need a major visible project to be working on, so a bunch of major bus upgrades, built around BRT and the core bus corridors would be politically ideal IMO.

Highly visible and welcome to those living in Dublin, but perhaps cheap enough to fly under the radar of the national press and rural Ireland in a way that MN or DU couldn't.

Actually now that I write this, it actually sounds like an ideal plan to work on politically. The only downside to this is that it might leave the politicians get away with long fingering MN for another few years.

mickmmc · 30-05-2017 3:51pm

You (OP) raised the issue of the Cat and Cage bus lane upgrade and I gave the background to the upgrade.

The point I making is that the NTA should not be given full credit for the upgrade of the Cat and Cage bus lane. The government at the time gave funding for the new library to St. Pat's (a state body) and the upgrade of the bus lane then took place.

Stephen15 · 30-05-2017 4:30pm

Bambi wrote: »

Bus this morning, same craic as always..the horde of [MOD EDIT:] OAPs [MOD EDIT] all shuffle up towards the front exit. The Driver as usual, doesn't even bother opening the side doors.

Nothing will change until policies are enforced

Tbh boarding and disembarking should be allowed at both the front and middle doors. In an ideal world there would be three doors with passengers getting on and off at all three doors. There should also be multiple validators inside the bus and validation should be done while the bus is in motion.

I was in Palermo in Italy recently and all the city buses over there were had limited seating but plenty of standing room. They were all single deckers and route with higher usage made use of bendybuses BRT style with a bus lane. Most of the buses from the suburbs connected at the football stadium with a single BRT style route which ran on a straight wide road to the train station. This system did have its disadvantages as buses were very overcrowded also some of the buses were ancient.

bk · 30-05-2017 5:22pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Tbh boarding and disembarking should be allowed at both the front and middle doors. In an ideal world there would be three doors with passengers getting on and off at all three doors. There should also be multiple validators inside the bus and validation should be done while the bus is in motion.

Yup pretty common throughout Europe for the past 40 or 50 years!

Before smart cards, you just bought a book of tickets from the local shop. You validated the ticket by tearing one off and the machine stamped the date and time on it. You then typically have 60 or 90 minutes to use the ticket across as many buses, trams and metros as you like.

So simple and effective!

Stephen15 · 30-05-2017 5:32pm

bk wrote: »

Yup pretty common throughout Europe for the past 40 or 50 years!

Before smart cards, you just bought a book of tickets from the local shop. You validated the ticket by tearing one off and the machine stamped the date and time on it. You then typically have 60 or 90 minutes to use the ticket across as many buses, trams and metros as you like.

So simple and effective!

Actually those tickets are still in use in many cities across Europe. I actually it's a better system than smarts as its allows better for multi modal journeys without paying twice.

bk · 30-05-2017 5:39pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Actually those tickets are still in use in many cities across Europe. I actually it's a better system than smarts as its allows better for multi modal journeys without paying twice.

Well smart cards can do the same as well and usually do in cities where they replace the old paper tickets.

You tag-on on the first bus and then you don't need to tag on again on the next bus. If you do tag-on the second one then you just aren't charged again.

antoinolachtnai · 30-05-2017 5:57pm

We already have the basic infrastructure, even if it needs modification. It was really murder to get it as far as it is today.

bk · 30-05-2017 6:23pm

mickmmc wrote: »

You (OP) raised the issue of the Cat and Cage bus lane upgrade and I gave the background to the upgrade.

The point I making is that the NTA should not be given full credit for the upgrade of the Cat and Cage bus lane. The government at the time gave funding for the new library to St. Pat's (a state body) and the upgrade of the bus lane then took place.

Sure, I don't think anyone claimed it was all just the NTA's doing.

I assume that it went something like the NTA being one arm of the government identified a bottleneck at the Cat & Gage and saw the opportunity to fix it by using contacts in the government to work with another arm of the government (St Pats) to do a deal to swap a little land for financing for a new library that St Pats needed. And I assume they also worked with TII, DCC and the Department of Transport and Department of Finance while doing all this.

St Pats got a new library for it's students and bus users got a faster journey into town. Sounds like a win, win all round to me and an example of how I would like to see all government departments to work together!

And in fairness I'm sure DB had long highlighted this bottleneck to the NTA too and I would hope worked with them on the justification for it's removal.

Wheety · 30-05-2017 6:37pm

As good as all this sounds, they really need to look further into the future. Dublin needs an underground. All these above ground systems are not going to stop Dublin grinding to a halt.

London are nearly finished Crossrail. See if the chaps want a nixer when they're finished.

thebsharp · 30-05-2017 6:38pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Should the initiative really be called DublinConnect?

NTA CEO was saying the following related to bus network across the country;

- developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using credit
and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment
accounts and making payment much more convenient;

- implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed up
passenger boarding times;

- revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare
structure, allowing seamless movement between different
transport services without financial penalty;

- implementing a new bus livery providing a modern look and
feel to the new bus system;

- rolling out new bus stops with better signage and
information and increasing the provision of additional bus
shelters; and

- transitioning - starting now - to a new bus fleet using low-
emission vehicle technologies.

A lot of big towns and cities across Ireland have been undertaking their own studies in relation to improving transportation. Unfortunately they don't grab the same headlines. For example, a major study has been ongoing for Galway over the last 12months but we don't get to hear about it.

thebsharp · 30-05-2017 6:44pm

Great outline for a plan, let's hope we can follow through and implement it.

D14Rugby · 30-05-2017 6:55pm

It's probably been brought up already I think but I can't see a clear answer so maybe not so I'll ask anyway. what's the story going to be for the Harold's cross to rathfarnham section? You're going to have to close whole roads to cars to give buses their own lanes either way on lots of roads on that route especially pre dodder are they going to split the route down two parallelish roads to avoid the complete inconvenience to home owners along it?

bk · 30-05-2017 7:04pm

Wheety wrote: »

As good as all this sounds, they really need to look further into the future. Dublin needs an underground. All these above ground systems are not going to stop Dublin grinding to a halt.

London are nearly finished Crossrail. See if the chaps want a nixer when they're finished.

I don't think you would find anyone on this forum who would disagree with you that we should be building Metro North and Dart Underground today.

However just to point out, in London, despite how great London Underground is, London Bus still carries twice as many passengers as the underground does every day!

So even when we finally get MN and DU, buses will still similarly carry more passengers then rail and still will be vital to the cities public transport, thus projects like this to improve buses is needed either way.

Stephen15 · 30-05-2017 7:26pm

On the subject of BRTs isn't there one being built up in Belfast?

bk · 30-05-2017 7:50pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

On the subject of BRTs isn't there one being built up in Belfast?

Yes and it looks like almost exactly the same as what the NTA are planning for here:

https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.uk/articles/belfast-rapid-transit-introduction

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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