Long term petrol storage?

Iderown · 17-09-2014 8:17am #1

My preparations are really meagre compared with those of some of you guys. I prepare against power outages resulting from bad weather. I have a small (2kW) petrol driven generator which is adequate to keep batteries charged (for lighting) and to power up the oil-fired central heating and other occasionally needed electrical items.

We don't need petrol for any other purposes - the car uses diesel. I read somewhere that petrol does not store well. Anyone know what happens to it when stored for maybe 2 or 3 years? Short of throwing it away and re-filling, how to prevent problems?

BreadnBuddha · 17-09-2014 8:45am

A fuel stabilizer should be used to keep petrol fresh for about 12 months. In some circumstances it will keep it useable for 24 months but lots of things affect that. Handiest place to get stabilizer is a marine shop or someone supplying and servicing outboard engines.

Your other option which is worth considering is getting an LPG conversion kit for the carb on the gennie. You can buy these for around 150 quid including the regulator, hose and adapter for the carb. Start on petrol to warm up and then switch over to gas. Propane will keep for many, many years in the cylinder and you can keep 5L of stabilized petrol set aside and change it every 12 months to be sure. You can use it in the lawnmower, strimmer or a visitors car and replace it. Won't cost much to do it that way. A converted gennie, a couple of cylinders and a gas burner or cheap BBQ and you're sorted for heating, charging and cooking duties for sure.

Iderown · 17-09-2014 3:05pm

Thanks so much for that, Bread'n'Buddha. The generator was ex-building site - cost much less than £150! Have never had to use it, but herself here would go mental at the possibility of not having the central heating available on a stormy winter's night.
There should be s few marine supplies stores locally - I'm at a seaside town. I'll give the fuel stabilizer a go first. And I'll make an occasional inspection od any petrol that I store.
Again, thank you.

my3cents · 17-09-2014 5:19pm

OP, use fuel stabilizer but DO NOT store the fuel in the fuel tank of the generator. For the longest possible storage you need to keep the fuel in an air tight container, the generator fuel tank isn't air tight.

Ideally run the generator dry and whip off the fuel bowl under the carb and dry it out, that way old fuel won't gum the carburetor up or run the generator every 3-4 months.

You could always be a bit more prepared by having a spare spark plug and suitable plug tool handy.

Amazon.co.uk has fuel stabilizer and if you don't mind spending a bit more you could get Aspen fuel

Aspen alkylate petrol has a lifespan of approximately 10 times that of regular petrol. Aspen has a storage life of 3-5 years compared to 3-5 months of regular petrol.

http://www.aspenfuel.co.uk/clean-facts/questions-and-answers/

BreadnBuddha · 17-09-2014 9:07pm

Never thought of Aspen but that's a great suggestion. I use it in the chainsaws and clearing saws and never have to think about draining them when they're left sit for a few months. Good thinking that man.

Iderown · 18-09-2014 7:30am

Thank you my3cents - yes, I certainly will go looking for Aspen petrol substitute. It's a 4-stroke engine so I will need to find the un-oiled variety - Aspen 4.

Have promised myself to do a bit of checking and maintenance on the gear at the weekend. The spark plug was new a couple of years ago and the generator has never been used seriously since then. It would be horrendous if, when the time comes, I would have to clean goo out of the fuel tank, the pipes and the carburettor.

my3cents · 18-09-2014 9:51am

I get Aspen fuel from the nearest big Horticultural Machinery dealership they have both Aspen 2T and 4s in 1 liter and 5 liter bottles/cans, haven't bought any in a while but iirc 5l was around €12.50. I've found it still works OK in petrol camping stoves after 8 years storage but for engine use I'd mark a best before date on it of say 5 years in advance.

Try looking for information online about long term storage of your 4 stroke petrol engine, you might find something specific to the make or model you have but if that fails there is a lot to be learnt by reading about long term storage of outboard motors which obliviously work in a harsh environment. If you haven't I'd also do an oil change, the problem with old oil is that once it absorbs moisture acids are created which can attack some of the internal engine parts. Another small issue with long term storage is that the oil will completely drain down to the sump leaving very little to lubricate the rings while you are trying to get it to start. The previous use of fogging oil in the cylinder (check up on outboard engine winterisation) helps in this situation. I also use a good spray with white lithium grease over any exposed steel parts, its covers and protects really well.

Stovepipe · 18-09-2014 10:33am

I was just about to say it, but M3c got there first. Proper maintenance of the gene would be required to make it last. If you are not running it regularly, you should put it in protective long-term storage, as M3C says.

H.O.T.A.S. · 22-09-2014 8:50pm

Hey Iderown

If you are looking for a petrol stabiliser try Liqui-Moly fuel stabiliser I was able to order it from a local motor factors supplier 250ml bottle for €15, 25ml does for 5L. I personally store petrol in either 5L or 20L Jerry cans. I'd agree with the guys regarding emptying the fuel tank and lines. Got the stuff for my parents as there ride mower was always failing come spring time due to petrol degradation but use it now for my prepping.

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/web.nsf/id/pa_domb8dgeye.html
Page 10 of the catalogue

Stovepipe · 02-10-2014 1:08pm

Also, when filling from a metal jerrycan, be aware that many of these, over time, shed their inner sealant, which can block fuel lines so always filter fuel. You should try a Mr. Funnel filter. Best one around.

my3cents · 02-10-2014 1:44pm

Mr Funnel - highly recommended but not that well know about this should give people a bit of a better idea http://www.mrfunnel.com/Mr._Funnel/Home.html they really do work.

Available from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mr+funnel

I've never liked metal fuel cans, think its because I've seen far to many rusty ones. Not sure if plastic is better but all my petrol cans are plastic, one I have is nearly 30 years old and still going strong.

Tabnabs · 02-10-2014 2:16pm

Another vote for the plastic tanks and containers. The issue of condensation is also reduced with plastic over metal.

Stovepipe · 02-10-2014 5:32pm

I have two plastic 10 lt jerrycans, made in Germany, called Telcans and they are excellent. They are tough as old boots and the usual screw-on pouring spout fits them. Mine are black but they are probably available in any colour.

Satts · 03-10-2014 12:41pm

Have anybody used Ecopar diesel ?

Has it a similar shelf life to Aspen petrol ?

my3cents · 04-10-2014 12:11pm

Satts wrote: »

Have anybody used Ecopar diesel ?

Has it a similar shelf life to Aspen petrol ?

Don't know for sure, why not email them and ask. I'd guess that because BioDiesel doesn't store well then this diesel might be the same. The fact they don't make claims about its longevity might mean it isn't a feature of this product?

Satts · 04-10-2014 2:14pm

my3cents wrote: »

Don't know for sure, why not email them and ask. I'd guess that because BioDiesel doesn't store well then this diesel might be the same. The fact they don't make claims about its longevity might mean it isn't a feature of this product?

Yes I have emailed them, they answered some of my questions, but not that one yet.

I want to install a backup generator for someone with medical needs.
I'm looking for a fuel with a long shelf life and a generator with a large tank for long run times.

The tanks on the diesels seem to be bigger and have a longer run time.
I know I could probably add a larger tank to a petrol generator and use Aspen petrol, but I don't want to mess with the original tank.

Hopefully I will get some info back on the longevity of Ecopar diesel.

my3cents · 04-10-2014 3:05pm

Satts wrote: »

Yes I have emailed them, they answered some of my questions, but not that one yet.

I want to install a backup generator for someone with medical needs.
I'm looking for a fuel with a long shelf life and a generator with a large tank for long run times.

The tanks on the diesels seem to be bigger and have a longer run time.
I know I could probably add a larger tank to a petrol generator and use Aspen petrol, but I don't want to mess with the original tank.

Hopefully I will get some info back on the longevity of Ecopar diesel.

Have you checked how long pump diesel will work? Plenty of back up diesel generators stand from year to year so you might be OK?

Can you get a generator to run on kerosene/paraffin or how about an LPG powered generator?

my3cents · 04-10-2014 3:15pm

Found some good information here and there are links to some good pdf files on the left hand menu http://www.diesel-fuels.com/fuel-maintenance/diesel-generator-service.php

my3cents · 04-10-2014 5:13pm

I think this sums it up in reference to pump diesel

Storage

If you keep it clean, cool and dry, diesel fuel can be stored 6 months without significant quality degradation. Storing diesel for longer periods of time can be accomplished by using periodic filtrations and adding fuel stabilizers and biocides.

http://www.exxon.com/diesel-fuel

The previous link has information about filtration equipment, fuel stabilizers and biocides.

Satts · 05-10-2014 2:33pm

my3cents wrote: »

Have you checked how long pump diesel will work? Plenty of back up diesel generators stand from year to year so you might be OK?

Can you get a generator to run on kerosene/paraffin or how about an LPG powered generator?

Pump Diesel would probably be ok, depending on brand, although I've been told newer type diesel doesn't last as long as older stuff.
I'm hoping Ecopar would stay stable for longer.

As far as I know there is no lubricant in Kerosene and it cannot be used in a generator.

Yes you can use LPG. Many factory converted petrol engines available.
I have been told works ok if using it frequently and is more economical than petrol. Possibility of it freezing up in winter, before diesel would.
Doubt over longterm reliability if not frequently used.
If I had mains gas it could be a good option, don't fancy lugging those big bottles around.
Power ok when bottle is full, not so good as the bottle is emptying.

my3cents · 05-10-2014 3:22pm

Satts wrote: »

Pump Diesel would probably be ok, depending on brand, although I've been told newer type diesel doesn't last as long as older stuff.
I'm hoping Ecopar would stay stable for longer.

As far as I know there is no lubricant in Kerosene and it cannot be used in a generator.

Yes you can use LPG. Many factory converted petrol engines available.
I have been told works ok if using it frequently and is more economical than petrol. Possibility of it freezing up in winter, before diesel would.
Doubt over longterm reliability if not frequently used.
If I had mains gas it could be a good option, don't fancy lugging those big bottles around.
Power ok when bottle is full, not so good as the bottle is emptying.

I was thinking of the old tractors that used to run on kerosene, you started them on petrol then switched over to kerosene when they warmed up. Look up TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil) if you are interested but I couldn't easily find a modern equivalent.

With LPG you can get a storage tank and have a tanker drive up to fill it up, so no need for humping heavy gas bottles around and they alter the mix for summer an winter so in winter LPG normally contains more propane which doesn't freeze like butane. If you were using bottled gas then you could just use propane which doesn't freeze.

I really don't see the reliability issues with LPG if not used regularly? With the gas turned off and the carb system vented there is nothing left in the engine to goo up and go wrong, more chance of rust maybe?

One of the problems with diesel is the leak off that lubricates the injectors goes back into the fuel tank after going though the injector pump and that creates conditions for the fuel to go off quicker.

One way around the diesel storage issue would be to get a diesel car and your own diesel tank so you were using the diesel up in the car say down to 3/4 of a tank and then refilling it with fresh fuel. You'd be paying more tax on the fuel but it would be fresh. Two small tanks would allow you to use a whole tank up before putting fresh in so you could switch the fresh fuel to the run the generator.

Stovepipe · 05-10-2014 8:08pm

A diesel will run on anything that can be vapourised, so it will run on kerosene. The manufacturer might not want you to do it but there's plenty of info on the web about it. If you do, add some lubricant, on a ratio like a two-stroke.If you search about industrial diesels, they are designed to run on whatever they are fed, be it road diesel, heavy marine diesel, kerosene, waste engine oil, natural gas and even gas from public dumps.If you look at third world examples, where millions of small generators operate, they are often run on vegetable oils and other biodiesels or kerosene or paraffin. M3C's point about fuel rotation is also valid. Satts, if you want to run a diesel gene constantly, you might run foul of local byelaws. You might have to build a soundproofed enclosure for such an engine.

Satts · 05-10-2014 10:30pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

A diesel will run on anything that can be vapourised, so it will run on kerosene. The manufacturer might not want you to do it but there's plenty of info on the web about it. If you do, add some lubricant, on a ratio like a two-stroke.If you search about industrial diesels, they are designed to run on whatever they are fed, be it road diesel, heavy marine diesel, kerosene, waste engine oil, natural gas and even gas from public dumps.If you look at third world examples, where millions of small generators operate, they are often run on vegetable oils and other biodiesels or kerosene or paraffin. M3C's point about fuel rotation is also valid. Satts, if you want to run a diesel gene constantly, you might run foul of local byelaws. You might have to build a soundproofed enclosure for such an engine.

Thanks Stovepipe.
Nobody living near to hear this generator.
If I bought a diesel I would probably buy one in a sound proofed cabinet anyway.
It would only be run for backup when the grid is down.
It would be started up by pressing a switch in the house.

It has to work first go as the person using it has medical needs.
Because of this pump petrol is out, I wouldn't trust it after a few weeks.
Aspen petrol sounds good, hopefully I will find out soon if Ecopar has the same longevity as Aspen and then I will have a large tank of stable fuel.
No diesel cars at this house.

If I was there all the time then I would experiment with other oils to see if they deteriorate over time and cause starting problems, but I won't be there all the time, so the tank has to full and ready to work on the flick of a switch.

my3cents · 05-10-2014 10:52pm

Whats the power requirement of the equipment that needs powering?

If it is powered by a suitable UPS then that would increase the length of time before a generator needs starting and in many cases might cover the entire power outage event. Anything less than 500W and the price isn't too bad (imo) to keep going for a couple of hours and even 1kw loads can be handled.

I'm guessing that because you are talking about a diesel generator the power requirement is quite high?

Satts · 05-10-2014 11:05pm

my3cents wrote: »

I was thinking of the old tractors that used to run on kerosene, you started them on petrol then switched over to kerosene when they warmed up. Look up TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil) if you are interested but I couldn't easily find a modern equivalent.

With LPG you can get a storage tank and have a tanker drive up to fill it up, so no need for humping heavy gas bottles around and they alter the mix for summer an winter so in winter LPG normally contains more propane which doesn't freeze like butane. If you were using bottled gas then you could just use propane which doesn't freeze.

I really don't see the reliability issues with LPG if not used regularly? With the gas turned off and the carb system vented there is nothing left in the engine to goo up and go wrong, more chance of rust maybe?

One of the problems with diesel is the leak off that lubricates the injectors goes back into the fuel tank after going though the injector pump and that creates conditions for the fuel to go off quicker.

One way around the diesel storage issue would be to get a diesel car and your own diesel tank so you were using the diesel up in the car say down to 3/4 of a tank and then refilling it with fresh fuel. You'd be paying more tax on the fuel but it would be fresh. Two small tanks would allow you to use a whole tank up before putting fresh in so you could switch the fresh fuel to the run the generator.

Thanks my3cents.

I love the look of this gas Generator.
http://www.sdmo.com/EN/Products/PPW/Portable-power-generators/RES13EC

I've never had gas before, what is the ground rent for having a bulk gas storage ?

No diesel cars here at the moment.

Satts · 05-10-2014 11:22pm

my3cents wrote: »

Whats the power requirement of the equipment that needs powering?

If it is powered by a suitable UPS then that would increase the length of time before a generator needs starting and in many cases might cover the entire power outage event. Anything less than 500W and the price isn't too bad (imo) to keep going for a couple of hours and even 1kw loads can be handled.

I'm guessing that because you are talking about a diesel generator the power requirement is quite high?

I'm looking at 5kw generators.
Probably diesel because it will have to run overnight if the grid doesn't come back because of the medical equipment.

The person is living in the country.
500w medical equipment running 24/7.
Oil heating controls and at least two pumps running if heating is on.
Well pump.
Separate freezer.
Separate fridge.
Electric gates.
Lights.

Thinking of getting installing a UPS to keep the phone and broadband going.
Can't rely on a UPS for the medical stuff as the duration of a power outage is unknown.

my3cents · 05-10-2014 11:49pm

Satts wrote: »

I'm looking at 5kw generators.
Probably diesel because it will have to run overnight if the grid doesn't come back because of the medical equipment.

The person is living in the country.
500w medical equipment running 24/7.
Oil heating controls and at least two pumps running if heating is on.
Well pump.
Separate freezer.
Separate fridge.
Electric gates.
Lights.

Thinking of getting installing a UPS to keep the phone and broadband going.
Can't rely on a UPS for the medical stuff as the duration of a power outage is unknown.

So another problem is wiring all that so it works with when the generator comes on. Not always as easy as its sounds.

I'd definitely run the the medical equipment on a UPS because you can then keep it running while the generator kicks in and also provide protection to the equipment in case the generator or mains power spikes or you have a brown out (under voltage). If the power lines get hit by lightening for example you might not have any medical equipment left to power. Your generator might go off because someone forgot the power was off and fired up too many appliances - assuming the generator is set to power the whole fuse board.

I don't know about the cost of bulk gas tanks but I do remember there was a fuss a while back when calor doubled their prices and I think the price went up to €200 a year :eek: There is also the option to buy your own.

I think we might be over thinking the diesel fuel storage problem because I can think of several generators that get next to no use and can't have used a full tank of fuel in the last 5 years yet still work OK.

Long term petrol storage?

Comments