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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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    #122
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You are stating this as fact, but none of the above is true, you do know that right?
    Actually there is some part of it that's true. Namely the 1933 transfer agreement. Fifty odd thousand German Jews left Germany for Palestine because of it. Germany got millions in export profits out of it and it ran right up to the start of the war.

    That's where half truths come in of course. The Nazi's were looking for various ways to "remove" Jews from its territories. State organised intimidation made many leave, the transfer agreement made more leave and yes they were in regular talks with Zionist Jews within British Palestine at the time(this is where the whole "Hitler was really a Zionist" stuff comes from. He actually made little comment on it, leaving it as usual to minions).

    At that point in the 1930's expulsion was the general "solution", just as marking out Jews with stars in public life had been another "solution". Then expelling Jews from the civil service and management positions in companies another. These "solutions" had a long history within Europe, so the Germans invented nothing there. Indeed our own Daniel O'Connell while fighting for Catholic rights within the UK, also fought for Jewish rights within it too. One of which was repealing the law that Jews had to wear distinctive dress in public to mark them out. That was only repealed in Britain in the mid 19th century.

    Where Germany upped the ante was by industrialising the violent pogroms that had been a feature of Europe for a long time, particularly in the East. This was the "Final Solution". And because unlike nigh on every other player in WW2 Germany didn't utilise its women for labour, they needed and had a ready supply of Jews and other "undesirables" for that purpose, not having to pay them a bonus. And when they were no use as labour, they either died from exhaustion, disease or starvation, or were murdered en masse. The gas chambers and other mass murders were only the bloody tip of a very large spear.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #123
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    1641 wrote: »
    Have to disagree with you on this one. I am of the generation you describe and Auschwitz was very much known - more so than Belsen. Perhaps in the immediate post war generation in the West, Belsen was may have been better known by way of word of mouth from war veterans. But Auschwitz became well known through survivor accounts in books. "Five Chimneys" by Olga Lengyel was in wide circulation back them and deeply affected people. That is not to mention the superb (but challenging and disturbing) "If this is a Man" by Primo Levi. As much meditative as descriptive,it is a must read, in my opinion.
    Levi's book is a must read alright. The other one came much later to English speaking audiences. The 90's, so well past the influence of earlier more widespread impacts of the Auschwitz story on westerners. If you look at various mass media; books, TV and film(documentaries and drama) it's the mid 70's onwards where Auschwitz becomes the main player in that horrific drama.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #124
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Actually there is some part of it that's true.

    Yup, most spurious revisionism builds itself on some facts/truths, but the overall picture being presented (in this case) was untrue


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    #125
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Mod

    Lads, get back on track. The topic at hand is antisemitism TODAY.

    Thanks


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    #126
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Levi's book is a must read alright. The other one came much later to English speaking audiences. The 90's, so well past the influence of earlier more widespread impacts of the Auschwitz story on westerners. If you look at various mass media; books, TV and film(documentaries and drama) it's the mid 70's onwards where Auschwitz becomes the main player in that horrific drama.


    Sorry but I read "Five Chimneys" in a well thumbed English language translation in the very early 70's - I have a very strong memory of the impression it made as it was my first Holocaust book. I know the current edition in print dates from 1995, but there must have been a previous one. My original copy was a borrowed one - no idea of publishers, etc.

    Edit: It was originally published in French (ie, the West) in 1946 - but I definitely didn't read the French edition!


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    #127
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Mod

    1641 (and anyone else) - last warning, please return to the topic of the thread.


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    #128
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Pter wrote: »
    Mod

    Lads, get back on track. The topic at hand is antisemitism TODAY.

    Thanks
    Sorry but it is on topic. The antisemitism of "TODAY" has a long history and the war and post war influence is very much a huge influencer on the current upswing. Note the iconography of swastikas defiling the Jewish graveyard in the very first post on this thread highlighting it.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #129
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

    Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

    I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

    I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.


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    #130
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

    Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

    I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

    I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.

    Figures and polls are confirming the rise
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show
    Antisemitism is rising sharply across Europe, experts have said, as France reported a 74% increase in the number of offences against Jews last year and Germany said the number of violent antisemitic attacks had surged by more than 60%.


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    #131
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Sorry but it is on topic. The antisemitism of "TODAY" has a long history and the war and post war influence is very much a huge influencer on the current upswing. Note the iconography of swastikas defiling the Jewish graveyard in the very first post on this thread highlighting it.

    Mod

    Wibbs, i disagree, and you know on thread isnt the place to argue the point with a mod. Come on now show some respect please. Im not going to entertain further discussion not pertaining to the question in the OP. You can take the card if you dont want to adhere to this.


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    #132
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Figures and polls are confirming the rise
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show

    Also the US experienced its worst antisemitic attack in their history last year. Platforms like "Gab" are filled with it.


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    #133
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    1641 wrote: »
    Ten years earlier noone would have believed that those prejudices would have quickly translated into genocide. Their rise again needs to be taken seriously.
    Yep. It's where it's most likely to rise in an effective way is the question. In say 1910 if we were to pin into a map where state sponsored intimidation, expulsion and mass murder were to kick off in 30 years Germany would have not been top of the list. Many places in Eastern Europe alright. Stuff like vandalisation of graves while both worrying and deeply upsetting for those closest to it is not such a concern. It could be just a handful of loonies that appear "louder" than they are. It's when public figures and bodies hint at wider prejudice that's the real concern. Of late I have stumbled across more antisemitism comments online alright, on Youtube and the like. Some overt, most subtle.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #134
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    The reports suggest an upswing in overt acts of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism as an attitude/prejudice/ ideology has always been strong. Maybe even more pervasive in the past but people kept it covert - because the memory then of historical events were too strong.


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    #135
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The rise of populism, polarisation, empowerment of extreme fringes and internet breeding grounds for this type of stuff (e.g. 8chan) are all factors


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    #136
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    1641 wrote: »
    The reports suggest an upswing in overt acts of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism as an attitude/prejudice/ ideology has always been strong. Maybe even more pervasive in the past but people kept it covert - because the memory then of historical events were too strong.
    I'm not so sure the memories of historical events held much sway myself 1641. There was always a sniff of "Hitler didn't do enough" about it from some. The platforms to share and enlarge those kinda thoughts weren't there like we have today. That's a huge part of it. That and the increasing spilt into smaller "forums" and echo chambers on such platforms, often run by a small group of seemingly "informed" ringleaders. Something that has increased quote appreciably in the last decade. The pro/anti sides and factions are more prevalent and more isolated and polarised across many subjects not just this one. We see it in broader politics, issues around sexuality, gender, race, religion etc. The middle is being squeezed out more and more. It's that spilling into the wider world that is a concern and one any number of charismatic ringleaders could utilise and make into a following.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #137
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

    Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

    I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

    I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.

    To be fair, all the reporting metrics show an upswing in the number of crimes.

    I do think there might be some truth in the being reported more. Or at least a greater awareness of it. You find a lot of the right wing elements in eastern europe have always been there. In the west, and specifically West Germany, there was a certain amount of discussion about the war, the crimes and anti semitism. That didn't happen in eastern europe. In east Germany in particular there was a lot of bigoted thought. You can see this in the right wing groups that existed there. If you go looking you can find lots of evidence of hate crimes that occured in east germany that the government covered up. There was even horrific cases of lynchings. Post reunification it continued. there was even a refugee apartment building burned down. And now groups like the AfD are strongest in the east.

    The same can be said about the rest of eastern europe. In Poland and Hungary there's been plenty of antisemetic language. Orban loves conspiracy theories about Jews. In Poland they are trying to rewrite what happened to jews in the war by passing special laws. In a survey of EU countries Poland ranked highest when asked if people had witnessed anti semitism.

    Now I want to make clear, I'm not saying that east germans, hungarians or poles are antisemites. There's plenty of people in those countries who are appalled by it. I'm just saying that I believe there's a higher percentage and I think that's in part because they never had the national conversation about the war. What they were told and what they thought was basically dictated by their authoritarian regimes.


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    #138
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'm not so sure the memories of historical events held much sway myself 1641. There was always a sniff of "Hitler didn't do enough" about it from some. The platforms to share and enlarge those kinda thoughts weren't there like we have today.


    I generally agree with you on that - it was just badly expressed on my part. By "memory of historical events" I meant that they didn't want to return to war, disruption and destruction - not so much regret about what happened to the Jews. Also I think the rise again of "pure people" nationalism has helped unleash anti-semitism.


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    #139
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Grayson wrote: »
    I do think there might be some truth in the being reported more. Or at least a greater awareness of it. You find a lot of the right wing elements in eastern europe have always been there. In the west, and specifically West Germany, there was a certain amount of discussion about the war, the crimes and anti semitism. That didn't happen in eastern europe. In east Germany in particular there was a lot of bigoted thought. You can see this in the right wing groups that existed there. If you go looking you can find lots of evidence of hate crimes that occured in east germany that the government covered up. There was even horrific cases of lynchings. Post reunification it continued. there was even a refugee apartment building burned down. And now groups like the AfD are strongest in the east.
    That's certainly got a lot to do with it G. Though even in West Germany there was always the background feeling among some of subsequent generations having to wear the sackcloth and ashes sins of their fathers. Harry Enfield's Jurgen the German was at times very well observed for laughs take on that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doPR-6X9h7c

    :D Can't see that being shown on the Beeb these days. Not out of any "PC" restrictions, more about when things are going OK and things like antisemitism are low down on the current problem list you can joke about stuff like that.

    Plus central and eastern Europe had a long history of anti Jewish feelings. In some places pogroms were a national sport. To the degree that early on in the war(or just before it) the German nazis were wary of how much international opinions on goings on in those areas might affect them. The levels of quite open antisemitism in Austria in particular actually shocked them after they marched in.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #140
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,949 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Israel is constantly breaking international law and stealing land.

    The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.

    There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.


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    #141
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Figures and polls are confirming the rise
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show

    In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.

    Here's a counter argument: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2019/04/07/finley-americas-hate-crime-surge-hoax/3374192002/[/url]

    In a nutshell, the way these crimes are being reported has changed.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you, and I won't be replying to any further responses. We're probably both right - the truth is in the middle somewhere.


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    #142
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    the truth is in the middle somewhere.
    as usual.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #143
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.

    Here's a counter argument: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2019/04/07/finley-americas-hate-crime-surge-hoax/3374192002/[/url]

    In a nutshell, the way these crimes are being reported has changed.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you, and I won't be replying to any further responses. We're probably both right - the truth is in the middle somewhere.

    The guardian are just reporting the figures though. It's not like they're making stuff up.


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    #144
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.


    Would the National Catholic Reporter be more creditable than the Guardian?


    https://www.ncronline.org/news/world/anti-semitism-rise-france


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    #145
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,251 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.


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    #146
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Danzy wrote: »
    The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

    Citation?


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    #147
    PinotNero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭PinotNero


    Danzy wrote: »
    The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

    You have evidence to support this?


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    #148
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Danzy wrote: »
    The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

    Mod

    Substantiate this or dont come back into this thread.


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    #149
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    markodaly wrote: »
    The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.

    There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.

    Absolutely not, but there is a significant part of the international pro-Israeli lobby that leaps to conflate criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism.


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    #150
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    PinotNero wrote: »
    You have evidence to support this?
    Antisemitism is the bastard child of many mothers, right, left whatever you're having yourself, but it has long be recognised as an issue within Muslim communities in Europe. Here's the wikipedia entry on the matter, with sub pages expanding on it more.. Mein Kampf is a popular enough book still in print in the Middle East. Hit the best seller lists in both Egypt and Turkey. On the left isn't the British Labour Party under fire at the moment after being accused of it?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #151
    PinotNero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭PinotNero


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Antisemitism is the bastard child of many mothers, right, left whatever you're having yourself, but it has long be recognised as an issue within Muslim communities in Europe. Here's the wikipedia entry on the matter, with sub pages expanding on it more.. Mein Kampf is a popular enough book still in print in the Middle East. Hit the best seller lists in both Egypt and Turkey. On the left isn't the British Labour Party under fire at the moment after being accused of it?

    I'm not denying any of that but saying only Muslims and the "Left" are the causes of modern anti-semitism is nonsense.
    Much of the anti-semitism in Eastern Europe is down to right wing ultra nationalist groups.
    In Western Europe there are many Neo-Nazi and fascist groups which are deeply hostile to Jews and Judaism.


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