Aronian defects to the US

cdeb · 08-03-2021 12:46pm #1

Interesting one this - the American Chess Federation have "signed" Aronian from Armenia for €50k, and he'll play for them in next year's Olympiad. The main issue is Armenia's government cutting chess funding (and suggesting that, at 38, Aronian isn't worth as much funding as he used to be)

But this does seem to make a bit of a mockery of the Olympiad to be honest, and you wonder will US policy continue to be to sign players? They've previously signed Wesley So (who switched on the basis that he planned to settle in the US) and Caruana (who at least was born in the US and lived there a few years, albeit that he initially represented Italy of course)

Still, it seems to be quite detrimental to smaller nations that a player can switch at the drop of a hat. What's the difference between this and, say, Qatar signing international athletes or footballers, which was also criticised?

RooksPawn · 08-03-2021 1:56pm

I would not have complaints about Caruana; his parents moved him to Europe as a kid to have better chess training and competitive opportunities.
But the US (chiefly thanks to the money from the St. Louis crowd) have also acquired not only Wesley So but Leinier Dominguez from Cuba and Darius Swiercz from Poland.

(Swiercz played for the US in the World Team Championship just before Covid though he's unlikely to make their olympiad team. Maybe he had other reasons for moving.)

Arab nations signing up athletes from Africa is one regrettable analogy. Another is the Aussies, All Blacks and European countries poaching elite rugby players from the Pacific islands.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 08-03-2021 2:08pm

Some comments on it here too: https://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11542

I'm not sure if he'd be playing at next year's Olympiad for them necessarily. FIDE may be required to sign off - and I note the transfer isn't listed here yet nor is it on his profile: https://ratings.fide.com/transfers.phtml

I found myself supporting Armenia when it came to the business end of some Olympiads over the past twenty years; fighting against the bigger nations etc.

cdeb · 08-03-2021 2:27pm

RooksPawn wrote: »

Arab nations signing up athletes from Africa is one regrettable analogy. Another is the Aussies, All Blacks and European countries poaching elite rugby players from the Pacific islands.

Why's it regrettable?

They were signing athletes from lots of countries - there was a Danish middle-distance runner I'm fairly sure, and Bulgarian weightlifters, and some Spaniards on the football team (for whom an Uruguayan is number two on both their caps and goals charts), and their squad for the upcoming handball World Championships has a Bosnian and a Montenegrin - none of whom have any real connection to Qatar other than being invited to play in the relevant domestic leagues (where applicable).

The rugby is another example of the same thing alright.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 12:06pm

cdeb wrote: »

Interesting one this - the American Chess Federation have "signed" Aronian from Armenia for €50k, and he'll play for them in next year's Olympiad. The main issue is Armenia's government cutting chess funding (and suggesting that, at 38, Aronian isn't worth as much funding as he used to be)
Still, it seems to be quite detrimental to smaller nations that a player can switch at the drop of a hat. What's the difference between this and, say, Qatar signing international athletes or footballers, which was also criticised?

It makes a mockery out of international sport especially team sports. The whole idea of international sport is surely to compare the abilities of different nationalities. What is the significance of say the Isle of Man beating England in a chess or football match if the IOM has its teams packed with Russians or Brazilians? Of course it all boils down to money and you can hardly blame the mercenaries for trying to earn a better living but the knockdown effect is that it deprives home grown, home born players of a chance to represent their country that they may otherwise have had. I was lucky enough to play for Ireland in the European Seniors Championship two years ago and I can tell you now that I would have raised Hell if I had been dropped to make way for someone born in Timbucktu who had recently moved here and decided to switch allegiances.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 12:11pm

RooksPawn wrote: »

Arab nations signing up athletes from Africa is one regrettable analogy. Another is the Aussies, All Blacks and European countries poaching elite rugby players from the Pacific islands.

The Irish rugby team is of course truly Irish, good old Bundee Aki, Van Der Flier, Lowe, Stander, Burns, Herring. Roux. At least N.Z and Australia recruit their players from the same continent

dastardly00 · 09-03-2021 12:19pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

The Irish rugby team is of course truly Irish, good old Bundee Aki, Van Der Flier, Lowe, Stander, Burns, Herring. Roux

Wasn't Josh Van Der Flier born and raised in Wicklow?

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 09-03-2021 12:28pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

The Irish rugby team is of course truly Irish, good old Bundee Aki, Van Der Flier, Lowe, Stander, Burns, Herring. Roux

Van Der Flier born in Wicklow to two Irish parents I think.. Surname doesn't imply nationality.

I know you're a football fan so I'll raise you some of the granny rulers there: Tony Cascarino, John Aldridge, Kevin Kilbane, Alan McLoughlin, Andy Townsend, Jason McAteer, Shay Brennan, Phil Babb, Mick McCarthy, Mark Lawrenson, Alan Kelly, Chris Hughton, Michael Robinson, John Sheridan, Keiren Westwood, Jonathan Walters, Matt Holland, Steven Reid, Chris Morris, Tony Galvin.

Chess, Cricket (losing and gaining), and athletics also have a list.

I don't have a massive problem with residency rules within reason (glad rugby has been pushed out to 5 years in rugby), or granny rules necessarily. But players being bought who've no affiliation to that country and recently played for a rival is just wrong.

begbysback · 09-03-2021 12:33pm

Cmon now lads the jack charlton era is sacrosanct.

I wonder what bobby fishers thoughts would have been on the chess situation these days.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 1:29pm

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Van Der Flier born in Wicklow to two Irish parents I think.. Surname doesn't imply nationality.

I know you're a football fan so I'll raise you some of the granny rulers there: Tony Cascarino, John Aldridge, Kevin Kilbane, Alan McLoughlin, Andy Townsend, Jason McAteer, Shay Brennan, Phil Babb, Mick McCarthy, Mark Lawrenson, Alan Kelly, Chris Hughton, Michael Robinson, John Sheridan, Keiren Westwood, Jonathan Walters, Matt Holland, Steven Reid, Chris Morris, Tony Galvin.

Chess, Cricket (losing and gaining), and athletics also have a list.

I don't have a massive problem with residency rules within reason (glad rugby has been pushed out to 5 years in rugby), or granny rules necessarily. But players being bought who've no affiliation to that country and recently played for a rival is just wrong.

Okay so I got one wrong, I just stuck Van Der Flier in there to make sure that you were paying attention. Of course I knew that the Van Der Fliers of Arklow and Newtownmountkennedy go back centuries.
While we are being pedantic I should point out that Cascarino didn't really qualify under the "granny rule" as he in fact invented his Irish granny and no one was too bothered to check it up properly. I think that a person should either have been born in a country or have both parents from a country to be eligible to represent them. I don't agree with either the granny rule or the residency rule.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 1:33pm

begbysback wrote: »

Cmon now lads the jack charlton era is sacrosanct.

I wonder what bobby fishers thoughts would have been on the chess situation these days.

While the success we had under Big Jack was great what about all the homegrown Irish players who were denied a chance to play for their country because of the import of what were really only sporting mercenaries?

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 1:34pm

begbysback wrote: »

Cmon now lads the jack charlton era is sacrosanct.

I wonder what bobby fishers thoughts would have been on the chess situation these days.

He probably would have complained about it being overrun by Jews :pac:

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 09-03-2021 2:10pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Okay so I got one wrong, I just stuck Van Der Flier in there to make sure that you were paying attention. Of course I knew that the Van Der Fliers of Arklow and Newtownmountkennedy go back centuries.
While we are being pedantic I should point out that Cascarino didn't really qualify under the "granny rule" as he in fact invented his Irish granny and no one was too bothered to check it up properly. I think that a person should either have been born in a country or have both parents from a country to be eligible to represent them. I don't agree with either the granny rule or the residency rule.

wasn't it the adopted granny rule for Cas :pac:

either parent imo, born there obviously, and I'm comfortable with people who establish residency while they're kids.

cdeb · 09-03-2021 2:11pm

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

I know you're a football fan so I'll raise you some of the granny rulers there:

I think even the granny rule is reasonable-ish in that the people have at least some connection to their adopted country. Look at Gary Breen wearing an Ireland jersey to school in Jun 1988 for example, or Mick McCarthy belting out Amhrán na bhFiann at the 2002 World Cup. It does get abused of course, but it still has some definable logic to it.

Buying players up is a different kettle of fish though. Did he really need to switch national allegiance to link up with St Louis Chess Club?

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 2:19pm

cdeb wrote: »

I think even the granny rule is reasonable-ish in that the people have at least some connection to their adopted country. Look at Gary Breen wearing an Ireland jersey to school in Jun 1988 for example, or Mick McCarthy belting out Amhrán na bhFiann at the 2002 World Cup. It does get abused of course, but it still has some definable logic to it.

Buying players up is a different kettle of fish though. Did he really need to switch national allegiance to link up with St Louis Chess Club?

I think that the granny rule is stretching it. I had a Scottish grandmother but apart from liking the accent, eating Scottish shortbread and enjoying a rare single malt now and then I have no affinity with the country whatsoever so it would be ridiculous to call myself Scottish or to represent Scotland if I was good enough to do so.The whole point of international sport is to pit the attributes of different nationalities against each other but this ideal has been completely lost for little else than monetary considerations.

mikhail · 09-03-2021 2:36pm

begbysback wrote: »

Cmon now lads the jack charlton era is sacrosanct.

I wonder what bobby fishers thoughts would have been on the chess situation these days.

He'd probably be foaming at the mouth about a Jewish conspiracy or something. Old Bobby was a great player, but his thoughts on anything off the 64 squares were not terribly interesting. I still remember that radio interview he resurfaced to do after 9/11.

Inquitus · 09-03-2021 4:11pm

I like Lev, he tragically lost his wife, has been dumped by the new Georgian Government, but still operates at the very highest level. He deserves to make a few quid from the US, it is dodgy for the international competitions though!

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 09-03-2021 4:58pm

Inquitus wrote: »

new Georgian Government

*Armenian.

Yeah, as someone else said, I think we'd probably feel more comfortable if he just joined the stable in St Louis but not joined the US.

The comparison I can think of here is cricket where we seem to hold our noses/gag/break things/be proud that one of ours is good enough when Irish players go play for England. I simultaneously do all four when Eoin Morgan knocks a century. He couldn't make much of a living in Ireland playing cricket so.. ok.

But if Paulie had donned an English rugby jersey, I'd probably have given up on sport.

cdeb · 09-03-2021 5:10pm

Course the difference with Morgan (and Joyce) in the cricket is (a) Ireland didn't have a test cricket team until 2017 and so there was no option to play for Ireland and (b) Morgan hadn't led his country to victory in the World Cup in the past decade.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 09-03-2021 5:36pm

cdeb wrote: »

Morgan (and Joyce)

And briefly Rankin.

cdeb wrote: »

(a) Ireland didn't have a test cricket team until 2017 and so there was no option to play for Ireland

No test team - true, but option was still there for ODIs and Twenty20.

Anyway, back to chess. I wonder if there is a world number one out there whose had a recent clash with his federation and probably has had an offer from St Louis...

A team of Magnus, Fabi, Lev, Alireza and Wesley would do ok. Naka can stream it.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 5:50pm

Can Northern Irish players play chess for Ireland these days?

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 09-03-2021 5:55pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Can Northern Irish players play chess for Ireland these days?

Its like the rugby system - no Northern Ireland or ROI, just Ireland. So yes.

sodacat11 · 09-03-2021 6:33pm

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Its like the rugby system - no Northern Ireland or ROI, just Ireland. So yes.[/QUOTE
Can they play for England too?

Joedryan · 28-09-2021 12:24am

I suspect the turmoil in Aronian's private life may have contributed to this decision.

Whatever gets him through it is fine by me.

Aronian defects to the US

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