Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub · 20-09-2019 5:15pm #1

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary

J Mysterio · 20-09-2019 5:21pm

Lets see how many Prime Ministers last this incarnation.

looksee · 20-09-2019 5:23pm

100,000 posts? Is it? I wonder if there is anywhere in the UK a moderated, civil, on topic discussion about Brexit on any platform?

Frank Bullitt · 20-09-2019 5:25pm

11 threads!

Should we start a bet on how many we will reach before they actually leave?

VinLieger · 20-09-2019 5:25pm

When this is all over id love to see a breakdown of all the threads stats, most posts, how long each thread lasted etc...

Strazdas · 20-09-2019 5:26pm

looksee wrote: »

100,000 posts? Is it? I wonder if there is anywhere in the UK a moderated, civil, on topic discussion about Brexit on any platform?

Very difficult to find one. It must be the most polarising and divisive issue in British political history. It's almost like a civil war but without the fighting.

Jizique · 20-09-2019 5:27pm

VinLieger wrote: »

When this is all over id love to see a breakdown of all the threads stats, most posts, how long each thread lasted etc...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/20/iain-duncan-smith-eu-leaders-panicking-desperate-no-deal-brexit/

Well, IDS is pretty confident

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-09-2019 5:31pm

Brexiters are still convinced there will be a climbdown from the EU - it is quite unreal

ilovesmybrick · 20-09-2019 5:31pm

VinLieger wrote: »

When this is all over id love to see a breakdown of all the threads stats, most posts, how long each thread lasted etc...

What I find remarkable is that the first thread lasted a year and a half, and there were nine in two and a half years. Considering the potential fallout in the coming six weeks will this iteration even see out the year?

Leroy42 · 20-09-2019 5:35pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Brexiters are still convinced there will be a climbdown from the EU - it is quite unreal

TBF, what else are they supposed to say? There is no point accepting the reality, that would spell the end of Brexit. Far better to continue with the hope, in the hop that something, anything, will turn up.

They are fighting for the ideology, their party and even their own careers. That is quite the incentive to keep up the facade. But look at how many of them voted for TM WA and the 3rd time. They know very well what the reality is.

J Mysterio · 20-09-2019 5:39pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Very difficult to find one. It must be the most polarising and divisive issue in British political history. It's almost like a civil war but without the fighting.

That is basically exactly what it is.
If the UK don't play their cards right, the fighting might come in earnest still, as mad as that would be.

Panrich · 20-09-2019 5:47pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

That is basically exactly what it is.
If the UK don't play their cards right, the fighting might come in earnest still, as mad as that would be.

When you see people with diabetes willing to give up their life-saving medicine just to see Brexit happen, then any outcome is possible if the 'prize' is snatched away from them.

When you also have irresponsible politicians and rabble-rousing headlines in the media to add in to the mix, the ingredients for social unrest are all in place.

looksee · 20-09-2019 5:47pm

Its interesting to read the spin that the UK media is putting on the various events and statements about Brexit. The idea that the EU is in a complete tizzy about the UK leaving. They leave you wanting to say but...but...no!

eire4 · 20-09-2019 5:55pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Brexiters are still convinced there will be a climbdown from the EU - it is quite unreal

I know at this point I should have long since stopped being dumb founded at London's level of delusion when it comes to the EU just caving at the last minute but I just stil cannot quite believe it.
At this point I think though we will end up with a deal done before October 31st and it will be the DUP getting thrown under the bus and the border being made the Irish sea. Now whether that will get enough votes in London I have no idea but I think that is where this is going right now.

20-09-2019 5:58pm

From the previous thread:

And yes it is scary how easy it has been to convince these people that leaving the EU is the number one priority in their lives, when they couldn't have cared less 5 years ago, beyond the occasional conversation down the pub. They have absolutely no comprehension of how brainwashed they sound. There is no other word for it.

It's easy to forget that 5 years ago, there was no hope of ever leaving the EU in the minds of many, that's why they didn't think about it.
Now they've been given hope, a referendum and a favorable result that shows a majority (of voters) want to leave, now they want it to happen.

That is not "brainwashing", it's a suppressed aspiration that now has a real possibility of happening. So it's foremost in their minds and they want it done.

alchemist33 · 20-09-2019 6:01pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Very difficult to find one. It must be the most polarising and divisive issue in British political history. It's almost like a civil war but without the fighting.

There's a r/brexit on reddit which is fairly civil, although most there are against it.

I'm a member of a UK- based forum for my profession which is normally a spurce of good intelligent debate. But on Brexit it's as bad as some forums here; just full of anger and stupidity. It's actually impossible to have a conversation there as nobody responds to the post they quoted, but instead roll out a barrel of whataboutery and soundbites.

alchemist33 · 20-09-2019 6:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From the previous thread:

It's easy to forget that 5 years ago, there was no hope of ever leaving the EU in the minds of many, that's why they didn't think about it.
Now they've been given hope, a referendum and a favorable result that shows a majority (of voters) want to leave, now they want it to happen.

That is not "brainwashing", it's a suppressed aspiration that now has a real possibility of happening. So it's foremost in their minds and they want it done.

But I think it would be fair to say a major reason for that suppressed aspiration has been dacades of "the EU are banning bendy bananas" stories from the right wing press. At some level, all those negative stories have built the notion that the EU has been having a massive negative effect on peoples lives.

20-09-2019 6:12pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

But I think it would be fair to say a major reason for that suppressed aspiration has been dacades of "the EU are banning bendy bananas" stories from the right wing press. At some level, all those negative stories have built the notion that the EU has been having a massive negative effect on peoples lives.

Most people were in favour of the EEC as it was basically a free trade alliance, but disliked external interference in many areas of social and political activity. The referendum in 1976 voted to remain in the EEC.

The EEC morphing into a much closer federal union which prevented individual deals with other countries really pissed off some of the elite in the UK.

So it's easy to see where the money is coming from.

Tell me how · 20-09-2019 6:14pm

Somebody posted a link to Simon Coveney on the Today radio programme on BBC earlier today (thank you to the poster).

As always, he was informed, consistent and forthright. Really excellent work by him. By the end of the piece, the host was saying just how far statements about progress are from the reality of what actually needs to happen. Simon will walk in to an EU or UN job after this should he wish to go either route.

In 8 months time, when people are talking about FG being a joke and sure look at the childrens hospital and the homeless issue and swinggate etc, I hope they also recognize the individual qualities some people have. I hate it when people just look at the party (FF, FG, SF, Lab, whoever) and discount everyone within because of a perceived ethos which the party have. I've always respected Micheal Martin similarly (introduced smoking ban which was revolutionary at the time).

serfboard · 20-09-2019 6:17pm

Panrich wrote: »

When you see people with diabetes willing to give up their life-saving medicine just to see Brexit happen, then any outcome is possible if the 'prize' is snatched away from them.

When you also have irresponsible politicians and rabble-rousing headlines in the media to add in to the mix, the ingredients for social unrest are all in place.

In the past greedy oligarchs could get countries to wage war against other countries to expand their own empires.

This is not possible now, so one way of increasing your wealth is to pay less tax and if it takes a civil war to do it, then so be it.

The people responsible, such as the billionaire tax-exile Barclay Brothers, will be safe from any fallout in their mansions overseas.

serfboard · 20-09-2019 6:24pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Somebody posted a link to Simon Coveney on the Today radio programme on BBC earlier today (thank you to the poster).

As always, he was informed, consistent and forthright. Really excellent work by him. By the end of the piece, the host was saying just how far statements about progress are from the reality of what actually needs to happen. Simon will walk in to an EU or UN job after this should he wish to go either route.

In 8 months time, when people are talking about FG being a joke and sure look at the childrens hospital and the homeless issue and swinggate etc, I hope they also recognize the individual qualities some people have. I hate it when people just look at the party (FF, FG, SF, Lab, whoever) and discount everyone within because of a perceived ethos which the party have. I've always respected Micheal Martin similarly (introduced smoking ban which was revolutionary at the time).

I heard Lynn Ruane speak at an event earlier this year, and she spoke very highly of Simon Coveney, and she would have no vested interest in doing so. Remember that Simon was also the choice of the majority of FG members.

Quin_Dub · 20-09-2019 6:24pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

What I find remarkable is that the first thread lasted a year and a half, and there were nine in two and a half years. Considering the potential fallout in the coming six weeks will this iteration even see out the year?

Given that the 10th edition took a grand total of 35 days to hit the 10k limit (The 1st post was on the 16th of August), I think the challenge will be to see if this one manages to last the rest of September!!!

cml387 · 20-09-2019 6:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From the previous thread:

It's easy to forget that 5 years ago, there was no hope of ever leaving the EU in the minds of many, that's why they didn't think about it.
Now they've been given hope, a referendum and a favorable result that shows a majority (of voters) want to leave, now they want it to happen.

That is not "brainwashing", it's a suppressed aspiration that now has a real possibility of happening. So it's foremost in their minds and they want it done.

I disagree to an extent. Membership of the EU was never a major bone of contention in the British population as a whole before 2016. Many other things including the NHS,crime, the economy and lets face it-emigration were the big issues.
Sure they probably grumbled about the EU, like the weather.
Only when the referendum was called did it become an issue and then the referendum partly became a vote on the government and austerity.

We've had the same thing here where referendums issues got lost because the government was unpopular.

The best equivalent here of having a referendum you didn't need was the abortion vote in 1983, and didn't that go well.

Tippex · 20-09-2019 6:33pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Given that the 10th edition took a grand total of 35 days to hit the 10k limit (The 1st post was on the 16th of August), I think the challenge will be to see if this one manages to last the rest of September!!!

the only reason the last thread ramped up so quickly was the shenanigans going on in the HOC there is no way this thread will be done by the end of September.

cml387 · 20-09-2019 6:44pm

Incidentally, those of you who dismiss Katya Adler should hear her pour a lot of cold water over the "imminent breakthrough" nonsense that arose partly out of Jean Claude Junkers interview with Sky.
She pointed out that all he said was in essence just a restatement of long held EU principles.
This was on Today this morning.

Tell me how · 20-09-2019 6:48pm

cml387 wrote: »

Incidentally, those of you who dismiss Katya Adler should hear her pour a lot of cold water over the "imminent breakthrough" nonsense that arose partly out of Jean Claude Junkers interview with Sky.
She pointed out that all he said was in essence just a restatement of long held EU principles.
This was on Today this morning.

It's very interesting to hear that as I found on yesterdays edition of Brexitcast that she was much less gung ho than she normally has been about EU caving to UK desires. I noticed it a couple of times during the show.

Tell me how · 20-09-2019 6:50pm

Tippex wrote: »

the only reason the last thread ramped up so quickly was the shenanigans going on in the HOC there is no way this thread will be done by the end of September.

I think the poster was being facetious.
This thread could well see the end of October depending on how things progress and whether or not there is any drama associated with the next moves.

Russman · 20-09-2019 6:52pm

This may be a trite comment given we’ve had 10 threads about it, but when you take a step back and look at it, the very idea of a member of an organisation deciding to leave and complaining that the terms of its leaving are not good enough and demanding better terms, is just off the wall bonkers.

Tell me how · 20-09-2019 6:59pm

Russman wrote: »

This may be a trite comment given we’ve had 10 threads about it, but when you take a step back and look at it, the very idea of a member of an organisation deciding to leave and complaining that the terms of its leaving are not good enough and demanding better terms, is just off the wall bonkers.

The manner in which the EU was complained about for being undemocratic and then parliament in the UK being prorogued to avoid debate is definitely something which if you had been told at the outset that it was going to happen I don't think anyone would have believed it.

Or (possibly) 2 general elections being held between the time A50 was invoked and they actually leave, 3 being held on the negotiated WA, votes of No confidence from within both the party and the HoC on the PM being held while all the time, any suggestion that there be a second referendum being shouted down as unacceptable would have been equally unbelievable at the outset.

sdanseo · 20-09-2019 7:05pm

looksee wrote: »

100,000 posts? Is it? I wonder if there is anywhere in the UK a moderated, civil, on topic discussion about Brexit on any platform?

There is meant to be one, but Boris prorogued it. Leaving aside the fact that's it's been more of a circus for the last year or so than a discussion.

Mech1 · 20-09-2019 7:11pm

Just found this in After hours.
https://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/1175049001126768647

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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