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Nationality/Ethnicity of the Black and Tans?

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Comments

  • #32
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mathepac wrote: »
    If you mean the percentage declared to be non-Catholic, that seems to be 87%

    I was being sarcastic. the faith of the black and tans is completely irrelevant.


  • #33
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    ... the faith of the black and tans is completely irrelevant.
    I dunno, but faith, according this Google article, can play a part in ethnicity, which in turn is part of the thread title. "Ethnicity can, but does not have to, include common ancestry, appearance, cuisine, dressing style, heritage, history, language or dialect, religion, symbols, traditions, or other cultural factor" is for some people part of ethnicity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group - a first for me, quoting Google.


  • #34
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    err, how about the IRA handbook that forbids attacks on fellow celtic countries, or the Irish national anthem that talks about crushing the Saxon Foe?

    from the article (which is the one I recall reading) posted earlier

    http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768
    so instead of 25/25/50, it was actually 20/20/60.

    oh sorry, it was actually only 6% irish, the rest were nasty old prods I suppose?

    The 6% is not based on religion. In fairness who would do that without mentioning it. The reason I mentioned the 6 counties as a disclaimer is that folks from the north coast may not have self identified as Irish so its problematic including them. Anyway the 6% is derived from the figures given on Tom Toomey’s http://www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=505. So this contradicts History Ireland's figures. The only reason I can think of why this is happening is because History Ireland is including Auxiliaries while maybe Toomey’s does not. Toomey later mentions that many English born had Irish like surnames. I really don't know. Experts?

    6% or 19% Irish regardless with a percent that low I think it is inevitable they would be seen as foreign.


  • #35
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Here's a good read...
    The Black and Tans: British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence, By D. M. Leeson.

    Page 68 onwards...

    The book examines the RIC recruits of October 1920 and exmines their backgrounds, their nationality, religion, their employment, and their behaviour during the war.

    Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 89% were English, 8% Scottish, 1% Welsh and 2% Empire etc.

    Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 80% were Protestant, 8% Catholic, 6% Presbyterian, 6% Nonconformist.

    Lots of other interesting stuff too.


  • #36
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Seanchai wrote: »
    Your figure for Clare jumped off the page. Was this a typo on your part, as the earlier mentioned website by Tom Toomey says there was only 6 people born in Clare in the Black and Tans?

    I have a copy of Tom's book. Very good read; very good researcher.

    Not sure where Tom got his figure. Padraig's book lists the names and numbers and presumably comes from the RIC registers.


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  • #37
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Coles wrote: »
    The book examines the RIC recruits of October 1920 and exmines their backgrounds, their nationality, religion, their employment, and their behaviour during the war.

    Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 89% were English, 8% Scottish, 1% Welsh and 2% Empire etc.

    Of the 1157 recruits in October 1920, 80% were Protestant, 8% Catholic, 6% Presbyterian, 6% Nonconformist.

    Lots of other interesting stuff too.

    The author seems to be a bit confused about what a "protestant" is.


  • #38
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The author seems to be a bit confused about what a "protestant" is.
    You didn't read the link, no?


  • #39
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Coles wrote: »
    You didn't read the link, no?

    I see the reference now, it's you that is confused about what a protestant is.

    That link refers only to the recruits enlisted in a solitary month, that is not a representative sample.

    Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence, do you really believe there were no Irishmen in the B&Ts?


  • #40
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I see the reference now, it's you that is confused about what a protestant is.
    Explain yourself (without creating imaginary arguments).
    That link refers only to the recruits enlisted in a solitary month, that is not a representative sample.
    Oh? How is it not representative? 1157 is almost 20% of all 'Black and Tans'. And you are aware that you presented 'representative' figures where there is no explanation as to how they were selected?
    Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence, do you really believe there were no Irishmen in the B&Ts?
    I would argue that given that the vast majority of the recruitment occurred in English cities that the vast majority were English. And that is clearly shown in the figures.

    I'm not sure why you are trying to infer anything about the Black and Tans from the 1918 election?

    47% of the entire Island voted for SF, and a further 27% voted for the Home Rule party. Only 25% of the population of the entire 32 counties voted for Unionist parties. Of course there were some Irish people in the Black and Tans. Some Irish people wanted to maintain the Union. So what?

    350px-Irish_UK_election_1918.png


  • #41
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Coles wrote: »
    Explain yourself (without creating imaginary arguments).

    Oh? How is it not representative? 1157 is almost 20% of all 'Black and Tans'. And you are aware that you presented 'representative' figures where there is no explanation as to how they were selected?


    I would argue that given that the vast majority of the recruitment occurred in English cities that the vast majority were English. And that is clearly shown in the figures.

    Have you read the article I linked to? It clearly states how the sample is taken.

    Your data is flawed, it only shows one month's worth of recruits, if recruiting only took place in London in that month (which is likely) then it stands to reason 80% of the recruits would be English.

    I used the 1918 election results to add strength to the case that your figures were flawed, because they show no Irish recruits, something which is highly unprobable.

    Oh, Presbyterians and non conformists are protestants as well, your terminology was incorrect.


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  • #42
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    ... Oh, Presbyterians and non conformists are protestants as well, your terminology was incorrect.
    They most certainly are not.

    The following, originally English, Christian faiths are not Protestant :- Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians. As well as the break from Rome the Protestants made, they also wanted freedom from State interference in religion and/or had theological and/or doctrinal differences with the English established Church.

    Wolfe Tone made a case for unity in Ireland between "Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" in order to challenge the ruling elite. His terminilogy and the meanings behind the words he used are still absolutely correct.


  • #43
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    mathepac wrote: »
    They most certainly are not.

    The following, originally English, Christian faiths are not Protestant :- Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians. As well as the break from Rome the Protestants made, they also wanted freedom from State interference in religion and/or had theological and/or doctrinal differences with the English established Church.

    Wolfe Tone made a case for unity in Ireland between "Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter" in order to challenge the ruling elite. His terminilogy and the meanings behind the words he used is still absolutely correct.

    Presbyterians are Calvinists. They are protestant. If anything Anglicans are not true protestants. Let's face it though, Protestantism is pretty much any denomination that reject papal supremacy.


  • #44
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    A more relevant divisional representation of the black and tans would be along pro-Union/ nationalist lines.

    The division along home ruler/ separatist/ republican type line does not work as this was a moving ideal as was the anti- home rule/ pro union/ partitionist view.
    Similarily divisions along religious lines cannot be assumed to be an accurate representation of ones political bias (although they can give an indication to a certain extent. Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Roger Casement, Bulmer Hobson, Robert Barton, Erskine Childers, etc, etc


  • #45
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    See this is why I wasn't sure how to phrase the question properly in the first place ;)


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    This book may be of interest

    "Running with Crows: The Life and Death of a Black and Tan"

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Running-Crows-Life-Death-Black/dp/1782991867/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=QYPHVYDI89Z8&coliid=I7K5WG6T5TMN2

    DJ Kelly's latest research-based novel reflects the true, yet hitherto untold, story of the only member of the British crown forces to be executed for murder during the Irish War of Independence.

    The Black and Tan is question was from Dublin btw


  • #47
    Duckworth_Luas
    Registered Users Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Also, considering the majority of voters in 1918 did not support independence
    A red herring as 25 of the 105 seats were uncontested, ie no votes were cast in the election of many prominent Sinn Fein candidates.


  • #48
    zztop
    Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭zztop


    Tom Barry reckoned the Auxs were worse than the B&Ts but
    that some of them were ok including Willian Hill who went on
    to give his name to the betting chain:o


  • #49
    Citycap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 200 ✭✭Citycap


    The majority of lower rank RIC Dublin Metropolitan Police were drawn from Irish Catholics. The higher up the ranks went the greater number of Protestants.


  • #50
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    zztop wrote: »
    some of them were ok including Willian Hill who went on
    to give his name to the betting chain:o

    Perhaps he devoted more time to the taking of bets rather than harrassing the local population.


  • #51
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    There is a poignant story documented by Paddy Hackett in his book "In Bloody Protest - North Tipperary's IRA Roll of Honour 1916 - 1926".

    At about mid-night 25th November, 1920, armed and masked men broke into the house of Messrs McCurtain, Castle St. Nenagh, demanding to know the whereabouts of Denis Carey, a shop assistant employed there. They roused Denis of Loughane, Templederry and Jim Moore, Mountrath from their beds and bundled them downstairs. Jim broke away and slammed the hall-door behind them. Stumbling over the hall-table, shots fired from outside through the letter-box sailed over Jim's head. He heard a fusillade from outside and thought Denis had been murdered.

    As Denis lay mortally wounded in the street one of his abductors, a man living locally, raised his goggles and thrusting his face into Denis's demanded, "Do you know me now Dinny?".

    Denis was taken to the Nenagh Infirmary where other Volunteers and his family pleaded to know the identity of the Tan who had raised his goggles and spoken to him. Denis refused to name the man saying "One death is enough". Denis died without ever naming the man.

    From reports in the Nenagh News, the Tipperary Vindicator and interviews with Jim Moore and others conducted by Paddy Hackett, quoted in his book.


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  • #52
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    There is a poignant story documented by Paddy Hackett in his book "In Bloody Protest - North Tipperary's IRA Roll of Honour 1916 - 1926".

    At about mid-night 25th November, 1920, armed and masked men broke into the house of Messrs McCurtain, Castle St. Nenagh, demanding to know the whereabouts of Denis Carey, a shop assistant employed there. The men, a local constable who acted as guide and two Black & Tans, roused Denis of Loughane, Templederry and Jim Moore, Mountrath from their beds and bundled them downstairs. Jim broke away and slammed the hall-door behind them. Stumbling over the hall-table, shots fired from outside through the letter-box sailed over Jim's head. He heard a fusillade from outside and thought Denis had been murdered.

    As Denis lay mortally wounded in the street one of his abductors, a man living locally, raised his goggles and thrusting his face into Denis's demanded, "Do you know me now Dinny?".

    Denis was taken to the Nenagh Infirmary where other Volunteers and his family pleaded to know the identity of the Tan who had raised his goggles and spoken to him. Denis refused to name the man saying "One death is enough". Denis died of his wounds at about 10:00pm without ever naming the man.

    From reports in the Nenagh News, the Tipperary Vindicator and interviews with Jim Moore and others conducted by Paddy Hackett, quoted in his book.


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