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Are we living during the time of the First Seal of Revelation?

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Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    A lot of this stuff is why the evangelicals in America support Israel, and were so enthusiastic about moving the US embassy, as they saw it as one step further toward the end of the world.

    Now, if you have your life in order (who does?) the end of the world, the resurrection, the final judgement and all that are good things. Now, this is not to say that they are bad things in any context, but I don't think I would feel confident to want it to happen asap. A lot of the commentary is not necessarily of the "repent", warning kind, but more of an inpatient foot-tapping 'when does the party start?' kind.

    Of course, even if the end of the world is not imminent (but who knows?) each of us will certainly die, perhaps much sooner than we think. In my mind our own impending deaths should be encouragement enough in a moral sense to live correctly (although this is a very one dimensional approach to doing God's will, and not the best) in its own right. I have found the whole 'memento mori' thing far more useful than thinking about the end of the world happening tomorrow. The world might end tomorrow, or it might end in thousands of years. I will definitely die within the next number of decades. I suppose if you are 'ready' to die and in a decent place for your particular judgement, you would be ok for the last judgement too.


  • #33
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What comes to mind much more strongly is — money. Nobody can buy or sell anything without handling money. Of course, money isn't a mark on the right hand or the forehead but, then, neither is a vaccine passport.

    And money, of course, at the time the Revelations was written, came the an image of the emperor, and his name, or a cipher of his name. (Indeed, this is pretty much true for the coinage down to our own day.) That fits with the "name of the beast" stuff much more than a vaccine certificate or similar.

    We know what this is about, guys; we've always known. It's about the Emperor Nero.


    I don't think money can be used in the same context as digital passports or similar to the make of the beast.


    Money enables the exchange of goods and doesn't restrict anyone from using it.


    Digital passports restrict freedoms, the mark of the beast restricts even more freedoms.


    I think the Chinese Social Credit system is the closet thing we have on earth too a Mark of the beast at the moment.


    It's handing more granular control to the governments over peoples lives.


    A lot of people don't thing that politicians will not always have the best intentions in mind if they hand them total control over everything they are allowed do in life.


  • #34
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,020 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    NaFirinne wrote: »
    I don't think money can be used in the same context as digital passports or similar to the make of the beast.


    Money enables the exchange of goods and doesn't restrict anyone from using it.


    Digital passports restrict freedoms, the mark of the beast restricts even more freedoms.


    I think the Chinese Social Credit system is the closet thing we have on earth too a Mark of the beast at the moment.


    It's handing more granular control to the governments over peoples lives.


    A lot of people don't thing that politicians will not always have the best intentions in mind if they hand them total control over everything they are allowed do in life.
    Money was a problem for the readership for which the Revelation was written because it had the emperor's image on it, which Jews considered distasteful and borderline blasphemous. They had little choice but to use the Roman coinage but they experienced the requirement to do so as oppressive and humiliating. And this was true in spades for Jewish Christians, who in addition to the above were the target of persecution by Nero.

    And I think if you do want to try and draw lesson for today from Revelation, consider that money, rather than vaccine certificates, may still be the appropriate comparator. Vaccination isn't a threat to the faith, but capitalism, materialism and the worship of Mammon certainly are.

    (And as for handing over "granular control over your life", is the problem here governments, or is it Amazon, Facebook and big data?)

    On edit: I guess the wider point is, no matter what times you're living in, it's always possible to "map" the Revelation, or snippets of it, onto some contemporary event or phenomenon, and usually on to more than one. The result is that those who are disposed to use the Revelation in an attempt to predict the future (for which, incidentally, there is no warrant in the Revelation itself) invariably conclude that they are living in the very times that the Revelation purportedly predicts. They never, ever conclude that the times to which the Revelation supposedly refers actually occurred several hundred years ago, or that they will not occur for several hundred more years. No, it's always now.

    If this means anything (other than pointing to our perennial preoccupation with ourselves and our central importance to human and salvation history) it means that the message of the Revelation is timeless; it's always relevant. And the process of connecting Revelation to your own times is simply a matter of reading the signs of the times. Which, of course, you should be able to do even without the Revelation.


  • #35
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    Given what's happening these days in Israel and Gaza, we might be near the times


  • #36
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,823 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Israel has been in a perpetual state of conflict ever since (and before) it was set up. Two wrongs don't make a right, but given the history of the Jewish people and the hostility of their neighbours, their belligerance is understandable. It's not "end times" just normal times in that religiously conflicted part of the world, unfortunately.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    A lot of this stuff is why the evangelicals in America support Israel, and were so enthusiastic about moving the US embassy, as they saw it as one step further toward the end of the world.

    Now, if you have your life in order (who does?) the end of the world, the resurrection, the final judgement and all that are good things. Now, this is not to say that they are bad things in any context, but I don't think I would feel confident to want it to happen asap. A lot of the commentary is not necessarily of the "repent", warning kind, but more of an inpatient foot-tapping 'when does the party start?' kind.

    Of course, even if the end of the world is not imminent (but who knows?) each of us will certainly die, perhaps much sooner than we think. In my mind our own impending deaths should be encouragement enough in a moral sense to live correctly (although this is a very one dimensional approach to doing God's will, and not the best) in its own right. I have found the whole 'memento mori' thing far more useful than thinking about the end of the world happening tomorrow. The world might end tomorrow, or it might end in thousands of years. I will definitely die within the next number of decades. I suppose if you are 'ready' to die and in a decent place for your particular judgement, you would be ok for the last judgement too.

    Anyone looking forward to the end of the world and trying to bring it about seems to be the very opposite of how a Christian, and indeed members other religions should act and think.

    No sane person would want the world to end. Anyone saying that they are looking forward to it, shows that they have no joy in their lives or anything to live for and they just want other people to suffer as much as they do.


  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Israel has been in a perpetual state of conflict ever since (and before) it was set up. Two wrongs don't make a right, but given the history of the Jewish people and the hostility of their neighbours, their belligerance is understandable. It's not "end times" just normal times in that religiously conflicted part of the world, unfortunately.

    As highlighted by a number of Israelis, their government is treating Palestinians like Jewish people have been treated in different periods of history. Encroachment on lands and hindering medical aid during a pandemic is not the act of a government who are friendly or willing to do the right thing.


  • #39
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    branie2 wrote: »
    Given what's happening these days in Israel and Gaza, we might be near the times

    I bet you 100euro you are wrong and the end isn't coming at all.
    Want to take me up on the bet?

    If you are so sure you have nothing to loose ;)


  • #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Anyone looking forward to the end of the world and trying to bring it about seems to be the very opposite of how a Christian, and indeed members other religions should act and think.

    No sane person or someone who isn't manic depressive would want the world to end. Anyone saying that they are looking forward to it, shows that they have no joy in their lives or anything to live for and they just want other people to suffer as much as they do.

    The end of this world isn't really the 'end' of everything you know. It is not a nihilistic vision, like that of the Godless materialist where death is indeed the end.


  • #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I bet you 100euro you are wrong and the end isn't coming at all.
    Want to take me up on the bet?

    If you are so sure you have nothing to loose ;)
    Ha. If he is right how are you going to pay him?


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  • #42
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    Ha. If he is right how are you going to pay him?

    If he's right (which he won't be..just like pope's etc haven't been) then it won't matter, but if his god will allow I'll still pay out
    If I'm not allowed pay he'll have to blame his god.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Cabaal wrote: »
    If he's right (which he won't be..just like pope's etc haven't been) then it won't matter.

    But given I'm not a christian he'll be happy in the knowledge that apparently his god won't be a big fan of me. ;)
    How about you give me €100, and I'll give you €200 back if the world never ends?

    God is a 'big fan' of you, like He is of everyone. You'll be judged on what you have done, only God knows what He will make of that.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Israel has been in a perpetual state of conflict ever since (and before) it was set up. Two wrongs don't make a right, but given the history of the Jewish people and the hostility of their neighbours, their belligerance is understandable. It's not "end times" just normal times in that religiously conflicted part of the world, unfortunately.

    It is rather disturbing, I must say, to see recent horrors and massacre being portrayed as mere "understandable belligerence".


  • #45
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    How about you give me €100, and I'll give you €200 back if the world never ends?

    You're not a bookies, I won't be giving you a penny. God knows you are dodgy :pac:

    How about if the world doesn't end by this day next year you delete your boards.ie account. No money involved :)

    If you believe the world will end you are at zero risk or any loss or money.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You're not a bookies, I won't be giving you a penny. God knows you are dodgy :pac:

    How about if the world doesn't end by this day next year you delete your boards.ie account. No money involved :)

    If you believe the world will end you are at zero risk or any loss or money.
    I do believe the world will end at some stage (who doesn't?) but I have no idea when. Could be tomorrow, could be in a million years.

    No, you'll have to do better than that to get rid of me :) Besides, it would be unchristian of me to abandon those who claim they do not believe in God, yet, somewhat Herod-like, feel compelled to discuss Him.


  • #47
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,012 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod warning:

    Ex loco refugii, you have altered a quote from Cabaal in order to give the answer you prefer. If you must alter quotes you should at least indicate in your reply that you have done so. Whether or not it was intended to be 'in jest' is irrelevant.

    Do not respond to this warning in thread.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    looksee wrote: »
    Mod warning:

    Ex loco refugii, you have altered a quote from Cabaal in order to give the answer you prefer. If you must alter quotes you should at least indicate in your reply that you have done so. Whether or not it was intended to be 'in jest' is irrelevant.

    Do not respond to this warning in thread.

    I did not edit anything, I think Cabaal edited his post himself in the short time-frame before "edited at" shows.


  • #49
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,823 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    It is rather disturbing, I must say, to see recent horrors and massacre being portrayed as mere "understandable belligerence".

    There is a difference between explaining and excusing.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    The end of this world isn't really the 'end' of everything you know. It is not a nihilistic vision, like that of the Godless materialist where death is indeed the end.

    Actually it is if you are looking forward to it ending and actively trying to bring it about, because you believe that you and a chosen few are going somewhere special, when actually you wouldn't be due to those very hopes and actions.
    It's definitely shows an inability to enjoy life and all it brings, and money or materialism has nothing to do with that.


  • #51
    Fuzzyduzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Fuzzyduzzy


    Could be connected? Curious what the religious perspective is on this.
    https://twitter.com/PostDisclosure/status/1393927278669746179?s=20


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  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Fuzzyduzzy wrote: »
    Could be connected? Curious what the religious perspective is on this.
    https://twitter.com/PostDisclosure/status/1393927278669746179?s=20

    Catholics and the catholic church have long considered this... here is something relatively recent: https://catholicreview.org/vatican-astronomer-says-if-aliens-exist-they-may-not-need-redemption/


  • #53
    santana75
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭santana75


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Actually it is if you are looking forward to it ending and actively trying to bring it about, because you believe that you and a chosen few are going somewhere special, when actually you wouldn't be due to those very hopes and actions.
    It's definitely shows an inability to enjoy life and all it brings, and money or materialism has nothing to do with that.

    I think maybe you should go back and read Revelation again. You're assessment of how christians view "The end of days" is a bit misinformed.


  • #54
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah" Matt 12:39

    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    But about that day or hour NO ONE knows, NOT EVEN the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father. " Matt 24:35-36

    Certain people from EVERY generation from the apostles to now, believe they must be in the "end times"
    I'm sure some of those that lived though the persecutions in Rome, the bubonic plague, the Vikings, penal laws, famine, WWI, WW2, etc. etc. thought so too.

    Overall, over time, as man evolves and improves society, the world is becoming a better place, not a worse one.
    Yes some things become temporally worse during man's progress . . it's not a straight line graph.

    I'd rather be living now than compared to any other generation.
    We all live like kings compared to how anyone a few hundred years ago had to.


  • #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    santana75 wrote: »
    I think maybe you should go back and read Revelation again. You're assessment of how christians view "The end of days" is a bit misinformed.

    Not really, I actually took the time to discuss it with my cousin who is a Catholic priest.
    The consensus was that someone actively looking forward to the end of the world and trying to bring it around would indicate that the person has issues that they should reareally talk to someone about.

    That's not to say that believing in God and living your life in a good way is anything that indicates a person has issues that they need to talk about, I certainly wouldn't make that claim or try to offended anyone by saying so.

    But actively looking forward to the end of the world and actively trying to bring it about is just not something a healthy person regardless of any Christian or non Christian religious beliefs should want, and would have no need to, given that once they die, they will be entering heaven if they lived their life well.


  • #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Not really, I actually took the time to discuss it with my cousin who is a Catholic priest.
    The consensus was that someone actively looking forward to the end of the world and trying to bring it around would indicate that the person has issues that they should reareally talk to someone about.

    That's not to say that believing in God and living your life in a good way is anything that indicates a person has issues that they need to talk about, I certainly wouldn't make that claim or try to offended anyone by saying so.

    But actively looking forward to the end of the world and actively trying to bring it about is just not something a healthy person regardless of any Christian or non Christian religious beliefs should want, and would have no need to, given that once they die, they will be entering heaven if they lived their life well.

    I don't think people are actively trying to bring it about, rather that they see happenings that are not of their own instigation as being signals that we are one step closer.


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Jayla Orange Turtle wrote: »
    I don't think people are actively trying to bring it about, rather that they see happenings that are not of their own instigation as being signals that we are one step closer.

    Well as you yourself said that the likes of the evangelicals in America support Israel, and were so enthusiastic about moving the US embassy, as they saw it as one step further toward the end of the world.

    That's certainly trying to actively bring it about in my opinion, especially through the presence they have in the American republican party and in turn American policy in the region, resulting in the deaths of innocent people.

    Now while the likes of the red heifier stunt may be something of a grift in terms of the crowd funding attempt, people who actively believe it and try to bring it about are also causing tensions in the region and again ultimately causing more the deaths of more innocent people.

    I honestly can't see how anyone in good faith can't say that people like this are either evil or have mental health issues.


  • #58
    santana75
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭santana75


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Not really, I actually took the time to discuss it with my cousin who is a Catholic priest.
    The consensus was that someone actively looking forward to the end of the world and trying to bring it around would indicate that the person has issues that they should reareally talk to someone about.

    That's not to say that believing in God and living your life in a good way is anything that indicates a person has issues that they need to talk about, I certainly wouldn't make that claim or try to offended anyone by saying so.

    But actively looking forward to the end of the world and actively trying to bring it about is just not something a healthy person regardless of any Christian or non Christian religious beliefs should want, and would have no need to, given that once they die, they will be entering heaven if they lived their life well.

    I dont know a single Christian who is actively trying to bring about the end of the world. In revelation 21 it describes how the "New Jerusalem" will come about. God himself will be the light of the world, anything that causes sin will be done away with, all pain, sorrow, grief, disease, gone. To me this is something to look forward to. Its not so much the passing of the "Old world" that christians look forward to as it is the birth of a new one. And like with any birth there'll be labor pains beforehand.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    santana75 wrote: »

    I dont know a single Christian who is actively trying to bring about the end of the world. In revelation 21 it describes how the "New Jerusalem" will come about. God himself will be the light of the world, anything that causes sin will be done away with, all pain, sorrow, grief, disease, gone. To me this is something to look forward to. Its not so much the passing of the "Old world" that christians look forward to as it is the birth of a new one. And like with any birth there'll be labor pains beforehand.

    I don't know a single hemophiliac , but that doesn't negate the fact that they exist.

    As for a bright new world, on a spiritual plane it may be possible and it is already what awaits you when you die and not just in Christianity.

    In reality when dealing with life it isn't, someone will start to disagree with someone's interpretation of what God wants and seek to destroy them for holding different beliefs.


  • #60
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,012 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Mod:

    Post deleted and warning given. harrylittle you have been warned about posting this kind of material, especially with no comment or discussion. Any more will result in a ban. Do not respond to this warning on thread, take any discussion to pm.


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