Homeopathy?

hipchick · 15-12-2003 4:02pm

First things first, the reason i quoted that homeopathy works for breast cancer is because when a friend visit her gp he found a lump, she is 37. The doc wanted her to get it removed, but rather then have the breast removed she wanted an alternative. Over a years treatment by an indian homeopathist she no longer has a lump. I think that if it works then yes people should be made aware of an alternative to a masectomy.

Placebo effect yes i do understand all about it but do not beleive that Homeopathy is like it at all.

Myksyk · 15-12-2003 4:21pm

1. I'm delighted for your friend but your story is anecdote. This means the story tells us nothing of the reasons behind the lump disappearing.

2. In what way is homeopathy not like placebo? On the contrary, I can't think of a single aspect of it that is not completely like placebo!!

Calibos · 16-12-2003 1:20am

Over a years treatment by an indian homeopathist she no longer has a lump.

Lucky for her it wasn't breast cancer then. Cause if it had of been she would most probably have been dead after that year.

"Like ya know guys, I so don't trust doctors, ya know. My Reiki practitioneer friend balanced my life energies and...said I should go to my Indian Homeopath whose from an ancient healing family from Bangelore btw and like he cured my cancer in a year like"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Myksyk · 16-12-2003 2:27pm

Hipchick, in saying that homeopathy is not like the placebo at all are you also saying that the placebo effect is not at work at all in homeopathy. If so this is extraordinary. It is certainly at work, the question for homeopathy is whether it is the only thing at work or is homeopathy having an additional effect. The research says placebo is the only thing at work.

hipchick · 16-12-2003 3:01pm

"Lucky for her it wasn't breast cancer then. Cause if it had of been she would most probably have been dead after that year."

Lucky for her she had an open mind and received treatment for "breast cancer", as so many people cut themselves off from treatment as they just think its all hocus pocus.

I think the placebo effect is in our every day life regardless of taking any remedies or not, Homeopathy treats deep inside this is why it works it goes to the root cause of a problem. It certainly does work without the placebo effect but it can help if you do believe.

"The research says placebo is the only thing at work." can you give me the link for this i'd like to have a look.

Silent Bob · 16-12-2003 3:09pm

Originally posted by hipchick
Homeopathy treats deep inside this is why it works it goes to the root cause of a problem. It certainly does work without the placebo effect but it can help if you do believe.

Does drinking distilled water work, or does it have to be "homeopathically prepared"?

Myksyk · 16-12-2003 5:40pm

Homeopathy treats deep inside this is why it works it goes to the root cause of a problem

What does this mean? Deep inside where? How do you know? What do you mean the root cause of the problem? How does Homeopathy treat the root cause of the problem? Do you think if you say that it does, then it does?

Re link to evidence: I suggest you subscribe to the journal 'The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine'. Scott Lillienfeld is the standing Editor.

smiles · 16-12-2003 10:03pm

Take it to Irish Sceptics lads.

PI is NOT a medical forum.

<< Fio >>

hipchick · 17-12-2003 2:45pm

What does this mean? Deep inside where? How do you know? What do you mean the root cause of the problem? How does Homeopathy treat the root cause of the problem? Do you think if you say that it does, then it does?

This means deep inside the body! the reason i feel strongly about this is i have used homeopathy for a while now on a lot of acute illnesses and it has worked for me and anyone i have treated, (oh but maybe it was all to do with the placebo effect). I don't think so, a lot of the people i treated, didn't know much about it and did not have preconcieved ideas about it, with placebo you beleive that what you are given will work as thats what you've been told.

Homeopathy is a kickstart for your own bodys natural healing ability, so you may present with asthma but from taking homoepathy remedy you will more than likely get exema as this is usually the starting point for all asthmatics i know it was with my son. So the root problem was the exema(skin), the way it was treated to begin with by creams and steriods, they surpressed it deeper in the body and reappeared as asthma(lungs).

to finish i don't think every thing can be explained scientifically.

Barnowl · 17-12-2003 3:23pm

If you have a cold, treat it (with anything that takes your fancy) and it will last a week. Let it run it's course without treatment and it will last seven days.

Taking credit for a curing a condition which naturally runs this kind of course is just not on - for any treatment modality.

ecksor · 17-12-2003 11:11pm

Originally posted by hipchick
to finish i don't think every thing can be explained scientifically.

That's true!

But, in the case here where you cite a lot of anecdotal evidence, it should be possible to produce a study that shows some sort of correlation between use of homeopathic remedies and a beneficial effect upon various health issues, even if no explanation accompanies it.

On a more mundane note, smiles mentioned that PI is not a medical board. There are no forums on boards.ie where dispensing medical advice is appropriate. If you have a medical problem, see your doctor.

PaulP · 18-12-2003 10:23am

There is a long-known medical phenomenon called spontaneous remission, whereby even the most serious or even fatal conditions simply disappear without treatment.

Also: even the Romans knew it was wrong to believe that just because event A preceded even B that therefore A must be the cause of B. It's known as the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.

So just because someone with cancer visits an Indian quack and later finds the cancer gone, it does not mean the quack had an effect.

Myksyk · 20-12-2003 12:50pm

Unfortunately it seems that believers in homeopathy and its ilk are entirely impervious to such arguments and seem to have the capacity to ignore these factors with impunity. They say they acknowledge placebo, remission, normal course of illness, etc etc but in fact they simply don't. I have yet to hear an AM proponent say 'my friend had such and such...took homeopathic remedy x ... got better ... but there are so many factors that could explain it that I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that it was the Homeopathic remedy'. Why? Because invariably they do jump with comsummate ease to that very conclusion.

Myksyk · 23-12-2003 11:50am

By the way, I see that homeopathy's old friend, Mr. Bienveniste, now believes that he can somehow harnass the energies associated with water's astounding 'memory-making ability'. He says he can download this energy and send it to people over the internet.

Seriously.

Sleipnir · 23-12-2003 11:58am

homeopathy is also a COMPLETE ripoff.
The stuff is unbelieveably expensive.

Myksyk · 23-12-2003 12:09pm

Ripoff is just too kind. I made the following two points earlier in this thread.

2. Homeopathic preparations are produced by diluting substances in water to a level where none of the substance is left (that's right...NONE...just plain old water remains). The over the counter homeopathic remedies sold in your local health food store or chemist are generally in the form of pills. These pills are lactose (sugar) tablets on which a single drop of this plain water has been placed. Homeopathic preparations contain no active ingredients. There is no medicine in this 'medicine'. You are buying sugar and water only. On the side of each bottle a particular herbal extract or mineral is listed, along with the dilution; but not one molecule of these herbs or minerals is actually in the tablets.

9. A typical bottle of these sugar tablets costs between €6 and €8. Taken at this rate a 1Kg bag of sugar would cost you approximately €1,400. That's mighty fancy sugar.

This is a conservative estimate by the way...so yeah, homeopathy is about selling the most expensive sugar in the world.

hipchick · 23-12-2003 1:43pm

Just want to wish every one a very happy xmas, skeptic or not!!! Hope you all have a good one!

davros · 23-12-2003 2:04pm

Originally posted by hipchick
Just want to wish every one a very happy xmas, skeptic or not!!! Hope you all have a good one!

And a very happy Christmas to you too! I look forward to hearing lots from you on the Skeptics board in 2004

sextusempiricus · 02-01-2004 9:55pm

Originally posted by Myksyk
2.
Homeopathic preparations are produced by diluting substances in water to a level where none of the substance is left (that's right...NONE...just plain old water remains). The over the counter homeopathic remedies sold in your local health food store or chemist are generally in the form of pills. These pills are lactose (sugar) tablets on which a single drop of this plain water has been placed. Homeopathic preparations contain no active ingredients. There is no medicine in this 'medicine'. You are buying sugar and water only. On the side of each bottle a particular herbal extract or mineral is listed, along with the dilution; but not one molecule of these herbs or minerals is actually in the tablets.

9. A typical bottle of these sugar tablets costs between €6 and €8. Taken at this rate a 1Kg bag of sugar would cost you approximately €1,400. That's mighty fancy sugar.

This is a conservative estimate by the way...so yeah, homeopathy is about selling the most expensive sugar in the world.

I hope these preparations are appropriately labelled with the sugar content and a caution to any diabetic.

Myksyk · 09-01-2004 12:48pm

So here are our choices:

1. Homeopathy is a placebo (nothing wrong with that ... very good things placebos)

or

2. Water molecules can hold a memory (no-one knows how ... normally a complex biological system is required for this) of (some and not other) substances it has been in contact with through unknown and unseen processes and can transfer this 'memory' through unknown and unseen channels which activate unspecified 'healing powers' in our bodies resulting in effects which are indistinguishable from placebo.

Hmmm ... now where IS that razor old Occam gave to me??!!!!

williamgrogan · 31-01-2004 11:48am

In the South of France, where I’ve lived for a number of years, there is a monthly English language magazine called the Riviera Reporter (see http://www.riviera-reporter.com/). Every ex-pat from Monaco, Nice, Antibes, Grasse, St Tropez to Toulon reads it. About a year ago they carried an article about the benefits of Homeopathy and I sent in a letter knocking it. A French manufacturer of “water with memory” replied to my letter & I replied back etc.

They now want to do another article and have contacted me.

There is a very high proportion of older ex-pats and many retired English speaking people in the region covered by the magazine. Many suffer from illnesses or think they do and are prime targets for con men. Homeopathy is a big business in this region. As has been said before the French are big spenders on CAM. (Another funny thing in France is the proliferation of Tarot card readers.)

The editor is Patrick Middleton who as far as I know was born in Ireland. Below is an email I got, Saturday the 31st, from another RR journalist.

I am going to suggest that the Irish Skeptics Society write an article and then reply to any criticisms. In other words I am going to suggest a mock battle between the sellers of water as medicine and ourselves.

Could be fun? Interested?

PS

Antibes, near Nice on the Riviera is twinned with Kinsale in Cork.

Email from the RR – 31-01-04

Hello,

…

Most of the people we spoke to (including some British doctors) are
more or less "pro" homeopathy and Patrick would quite like to speak
to someone who is resolutely anti.

M

williamgrogan · 19-02-2004 12:54am

This explanation of Homeopathy is very good. I find it hard to believe that anyone would shell out €10 for a bottle of water after reading it, except maybe in the Cafe de Paris in Monaco.

http://www.homeowatch.org/

williamgrogan · 02-03-2004 4:24pm

Here’s a little item I’m looking into

Which Magazine published this statement …………

GP Attitudes to Homeopathy
Over 80 per cent of GPs may be in favour of a local NHS-based homeopathic clinic, according to research from the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital. Published in Homeopathy, the study explored GPs' attitudes to homeopathy in Dumfries and Galloway in Scotland, an area that has a specialist homeopathic clinic funded by the British Homeopathic Association.
A questionnaire was sent to all 135 GPs in the area. Three-quarters replied, of whom 87 (86 per cent) were in favour of a local clinic. What had most influenced their views of homeopathy was data from randomised controlled trials and audit data on patient outcomes, safety and patient satisfaction.

I emailed Which and asked for details………

Hello Bill,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding our report on Homeopathy - I have contacted our research team who advise as follows:
The report is in Homeopathy 2003, volume 92, page 190-194 - this is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy - some details on the faculty:
"The Faculty of Homeopathy promotes the academic and scientific development of homeopathy and ensures the highest standards in the education, training and practice of homeopathy by dental surgeons, doctors, nurses, midwives, pharmacists, podiatrists, veterinary surgeons and other statutorily registered healthcare professionals. " Their website is at www.trusthomeopaty.org/faculty/fac_over.html.
You can contact the researchers for further details - contacts are as follows:
E. Hamilton, Homeopathic Nurse Practitioner, Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital,
1053 Great Western Road, Glasgow, G12 0XQ, UK.
elainechamilton@aol.com
I hope that this is of help and interest to you and of course if I can help further please don't hesitate to contact me again.
Regards,
Julia Mackie
Customer Services
You can find more of our information online by visiting us at www.which.co.uk

I have now emailed the Homeopathy Faculty (a laugh isn’t it) to see will they send me details of their “study”. I am seriously suspicious about the wording of the study. It should be a doddle to send another letter to the same 135 and see what they actually think of Homeopathy.

Myself and everyone else pays Which to protect us from con artists and they endorse Homeopathy.

williamgrogan · 05-03-2004 1:12pm

Call me sceptical, but I am seriously amused as to where this will end up.

reply from the Homeopathy Hospital, Glasgow

Dear Bill,

You can access document from Elsevier or ADHom depts
British Homeopathic Library Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital.

Thanks for interest shown in above study.

Can you give me more information about yourself and reason for
interest in this topic.

Regards

Elaine Hamilton

My reply

Hi Elaine

I came across a mention of this study in Which magazine. The study indicates a high level of support for Homeopathy among the doctors surveyed.

How can I access the documents? Are they online? Can you email a copy?

Thanks.

Bill Grogan

Does anyone see the last question Elaine asked as indicating concern as to what I might want to do with their study? Either 86% of Glasgow doctors are complete morons or ...........

Myksyk · 10-03-2004 12:26pm

Keep going Bill ... I'm intrigued as to what she'll do.

williamgrogan · 10-03-2004 1:06pm

She originally replied straight away but now nothing for 5 days. I've sent a reminder. If she ignores my email I intend contacting Which and pressing them to get the "study". Which magazine is my actual target.

If I get the name and addresses of the 135 doctors that were in the "study" I intend sending them a letter to see what they think of Homeopathy. I am confindent that it will be negative and I can use this to rebut the original study.

Myksyk · 21-03-2004 2:21pm

Any update on this wg?

williamgrogan · 21-03-2004 3:36pm

No reply to my second email either so I sent this to Which on Sat morning.

Hi Julia

I contacted Elaine Hamilton who agreed that they had this study.

However despite two more emails which have been ignored I still do not have the study or have been told how to get access to it.

As you did publish the results maybe you could get me a copy of the study?

Thanks.

williamgrogan · 23-03-2004 11:03am

I now have a reply from Which.

Hello Bill,

Thank you for your further email of which I was sorry to hear that you were having trouble obtaining a copy of Homeopathic 2003.

Unfortunately we do not have the facility to source copies of other organisations journals for our members however I would suggest you contact the Library Services at the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital who should be able to help you.

British Homeopathic Library
Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital
1053 Great Western Road
Glasgow G12 0XQ

Tel: 0141 211 1617
Fax:0141 211 1610

Email: hom-inform@dial.pipex.com
http://www.hom-inform.org/

Kind Regards,

Julia Mackie
Customer Services

williamgrogan · 23-03-2004 11:39am

I'm getting somewhere. I have asked that they send the article, presumably by snail mail.

Dear Mr Grogan

Thank you for your request for an article photocopy.

The cost for article requests is £3.50 per article for non library members (£1.75 for members). The invoice, payable by cheque, will be sent with the article copies.

Are you happy for me to proceed with your request?

Kerry Jardine
Library and Information Officer

British Homeopathic Library
Academic Departments
Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital
1053 Great Western Road
Glasgow, G12 0XQ
Tel. +44 (0)141 211 1617
Fax. +44 (0)141 211 1610
Email: hom-inform@dial.pipex.com or kjardine@dial.pipex.com
URL: www.hom-inform.org

However

To get it you must agree to this.

I declare that -
(a) I have not previously been supplied with a copy of the same material by you or any other librarian;
(b) I will not use the copy except for research or private study and will not supply a copy of it to any other person;
(c) As far as I know, no-one else with whom I work or study has made or intends to make, at or about the same time as this request, a request for substantially the same material.

Homeopathy?

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