Why are Irish-born players playing for England or other nations?

TheDrog · 09-06-2010 2:34pm

my guess is his wages at middlesex are a lot lower than that, probably around 45,000 tops. I would guess that if he gets a central contract it will be lower end 160,000 because he is not particularly senior.

the one figure we do know is that he got $220,000 for his Indian stint

dirtyden · 12-06-2010 1:59pm

Thanks for the replies, 220K for a few weeks work in India is not bad at all. I'm guessing that is something he could not have hoped to achieve while remaining associated with Ireland. He may even pocket an MBE in the queens awards as well for the 20/20 world cup.

worm_tongue · 16-09-2010 5:12pm

Noticed that Ed Joyce not playing for Sussex the last few days, is this due to injury or loss of form?
In addition any news on his rumoured move to return representing Ireland?:rolleyes:

djimi · 16-09-2010 6:03pm

Whats with the rolley eyes?

He missed the current CC match thru illness apparently.

Hes hoping to be allowed to represent Ireland at the world cup in February, even tho he isnt technically eligable for a little while after the world cup.

crackit · 16-09-2010 9:59pm

I'd say the rolly eyes are a person displeasure at Joyce jumping ship to play for England then when he inevitably got dumped by them after less than 20 ODIs running back to Ireland at the first available opportunity.

A quality player who could have helped progress the cause of Irish cricket had he stayed with us and played every game for the 5 years he spent not playing for England.

The only thing that bothers me about his return to Ireland are the interviews I've read recently in which he's still banging on about playing for England.

riffmongous · 16-09-2010 11:38pm

crackit wrote: »

The only thing that bothers me about his return to Ireland are the interviews I've read recently in which he's still banging on about playing for England.

Out of interest how recent is recently? I know he was still talking about England last year but I haven't heard anything since then

djimi · 16-09-2010 11:55pm

No nor have I tbh. The last few times Ive heard him talk its been about wanting to return to play for Ireland.

I'd say the rolly eyes are a person displeasure at Joyce jumping ship to play for England then when he inevitably got dumped by them after less than 20 ODIs running back to Ireland at the first available opportunity.

Would people prefer that he never came back? Are there people out there who, out of spite for a decision he made in an effort to enhance his career beyond the constraints of playing for his home country, would prefer that there be a player of the calibre of Ed Joyce out there, who is eligibe to play for Ireland but didnt play for us?

crackit · 17-09-2010 12:15am

I'm not saying he hasn't said he wants to return to Ireland. In the interview I read (maybe in TWC) within the last 2 months he, and I'll paraphrase here, said something along the lines of he knows he's good enough to play for england and he would still welcome the chance to do so but since its not going to happen he's more than happy to play for Ireland once more.

riffmongous · 17-09-2010 12:15am

I can understand why people would be be spiteful towards Joyce, but I would like to see him come back, prodigal son style.

Unfortunately the whole situation is pretty ridiculous, when one of the main problems people have with Ireland is the amount of foreign born players on our team, while at the same time the two best Irish born batsmen are trying to play for England, and how long before Dockrell and Stirling are picked up?

riffmongous · 17-09-2010 12:17am

crackit wrote: »

he would still welcome the chance to do so but since its not going to happen he's more than happy to play for Ireland once more.

I was hoping he wouldn't say something like that, might be interpreted as being a little ungrateful

crackit · 17-09-2010 12:29am

Yep, thats what I thought when I read it. I just said to myself can you not keep your gob shut. You know they won't pick you so saying stuff like this is only going to serve to rile some people.

We all know he'd rather play for england than Ireland but to mention his ambitions again 5 years down the road and just as he is about to come back into the fold struck me as a stupid.

I welcome him back for the record. I think it will benefit Irelands cause greatly for another 5 (maybe?) years.

MRPRO03 · 17-09-2010 12:29am

riffmongous wrote: »

I can understand why people would be be spiteful towards Joyce, but I would like to see him come back, prodigal son style.

Unfortunately the whole situation is pretty ridiculous, when one of the main problems people have with Ireland is the amount of foreign born players on our team, while at the same time the two best Irish born batsmen are trying to play for England, and how long before Dockrell and Stirling are picked up?

The point about the foreign players playing for Ireland is a different to Joyce and Morgan, Those players had to be Irish citizens or passport holders and some had to wait 5 or so years in order to attain this and also, they did not play for their nations at all, where as Joyce and Morgan played for Ireland in sanctioned matches by the ICC and all they had to do was spend 175+ days in England to qualify.

Those rules are just ridiculous, like you say, other talented players will be picked off. I personally hate the system but hate the players even more, they can go on about the ''playing at the highest level'' and want to test themselves in Test Matches all they want, the simple reason is, they are greedy, the only the reason they did what they did was cause a better pay packet. How can anyone welcome them back into the team at their own will, just annoys me. They rather choose money and than represent you country with pride.

riffmongous · 17-09-2010 12:43am

crackit wrote: »

Yep, thats what I thought when I read it. I just said to myself can you not keep your gob shut. You know they won't pick you so saying stuff like this is only going to serve to rile some people.

Exactly.

MRPRO03: How can anyone welcome them back into the team at their own will, just annoys me. They rather choose money and than represent you country with pride.

I understand this point of view, thats how I always felt about Morgan who made no secret of his desire to play for England. But when we get the situation we have at the moment not accepting them back doesn't accomplish anything at all

MRPRO03 · 17-09-2010 12:51am

riffmongous wrote: »

I understand this point of view, thats how I always felt about Morgan who made no secret of his desire to play for England. But when we get the situation we have at the moment not accepting them back doesn't accomplish anything at all

If a player is not committed to play for you, what makes them committed many years later. They would have an agenda, all about impressing other nations than the fans that follow the team. Wait till Ed Joyce and Hamish Marshall come, they will be not playing for Ireland, but for England 'B' and New Zealand 'B'. The other players that have always played for Ireland would be affected by this no doubt, what about the players that are dropped, they lose confidence cause of this and the whole team would be worse off when these players leave once again.

riffmongous · 17-09-2010 12:55am

MRPRO03 wrote: »

The other players that have always played for Ireland would be affected by this no doubt, what about the players that are dropped, they lose confidence cause of this and the whole team would be worse off when these players leave once again.

Very good point, I would be incredibly insulted if I lost my place to Marshall after years of hard work. And as you said what happens if Joyce hits a few centuries in the World Cup and England flop? Is he just going to get on the first boat back across the Irish Sea?

djimi · 17-09-2010 9:05am

MRPRO03 wrote: »

Those rules are just ridiculous, like you say, other talented players will be picked off. I personally hate the system but hate the players even more, they can go on about the ''playing at the highest level'' and want to test themselves in Test Matches all they want, the simple reason is, they are greedy, the only the reason they did what they did was cause a better pay packet. How can anyone welcome them back into the team at their own will, just annoys me. They rather choose money and than represent you country with pride.

If youre a professional sportman would you sooner have a crack at walking out to the MCG on boxing day morning in front of 100000 fans, or would you sooner spend the majority of your career playing against Canada, Denmark and the UAE in schools and clubs in front of one man and his dog? Because anyone who thinks that any professional cricketer, Irish or otherwise, would choose the former is seriously deluded. Yes they are greedy, greedy for success and to advance themselves as far as they can; thats what makes them professional sportsmen.

The system and the ICC is where blame lies, not with the players. Guys like Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce should not be put in a position where they have to leave their home country in order to ply their trade at the highest level, but thats the position they are in. Do you honestly think for one minute that, given the choice, Morgan and Joyce would not sooner represent Ireland in a test match rather than England? They dont have that choice, and if you are looking for someone to blame and to direct your hate towards, look in the direction of the ICC and the stuffy old guard establishment who are hell bent on never giving players like Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce the chance to represent their home country at the highest level of their sport.

TrueDub · 17-09-2010 9:12am

As per the charter, this topic is to be discussed in this thread only, so I've merged the threads. Please keep all discussion civil and relevant.

crackit · 17-09-2010 1:09pm

djimi wrote: »

If youre a professional sportman would you sooner have a crack at walking out to the MCG on boxing day morning in front of 100000 fans, or would you sooner spend the majority of your career playing against Canada, Denmark and the UAE in schools and clubs in front of one man and his dog? Because anyone who thinks that any professional cricketer, Irish or otherwise, would choose the former is seriously deluded.

If you're asking the question if we were in his position as to which we would prefer I would answer thusly. I would of course prefer to play test matches at the MCG that goes without saying. However, as an Irishman I could not possibly fathom doing it for another country. I take pride in being Irish and couldn't possibly ever dream of playing for england, Australia, Pakistan or Outer Mongolia.

And, while not of the same standard as Morgan and Joyce in my sport, I have played professional football so I can firmly attest that I would never dream of playing for another country. I was never picked after U-16 level for Ireland and was approached by the country of my mothers birth to represent them. I said no. Quite simply because I am Irish and I take pride in that.

Some people are happy to cast national pride or identity aside and put self interest ahead of that if and when the opportunity arises. I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush though regardless of the sport

djimi · 17-09-2010 1:29pm

Its not about national pride tho, and its completely different to football. Irish footballers can play football at the highest level, Irish cricketers cannot. Whatever about Joyce, there is no doubt in my mind that Eoin Morgan is good enough to compete with the very best at test level; we know it and he himself knows it. Why should he hold himself back in his chosen profession when the option is there for him to advance his career and his potential earnings? Would you stay in a job that was only ever going to pay €25000 per year for example if you knew you had an offer of a job that was going to pay €500k a year and get you all the way to the top? Because at the end of the day thats the decision these guys are faced with. Would he prefer to play for Ireland regardless? Im sure he would. But given that it would be at the expense of his chance to play at the very highest level I dont think it is a realistic option.

National pride is admirable, but if it means the difference between stagnating in the intercontinental cup and the occasional ODI and world cup (and even the WC is looking less likely) for his career, or moving countries to realise his true potential and play amongst the best players in the world at the hightest level, then national pride should not even be a factor.

If Morgan and Joyce were footballers and obsconded to play for England Id feel very differently, but its a completely different situation.

kryogen · 18-09-2010 4:10pm

For a cricketer with the ability or potential of guys like Joyce, Morgan etc.. it would be a shame for them if they never at least tried to make it to the very top of the sport. this is surely the goal for all professional sportsmen, you cannot do that as things stand with Irish Cricket, the fault does not lie with the players rather then system and I reject the claim that all the move for is greed

I simply do not accept that that is the only motivation, i know from the little cricket that i play that i would much rather be playing and testing myself against the likes of Australia, India and South Africa then spend my career playing the likes of Canada, and i mean no disrespect to those nations but if you get the chance to play at the highest level of your profession you are doing yourself a disservice if you refuse it

I hate seeing our best and brightest head across the water but thats the system and to have animosity toward the players is foolish imo, if we get the chance to have Joyce play in the green again it can only benefit the country and take the game forward. hopefully we will be a test nation in the future and this problem wont exist but until it does then we have to live with the reality that if you are good enough to play test cricket you have the opportunity across the water

MRPRO03 · 23-09-2010 1:34am

So when these guys were playing u-10s and then for youth teams, their aim was to play Test Cricket for England, I somehow do not agree with that. They never ever thought about representing them, the only reason they had an opportunity to play for them, is due to the fantastic work that Cricket Ireland has done to promote the game in Ireland and as a result, the team has improved. They are not showing the loyalty that Cricket Ireland has given to the game in Ireland and without them, they would be your average job worker.

JustinDee · 14-10-2010 8:39am

Anyone can play for anybody provided they qualify. Thats not a joke. Thats life. I could play for Ireland, England, Australia, Greece or even Israel if I ever need to choose.

If the likes of Eoin Morgan decide to qualify for England then thats their choice and nobody else's business.
This whole country went ballistic when a bunch of English people played soccer for them under another Englishman as manager. In rugby union, Simon Geoghegan caused many a supporter to celebrate when he scored for Ireland.

The Irish cricket team reached its finest hour with Aussies and Jaapies in the side!

The only joke part is that a player can return to play for another country. Otherwise, suck it up.

d'Oracle · 18-10-2010 1:40pm

http://www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content/story/482042.html

Ahem...

djimi · 18-10-2010 1:57pm

Hardly a shocker to be fair. With the exception of Ryan Ten Doeschate Id imagine youd stuggle to interview any associate member player who wouldnt say exactly the same thing.

riffmongous · 18-10-2010 3:58pm

Good to see our captain letting us know what his priorities are.. *sigh* Could he not have at least mentioned that captaining his country was fairly important too while still subtly saying he would like to play tests?

d'Oracle · 18-10-2010 5:23pm

djimi wrote: »

With the exception of Ryan Ten Doeschate

Explain please.

djimi · 18-10-2010 9:57pm

Ten Doeschate said he has no interest in playing for England even tho he is qualified to do so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/counties/essex/8731156.stm

I didnt actually know he was South African; I always thought he was Dutch...

MRPRO03 · 05-11-2010 1:57am

JustinDee wrote: »

Anyone can play for anybody provided they qualify. Thats not a joke. Thats life. I could play for Ireland, England, Australia, Greece or even Israel if I ever need to choose.

If the likes of Eoin Morgan decide to qualify for England then thats their choice and nobody else's business.
This whole country went ballistic when a bunch of English people played soccer for them under another Englishman as manager. In rugby union, Simon Geoghegan caused many a supporter to celebrate when he scored for Ireland.

The Irish cricket team reached its finest hour with Aussies and Jaapies in the side!

The only joke part is that a player can return to play for another country. Otherwise, suck it up.

The most annoying thing for me is that they played for Ireland and then jumped ship, I would accept it more if they did not play with Ireland at Senior level.

djimi · 05-11-2010 2:06pm

If they didnt play for Ireland at senior level they wouldnt have been noticed or selected by England.

celtictiger32 · 24-02-2011 3:17am

can there be more than ten full members in the icc. therefore allowing ireland to compete in test cricket etc. and keep our best players here and still playing at the high level.

(excuse the ignorance only took an interest in cricket over the last few years)

Why are Irish-born players playing for England or other nations?

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