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West classified as 'region in decline' by EU

13567

Comments

  • #62
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,975 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    In fairness they haven't invested in rail anywhere really.

    But at least most of the country has a functioning railway system of some sort. The NW has nothing. Zilch.


  • #63
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,975 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you mean as opposed to villages? as mentioned, if you live say 4km from the nearest population centre, provision of facilities becomes much more expensive. and you become welded to the car.

    Not an argument as to why a big employer can't be located in our nearest town though.


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    Well is it not telling that after Dublin, Cork gets the most outside investment, followed by Limerick, Galway and Waterford? There's a clear pattern of companies favouring larger population centres. Google "100/200 jobs announced" and all the results are news items from these cities or large towns like Dundalk.

    Nobody's saying no companies want to set up in rural areas. It's just that the their first 20 ports of call are larger cities and towns.

    I hope you don't think I'm saying nobody should set up in western regions or that we should discourage it. My point is that it's too easy and simplified to blame the government.

    i think thats fair and reasoned as a setting out of what the situation is, and i agree that blaming is useless as a present step.

    now, can we agree that it is a problem, and can we challenge the governement to do something from now on to address it?

    say if half the money comes from elsewhere, can we talk about it in that way then?

    because i cannot see why the idea of bringing jobs, people, facilities and services back west wouldnt be win-win for everybody in this country and it bemuses me to see posters on the attack at the notion it could be attempted


  • #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Balf wrote: »
    And what is it that Government could and should do that hasn't been tried?

    Its not about a lack of capital spend, because such investment isn't concentrated in Dublin. For the sake of argument, Shannon Airport doesn't lack flights because the airport isn't able to handle them.

    So what is it that you think Government should do, that hasn't already been done?

    We've had incentives for local business, incentives for FDI, investment in infrastructure, EU money poured into farming.

    The cost of housing is so low that, effectively, folk moving to Longford avoid a six figure cost.

    So what is it that's missing that Government can do?


    colour me stunned that figures per capita arent the full pictures when

    i. we're talking about a region playing serious catch-up

    ii. the population density differential is one of the problems we are actually discussing

    ie to reverse a problematic trend, its no surprise that the figures justifying the current trend dont make a great case


  • #66
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,848 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But at least most of the country has a functioning railway system of some sort. The NW has nothing. Zilch.

    Is Sligo not in the NW?


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  • #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is Sligo not in the NW?

    no, not really tbh imo


  • #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Dublin could cope with a lot, lot more people if we just planned things better and got our sh*t together.

    agree totally, but this is what we're asking for for the rural regions also!


  • #69
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    colour me stunned that figures per capita arent the full pictures when

    i. we're talking about a region playing serious catch-up

    ii. the population density differential is one of the problems we are actually discussing

    ie to reverse a problematic trend, its no surprise that the figures justifying the current trend dont make a great case
    With respect, you are sidestepping the issue.

    Rural advocates tend to make their case on the basis that their areas are neglected. They tend not to acknowledge that many policy measures have already been tried.

    And they tend to create the impression that the spend goes elsewhere.

    So what's the significant change that you are looking for? Do I take it you're as empty of ideas as everyone else?


  • #70
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    no, not really tbh imo
    So the North West is just Donegal? Or is it just Dungloe?


  • #71
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Deleted User wrote: »
    no, not really tbh imo

    It definitely is. Just look at a map of Ireland, Sligo is almost directly north west of the centre point of the country. Letterkenny is more north than north west.


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  • #72
    boardlady
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭boardlady


    Those posters who are firmly in the 'Dublin or nothing' camp, don't seem to be able to think outside their own preference. I am happily living in my one off house and commuting to the near large town for work. I am like a pig in **** with the beautiful countryside, my short commute and my relaxed pace of life. My kids are reared without the 'estate' mentality, have greater access to the environment at its rawest and were able to afford a much bigger house and better lifestyle by choosing to live where we do.
    Those are the positives. I could also list the negatives - but we already discussed those; the need for a diesel guzzling car always, lack of high speed broadband etc yada yada. But, my point is, we made the choice to pick this way/location for our lives. So there are those, maybe not the majority, but those who do want to live like this and would appreciate some level of enhanced infrastructure to allow us to do so. Primarily, the business in which to secure jobs. Everything else is frankly, icing on the cake. Nobody is suggesting a mass exodus from the major cities - that wouldn't happen anyway - but just enough support to allow those who do want to make the move/return to the countryside to do so.


  • #73
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    boardlady wrote: »
    I could also list the negatives - but we already discussed those; the need for a diesel guzzling car always, lack of high speed broadband etc yada yada.
    the fact that the rest of us are paying extra for your lifestyle choice may not be a negative for you, probably a positive?


  • #74
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    NIMAN wrote: »
    There seems to be a 100% belief that all companies are saying "we want to be in Dublin and nowhere else".

    How do people know this?
    The IDA have tried literally giving them money not to set up in Dublin.
    They couldn't even persuade Ebay to go as far west as Athlone.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ebay-decision-to-locate-in-dublin-a-major-boost-for-tech-sector-1.376384
    But the obvious success associated with creating 800 new skilled jobs in Dublin was correctly mixed with some regret at eBay's decision to reject extra grant aid to set up in a regional town, believed to be Athlone.


  • #75
    ncounties
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    Deleted User wrote: »
    no, not really tbh imo

    What?


  • #76
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the funny thing about ireland is that a significant amount of inishowen is east of mullingar. so inishowen is in the north east, i guess.


  • #77
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Deleted User wrote: »
    no, not really tbh imo

    Sligo's not in the North West :D:D:D

    Where exactly do you think it is?


  • #78
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    Pretty much this. My parents have been doing a lot of travelling Ireland and the world the last few years as we kids have grown up and gotten jobs. My mother seems easily impressed as they seem to have yet to have a bad trip, and apparently everywhere on earth is beautiful.

    The only exception seems to have been Donegal. Food, hotel, people etc. were all lovely, but they said it's actually an unpleasant county to look at because they've just built everywhere. Houses just thrown everywhere, along every road and field and along every beach.

    I know that's not scientific evidence for anything but it's telling that in a country full of one off housing, my parents (who wouldn't even recognise terms like "dispersed population" or "ribbon development") still noticed the excessive sprawl in Donegal. I'd imagine a proper, evidence based survey of this and its effects on industry and quality of life would be damning.

    Look up rundale system , comes from the time of the landlord's and tenant farmers, it's centuries old


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the fact that the rest of us are paying extra for your lifestyle choice may not be a negative for you, probably a positive?

    ah here

    everyone in the greater dublin vortex, self included, are already paying stupid money for housing for ourselves and for those in this high-demand region not covering their own costs of living.

    set aside the social costs of commuters on the roads several hours a day to get to the same square mile as every other sod at the same time and all the rest of it

    someone living in claremorris and paying their own way besides should be a long feckin way down your list of things draining your taxes ffs


  • #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Balf wrote: »
    With respect, you are sidestepping the issue.

    Rural advocates tend to make their case on the basis that their areas are neglected. They tend not to acknowledge that many policy measures have already been tried.

    And they tend to create the impression that the spend goes elsewhere.

    So what's the significant change that you are looking for? Do I take it you're as empty of ideas as everyone else?

    with respect, your respect could use some polish

    and fyi thelonious and myself have agreed agenda items 1 and 2 on a cross-spectrum basis and theyre posted quite legibly in this thread.

    and furthermore ive said several times that the problem in this thread isnt complaints that things havent been tried. its the sneering attitude of posters towards asking the government what else hasnt been tried, or what might be tried differently.


  • #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    It definitely is. Just look at a map of Ireland, Sligo is almost directly north west of the centre point of the country. Letterkenny is more north than north west.

    ok i wont die on this hill, Sligo can be northwest. but train services stopping at sligo as if they serve donegal adequately is a woeful effort.


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  • #82
    boardlady
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭boardlady


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the fact that the rest of us are paying extra for your lifestyle choice may not be a negative for you, probably a positive?

    But as had been said already, we are such a minority .. are we not supporting ourselves? Anyway, I pay taxes too you know. Those who 'pay taxes' hate to feel they are paying for those things that do not apply specifically to them.


  • #83
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    NIMAN wrote: »


    But I think they prefer to bring them to the big cities first.

    I don't think thats the case at all. The government would love to see these industries dispersed (helps ease housing and traffic problems, gets them rural votes, etc) but the companies want somewhere with plenty skilled labour, easy access by air, etc.


  • #84
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ok i wont die on this hill, Sligo can be northwest. but train services stopping at sligo as if they serve donegal adequately is a woeful effort.

    They don't serve Donegal, I don't think anyone is arguing that, they do serve the north west though. Regardless, a train service to Dublin won't fix any of the west's or north west's problems. Sligo, is a perfect example of this. It has a train to Dublin and Sligo has been stagnating for what feels like an eternity. All a train service will do is make it easier for the people who moved away to Dublin to go back home for weekends or events.

    I've had this same discussion with people saying we need a motorway all the way from Sligo to Dublin. They say that it will lead to companies opening in Dublin. No, it won't. Why would a company that was originally going to open in Dublin suddenly open in Sligo because now it only takes 2.5 hours to drive to Dublin instead of 3 hours. They won't.


  • #85
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    crossman47 wrote: »
    I don't think thats the case at all. The government would love to see these industries dispersed (helps ease housing and traffic problems, gets them rural votes, etc) but the companies want somewhere with plenty skilled labour, easy access by air, etc.

    This is exactly it. They would love to see these companies open somewhere like Donegal and Sligo etc. It's a win, win. It doesn't add to the congestion and housing issues in Dublin, Cork etc and it brings jobs to these other towns so will make the government parties more popular in those areas.


  • #86
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ah here

    everyone in the greater dublin vortex, self included, are already paying stupid money for housing for ourselves and for those in this high-demand region not covering their own costs of living.

    set aside the social costs of commuters on the roads several hours a day to get to the same square mile as every other sod at the same time and all the rest of it

    someone living in claremorris and paying their own way besides should be a long feckin way down your list of things draining your taxes ffs
    i genuinely don't know what point you're making.
    it's not a radical thing to suggest that so many people wanting to live in one off houses several kilometres from the nearest nucleated settlement isn't good for the country as a whole.

    and yes, on a selfish level, my electricity bills are higher because of people wanting to live in a field, undisturbed by humanity, except for people living in the next field over.
    it's more expensive for me to post a letter because of one off housing.
    my broadband is more expensive. my taxes are higher.


  • #87
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The West might be assisted by politicians who are grounded in reality. I would be interested in seeing the ratio of Dail speeches on the Western Rail Corridor vs Dail speeches on upgrading the N17 and N15.

    At the last general election I saw one of the TDs saying that Sligo will become an economic powerhouse when it gets an electrified railway service between Sligo, Athenry, Limerick and Rosslare. When this is the level of absolute nonsense being peddled it's little surprise the region is struggling.

    The West could be greatly aided by upgrading the N4, N5 and N17, to dual carriageway or proper single carriageway standard, as is currently proposed. There's little point in focusing on anything until you can actually move around the place. The Western Rail Corridor is a sinkhole of funding that'll never be viable and never will bring any gains to the North West.

    Not everything has to be about attracting US investment either. There are plenty of opportunities to drive indigenous investment.


  • #88
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd say donegal has most to fear. any small industry up there producing tangible goods are still waiting to see how brexit will affect them; shipping goods down via donegal town and avoiding the six counties will just add time and money for them.


  • #89
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    boardlady wrote: »
    But as had been said already, we are such a minority .. are we not supporting ourselves? Anyway, I pay taxes too you know. Those who 'pay taxes' hate to feel they are paying for those things that do not apply specifically to them.

    No, not in terms of government expenditure versus where the tax comes from.

    Almost all counties in Ireland have a deficit, receiving more government funding than they take in through tax. I believe that Dublin and Cork are the only two counties with a positive tax flow, so essentially the two most urban counties in Ireland fund the rest.

    It's a bit reductive though, I don't agree counties should be required to fund themselves, that'd be the death knell of rural Ireland. I do think that there needs to be wholesale changes to the way Ireland lives though.


  • #90
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Deleted User wrote: »
    and furthermore ive said several times that the problem in this thread isnt complaints that things havent been tried. its the sneering attitude of posters towards asking the government what else hasnt been tried, or what might be tried differently.
    There's no sneering attitude, just a huge chip from rural advocates who, surely, must know that they're making no sense.


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  • #91
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Regardless, a train service to Dublin won't fix any of the west's or north west's problems. Sligo, is a perfect example of this. It has a train to Dublin and Sligo has been stagnating for what feels like an eternity. All a train service will do is make it easier for the people who moved away to Dublin to go back home for weekends or events.
    And this is the crucial point for me.

    I'd like to see rural advocates actually say something meaningful about why the investments already made achieve so little.

    The Mid-West in particular has had huge incentives over the years. So why isn't it doing better?

    The same old "Dublin gets everything" whinge gets us nowhere, particularly when its evident that everywhere gets a reasonable share of such resources as we have.


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