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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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  • Options
    #5072
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    S.O wrote: »
    I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

    Women weren't being beaten in the street when they were fighting for the right to vote, does that mean we should demean them and their struggle?

    Not that it matters, you don't seem to have a point to make beyond being vaguely contrary.


  • Options
    #5073
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    S.O wrote: »
    Don,t you just how yes campaigners are so confident in their arguments that need to resort to tearing down no campaign posters, spotted this from twitter .

    https://twitter.com/i_am_ammo/status/590268610741952512

    Does anyone know if its an offence to vandalise or tear down posters during a referendum campaign ?

    How do you feel about the pro-equality murals being defaced?


  • Options
    #5074
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    StewartGriffin wrote: »
    I was referring to several posts implying that this campaign is on a level with the Suffragettes
    S.O wrote: »
    I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    That comparison is often made. But it is rarely a comparison of the two movements. Rather it is a comparison of the arguments used against both movements - which are almost identical.

    For example back when Loving was taken to trial for marrying a member of another "race" - people were saying they should have the same rights as anyone else to marry.

    The reply at the time was "They have the same rights as everyone else already - they have the right to marry someone of their own race!".

    Now compare that to a response we have seen a few times on this thread. When someone says that gays should have the same right to marry as everyone else - we hear people say "They have the same rights as everyone else already - they have the right to marry someone of the opposive sex!"

    Then there is arguments about redefining marriage itself to accommodate the change. There are parallels there too.

    So there is SOME level of comparison to be made without pause or embarrassment when we see such arguments presented. Clearly those arguments failed utterly then. It is worth pointing out there is no reason for them to do anything but fail utterly now.

    Anyway - nothing important - just a small highlight that there are two groups. Those that actually directly compare the two movements - and those that are making the comparison only to highlight the arguments used during the two movements.

    The latter in my opinion is entirely sound. The former - well I would not do it myself so I will leave arguing whether it is sound or not to others.


  • Options
    #5075
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    S.O wrote: »


    Does anyone know if its an offence to vandalise or tear down posters during a referendum campaign ?
    No. Interestingly enough though, it's often an offence to put them up. Wish that particular by-law was enforced more often...


  • Options
    #5076
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,123 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    endacl wrote: »
    No. Interestingly enough though, it's often an offence to put them up. Wish that particular by-law was enforced more often...


    It is not an offence to put up posters for either side in the referendum. It is an offence to not take them down within 7 days of the referendum.


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  • Options
    #5077
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Ricardo Jealous Mimicry wrote: »
    How do you feel about the pro-equality murals being defaced?

    I equally condemn it.


  • Options
    #5078
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,183 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    S.O wrote: »
    I checked a few of the yes to equality campaign pages on social media earlier, I can,t find any of them condemn the removal of posters so far,

    Colm o Gorman.


  • Options
    #5079
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭Daith


    S.O wrote: »
    I equally condemn it.

    Do you equally condemn the No side making up stats from the US Dept of Health?

    Do you equally condemn the fact they are bringing surrogacy into a debate depsite knowing it has nothing to do with it?


  • Options
    #5080
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    S.O wrote: »
    I equally condemn it.

    And have you seen the no side equally condemn it?


  • Options
    #5081
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It is not an offence to put up posters for either side in the referendum. It is an offence to not take them down within 7 days of the referendum.

    It depends on what is on the poster, how it is displayed, and where it is displayed. They also must display the names of both printer and publisher.


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  • Options
    #5082
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,123 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    endacl wrote: »
    It depends on what is on the poster, how it is displayed, and where it is displayed. They also must display the names of both printer and publisher.


    sure there are some rules that must be obeyed but of itself putting up a referendum poster is not an offence. Though i'm not sure what you think is covered by "what is on the poster" apart from obscenities


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    #5083
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    S.O wrote: »
    I was replying to another poster, who was equating the struggle for civil rights to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    Am I right in my reading from your post above that you don't think the denial to LGBT people of the same access to Civil Marriage that straight couples have under Irish Constitutional Law, and on the same basis - that of a loving relationship - is NOT a civil rights issue?

    Please don't make reference to the "they can, if they marry some-one of the opposite sex" excuse when that clearly ignores the "love between partners" piece and the fact that one would be entering a false marriage in which the LGBT partner would have to be dishonest from the start, whatever about making a false declaration in a state document, the HSE Marriage Registration Form.

    The state regarded marriages between gay men and straight women as null from the start, according to one friend who entered such a marriage and when he came out, was told during court proceedings that his marriage never existed legally from the start.


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    #5084
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭Daith


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Am I right in my reading from your post above that you don't think the denial to LGBT people of the same access to Civil Marriage that straight couples have under Irish Constitutional Law is NOT a civil rights issue?

    It's also worth remembering that civil rights for gay people has been ongoing for decades.

    Gay people couldn't even hold hands in the street prior to 1993 yet I have people telling me they shouldn't change a document written in the 1930s?


  • Options
    #5085
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Daith wrote: »
    It's also worth remembering that civil rights for gay people has been ongoing for decades.

    Gay people couldn't even hold hands in the street prior to 1993 yet I have people telling me they shouldn't change a document written in the 1930s?

    Lol, not much has changed from what some people think. A poster said that PDA's by people (gay or straight) was not acceptable.


  • Options
    #5086
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I have absolutely no problem with the No side putting up posters. However, I have a massive problem with lies and the No sides attempt to undermine this referendum with lies. I do not believe either side of a referendum should be allowed to publicly display lies in order to gather votes.


  • Options
    #5087
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    S.O wrote: »
    I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

    Perhaps Australians against Gay Marriage should sort out their own internal Civil Rights issues before commenting on what is or isn't like the 1960s.

    Tell me - is the denial of special privileges to a minority because they are a minority a civil rights issue in your opinion?

    Yes or No.


  • Options
    #5088
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    sup_dude wrote: »
    I have absolutely no problem with the No side putting up posters. However, I have a massive problem with lies and the No sides attempt to undermine this referendum with lies. I do not believe either side of a referendum should be allowed to publicly display lies in order to gather votes.

    One may complain about misleading posters - from either side - using this handy on-line form http://refcom.ie/en/contact-us/contact-form/


  • Options
    #5089
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,547 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    One may complain about misleading posters - from either side - using this handy on-line form http://refcom.ie/en/contact-us/contact-form/

    There were leaflets handed out with a link to them a few pages back, does that link deal with them too?


  • Options
    #5090
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    No.


    What's your point?

    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?


  • Options
    #5091
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    It depends on how you look at it really. Discrimination against gay people at this moment in time is less than the situations it is being compared to, but the end goal is absolutely comparable.

    If you think the struggle started when the referendum was announced you'd be gravely mistaken.


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  • Options
    #5092
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    sup_dude wrote: »
    There were leaflets handed out with a link to them a few pages back, does that link deal with them too?

    That's the info that was passed on to me.


  • Options
    #5093
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

    Is it a competition now? Does it really matter what group has it worse? The fact is both groups could have it better and we have a duty to do what we can to make that happen. Vote YES.


  • Options
    #5094
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Daith wrote: »
    Do you equally condemn the No side making up stats from the US Dept of Health?

    Do you equally condemn the fact they are bringing surrogacy into a debate depsite knowing it has nothing to do with it?

    On the issue of surrogacy + AHR, I refer to ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 of the irish constitution.


    The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution
    of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to
    protect it against attack.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/index.html#article41

    If a yes vote passes on May 22nd, what quoted above is open to interpretation to open the door for assisted human reproduction for same sex couples, as it says.

    the Family is founded,

    But ARTICLE 41/ 3 1 is not saying on how a family can or cannot be founded that is why it is open to interpretation.


  • Options
    #5095
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Perhaps Australians against Gay Marriage should sort out their own internal Civil Rights issues before commenting on what is or isn't like the 1960s.

    Tell me - is the denial of special privileges to a minority because they are a minority a civil rights issue in your opinion?

    Yes or No.

    All depends on what privileges you argue about, if its against same sex couples being allowed marry and start a family by adoption or by AHR, then no I don,t see it as a civil rights issue, no more then being against allowing close relatives to marry is not a civil rights issue.


  • Options
    #5096
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Zillah wrote: »
    Women weren't being beaten in the street when they were fighting for the right to vote, does that mean we should demean them and their struggle?

    Not that it matters, you don't seem to have a point to make beyond being vaguely contrary.

    Comparing women fighting for right to vote to the fight for same sex marriage is not the same thing in my view.


  • Options
    #5097
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

    It may have been of a lesser intensity (no place of entertainment bombings - here anyway by hate-filled people) but Irish LGBT people were certainly attacked regularly by other hate-filled Irish people, plus (as Paddy Mannings of the NO Side said about being lured by a Garda for arrest purposes) arrest and harrassment by the Gardai. The Irish LGBT civil rights movement did not begin until an Irish gay man was murdered in Fairview Park by homophobic teenage boys. These types of attack are still happening in our cities and towns here, and it's not just males attacking and baiting LGBT folk here in Ireland.


  • Options
    #5098
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    Is it fair to say that minorities in the American South in the sixties had it better than the slaves in the 18th and 19th centuries? Therefore, should any efforts have been made to improve the situation of the former category?


  • Options
    #5099
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    S.O wrote: »
    I came across this picture on facebook in recent days, it makes a good case against the argument that struggle for civil rights in the 1960s is equal to the struggle for same sex marriage rights.

    https://www.facebook.com/254097721362053/photos/pb.254097721362053.-2207520000.1429625799./554440971327725/?type=3&theatre

    Funnily enough, a number of the leaders of the civil rights struggle in the US, including the likes of Bayard Rustin (openly gay organiser of the million man March), Caretta Scott King, Jesse Jackson have expressed the view that the campaign for marriage equality osnt comparable to the civil rights movement - it's a continuation of the same struggle.

    A struggle for equality means a struggle for equality for all. There aren't degrees of unequal.

    While some forms of oppression or discrimination may be more egregious than others, they all offend the principle that every citizen should be seen as equal.


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    #5100
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?
    Same sex marriage will allow same sex couples to get married.

    No need to get yourself bogged down in the perceived plight of homosexuals in Ireland today or of black people living in the US 50 years ago. Vote YES if you believe in equal rights, irrespective of whether they're for gays, blacks or your simply your friend who wants to marry their friend. Vote NO if you don't believe in equality.


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    #5101
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Is it fair to say that the homosexual community in Ireland in 2015 do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during yhe Civil Rights movement?

    Is it fair to say that African Americans now do not suffer the same level of inequality and injustice as black people in Selma during the Civil Rights movement?

    The people of Montgomery might have mixed views about that...

    Who had it worse - the people of Selma or the people of Soweto?
    Was it worse for unmarried mothers or women in abusive relationships in Ireland in the 1950?





    The only pertinent question is do ALL citizen enjoy exactly the same rights in Ireland.

    If the answer is no (which it is) as a minority group are denied equal status because they are a minority group (any kind of minority group) then it is discrimination which makes it a civil rights issue - not the who had/has it worse p*ssing contest you are trying to make it.


This discussion has been closed.
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