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Home heating automation

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Comments

  • #1682
    kenco
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭kenco


    deezell wrote: »
    On the Danfoss, 3 is HW on and 4 is CH on. Had you bought a Kit 2, the backplate is standard and you would only have had to unclip the Danfoss and clip on the Wiser.

    Deezell

    Many thanks again for your help! One last question (I hope)
    Backplate rewired and Wiser 3 installed. New Thermostats set up and I assume setting down. In relation to the old Danfoss wall mounted stats as they are now redundant should they be set to the max of min setting or is something more needed?

    Thanks again


  • #1683
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    kenco wrote: »
    Deezell

    Many thanks again for your help! One last question (I hope)
    Backplate rewired and Wiser 3 installed. New Thermostats set up and I assume setting down. In relation to the old Danfoss wall mounted stats as they are now redundant should they be set to the max of min setting or is something more needed?

    Thanks again

    Turned up full, or remove and splice the wires. Youve paired both stats though you only have one CH zone?


  • #1684
    kenco
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭kenco


    Thanks

    Ill leave the old stats where they are for now so will just set them both to max

    on the new stats they are both added to the ap one for upstairs and one for downstairs. There was only the one wire connected to the backplate for CH??


  • #1685
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    kenco wrote: »
    Thanks

    Ill leave the old stats where they are for now so will just set them both to max

    on the new stats they are both added to the ap one for upstairs and one for downstairs. There was only the one wire connected to the backplate for CH??

    So why have you two stats? It's possible you have a two thermostat controlled system, but both zones timed by a single timer.


  • #1686
    kenco
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭kenco


    deezell wrote: »
    So why have you two stats? It's possible you have a two thermostat controlled system, but both zones timed by a single timer.

    Possibly? The old Danfoss controller turn the HW and CH heating on and off via the programe (i.e. turn on at 9:00 turn off at 11:00). There was only one CH and HW water wired up on points 3 and 4. The wall thermostats could then be adjusted for upstairs and downstairs but really the were always pretty much set the same.

    So with the set up is the second thermostat effectively redundant? I added them both as channel 1 in the set up? Not sure if thats right or not?


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  • #1687
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    kenco wrote: »
    Possibly? The old Danfoss controller turn the HW and CH heating on and off via the programe (i.e. turn on at 9:00 turn off at 11:00). There was only one CH and HW water wired up on points 3 and 4. The wall thermostats could then be adjusted for upstairs and downstairs but really the were always pretty much set the same.

    So with the set up is the second thermostat effectively redundant? I added them both as channel 1 in the set up? Not sure if thats right or not?

    Just had a look back there, I recalled answering this before in post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111773747&postcount=1561

    "Check the rightmost wiring terminal on the Danfoss, no 4, CH on. If there aren't two separate wires leaving this, one to each stat, then there will be a bit of extra wiring required to reach the CH zone valves from whichever receiver(s) you use. A simple alternative which is DIY, is to install two Tado or two Hive wired stats in place of the old ones and leave the Danfoss for HW, turning CH on it to always on."

    The problem is that if you have two seperate zone valves being switched by their individual stats, these stats in turn are normally supplied by individual timed schedules. Both your stats are supplied by a single timed signal down one wire from the danfoss, you need to be able to send the individual wireless stat/timer signals from the Wiser's two CH channels to the two zone valves via the individual wires returning from the stats. That single timed CH wire from the danfoss must get split at some point and sent to each stat.
    The wiring adjustment to correct this might not be trivial, as the single live timed signal is possibly daisy chained from one stat to the other, with the individual thermostat outputs being returned over two wires, one for each stat, to their zone motorised valves.
    It could be a simple fix if the two ch zone valves and hw valve are not far from the danfoss, as you can wire both CH outputs to their respective valves, disconnecting the single wire up/two wires back from the old stats.
    Even if the danfoss is well away from the valves, you can scrap it altogether and install the wiser receiver close to and directly wired to the zone valves. You'll just need a mains supply for the wiser receiver and one wire each from the receivers 3 outputs to the 3 zone valves.
    This extra wiring task caused by the mismatch between no of timers and no of zones is why I suggested the simpler solution above 3 months ago, by swapping your old stats for wired smart stats like tado or hive wired. This would give full time/temperature control of each of the two ch channels, with the Danfoss HW timer continuing to control HW zone valve and with Danfoss single timed CH set to always on to supply mains for timed/temperature switching by the new wired smart stats. I hope this makes sense to you.


  • #1688
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,946 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Anyone reccomend a system for an old house. I've just moved into a 60 year old house, rads etc were all replaced maybe 30 years ago but no TRVs on most of them. Upgrading to a combi boiler but want to have a smart system. I had Netatmo previously and found it good.

    Can I get something like Netatmo and Tado and just stick eTRVs on to the old rads or so they need to be upgraded aswell. I loved the system with just one zone but am keen to improve on that a little for the new house and TRVs seem from from my limited reading, a good option in this regard? Any other recommendations? Thanks


  • #1689
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    duffman13 wrote: »
    Anyone reccomend a system for an old house. I've just moved into a 60 year old house, rads etc were all replaced maybe 30 years ago but no TRVs on most of them. Upgrading to a combi boiler but want to have a smart system. I had Netatmo previously and found it good.

    Can I get something like Netatmo and Tado and just stick eTRVs on to the old rads or so they need to be upgraded aswell. I loved the system with just one zone but am keen to improve on that a little for the new house and TRVs seem from from my limited reading, a good option in this regard? Any other recommendations? Thanks

    TRVs if the rads have the right valves, otherwise consider replacing all old rads. 1960 house? Rads might be in a bad way unless they're cast, which I doubt.


  • #1690
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Btw, for those considering a new boiler, here's a good deal.
    https://www.calorgas.ie/switch
    While lpg gas is a little more expensive per kwh than a new condensor oil boiler, it's highly efficient and may actually be more cost effective than your current old unserviced inneficient oil boiler. Plus, if you cook using lpg instead of electricity it's faster and less expensive. The install is free, 1000l lpg free, and the boiler is much smaller and cleaner.
    I haven't read into the t&cs, but if your house is decently insulated this might make financial sense to some.


  • #1691
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    I was thinking of getting Hive but I don't think I'd get the value from it. All we really want is the ability to turn on the heating through the phone remotely. Don't need smart thermostats.

    Is there anyway to be able to this without having to spend €€€?


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  • #1692
    cargen
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭cargen


    Wheety wrote: »
    I was thinking of getting Hive but I don't think I'd get the value from it. All we really want is the ability to turn on the heating through the phone remotely. Don't need smart thermostats.

    Is there anyway to be able to this without having to spend €€€?

    I am currently trying a sonoff 4ch R2 to control 2 zones and hw.
    It works for basic on/off and timer.
    You can turn heating on remotely as well.

    I wouldn't say it is user friendly but worth having a look for 25 euro and if you are good on diy


  • #1693
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Wheety wrote: »
    I was thinking of getting Hive but I don't think I'd get the value from it. All we really want is the ability to turn on the heating through the phone remotely. Don't need smart thermostats.

    Is there anyway to be able to this without having to spend €€€?
    Sonoff, as per previous post, but you should have some kind of thermostat. No one ever saved a cent trying to act as a human thermostat, jumping up and down adding or subtracting 'notches' on those irritating 24 hour mechanical timers. You'll be doing the same with an on-off App, playing "beat the boiler".
    For every time you felt cold and had to boost the boiler, there would be a time when it came on when not needed because it was warm enough or you weren't there. Smart can not only save its price in a year, it can create a schedule thats always warm and comfortable, rather than hot-cold-on-off Irish style central heating. I Never have to go near the Tado app. House is always comfortable, yet isn't burning oil excessively. There's none of that full blast heating required to restore a frigid house which has been allowed to chill to excess, which defeats the purpose of smart control. Minimum but temperate night and away temperatures ensure it's easy to restore the extra few degrees when required.


  • #1694
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    cargen wrote: »
    I am currently trying a sonoff 4ch R2 to control 2 zones and hw.
    It works for basic on/off and timer.
    You can turn heating on remotely as well.

    I wouldn't say it is user friendly but worth having a look for 25 euro and if you are good on diy

    I have a couple of Sonoff BasicR2s set up so I'll look into this.

    Is it a case of wiring the 4 wires from current programmer (2 zones on and off) to this?


  • #1695
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    deezell wrote: »
    Sonoff, as per previous post, but you should have some kind of thermostat. No one ever saved a cent trying to act as a human thermostat, jumping up and down adding or subtracting 'notches' on those irritating 24 hour mechanical timers. You'll be doing the same with an on-off App, playing "beat the boiler".
    For every time you felt cold and had to boost the boiler, there would be a time when it came on when not needed because it was warm enough or you weren't there. Smart can not only save its price in a year, it can create a schedule thats always warm and comfortable, rather than hot-cold-on-off Irish style central heating. I Never have to go near the Tado app. House is always comfortable, yet isn't burning oil excessively. There's none of that full blast heating required to restore a frigid house which has been allowed to chill to excess, which defeats the purpose of smart control. Minimum but temperate night and away temperatures ensure it's easy to restore the extra few degrees when required.
    We have regular thermostats but when we're out the heating is set to off, so we'd like to be able to turn it on when we're heading home.

    But, yeah we tend to do it the 'Irish style' way so maybe we should be changing our habits.


  • #1696
    cargen
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭cargen


    Wheety wrote: »
    I have a couple of Sonoff BasicR2s set up so I'll look into this.

    Is it a case of wiring the 4 wires from current programmer (2 zones on and off) to this?

    Yes this is exactly what I did.


  • #1697
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Wheety wrote: »
    We have regular thermostats but when we're out the heating is set to off, so we'd like to be able to turn it on when we're heading home.

    But, yeah we tend to do it the 'Irish style' way so maybe we should be changing our habits.

    So you have wired stats and zones? Then any pair of smart stats wired/wireless in place of your existing ones, set up a schedule, and leave it to do the work. Two wired Netatmo or Tado would drop straight in place of your existing wall stats. Nest also with a little more wiring. Wireless Hive or Drayton wiser can positioned in the zones, and the wireless receivers wired back at tge zine valves, or in place of any zone timer controller you already have. It's a DIY job in many cases, or perhaps get a deal from gas/electric utility for free/nearly free install.


  • #1698
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    deezell wrote: »
    So you have wired stats and zones? Then any pair of smart stats wired/wireless in place of your existing ones, set up a schedule, and leave it to do the work. Two wired Netatmo or Tado would drop straight in place of your existing wall stats. Nest also with a little more wiring. Wireless Hive or Drayton wiser can positioned in the zones, and the wireless receivers wired back at tge zine valves, or in place of any zone timer controller you already have. It's a DIY job in many cases, or perhaps get a deal from gas/electric utility for free/nearly free install.

    So leave the heating on and just the thermostats to control it?


  • #1699
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Wheety wrote: »
    So leave the heating on and just the thermostats to control it?

    That's how it works. Timing and temperature control is built into the stats, so they vary the set temperature over a 27/7 period, and can detect if you're not there using geolocation, plus you can vary the schedule from your phone at any time, turn it down further, off, etc. Typically for an all at work/school household you would build a schedule for each zone for each weekday and weekends. Once it starts working for you you'll never really have to touch a stat again. If the weather gets warm, the boiler will only fire for HW, assuming you have a HW zone independent of CH, or else a direct HW combi boiler.


  • #1700
    John_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    We had a single zone gas boiler upgraded to handle 3 zones controlled by Nest with 2 thermostats. It was only installed yesterday.

    Last night after the installers had left the upstairs thermostat lost connection with the heatlink. I moved it around but it continued to happen.

    Is there a way of boosting the maximum 30 metres? If not, can I use a wired connection between heatlink and thermostat? All of the places I read up on last night said the connection was wireless and that the cable between heatlink and thermostat is for power only.


  • #1701
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    John_Mc wrote: »
    We had a single zone gas boiler upgraded to handle 3 zones controlled by Nest with 2 thermostats. It was only installed yesterday.

    Last night after the installers had left the upstairs thermostat lost connection with the heatlink. I moved it around but it continued to happen.

    Is there a way of boosting the maximum 30 metres? If not, can I use a wired connection between heatlink and thermostat? All of the places I read up on last night said the connection was wireless and that the cable between heatlink and thermostat is for power only.

    Not true. The cable for power also carries the digital signal, this hasn't changed as far as I know. There will always be cases where the stat and receiver are too far apart, thick walls etc, and wired is required.
    A single floor sounds like not enough to prevent the stat reaching the heatlink wirelessly and vice versa, maybe there is some other interference to the signal, a cordless phone or other smart device a bit too close to heatlink or stat.


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  • #1702
    John_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    deezell wrote: »
    Not true. The cable for power also carries the digital signal, this hasn't changed as far as I know. There will always be cases where the stat and receiver are too far apart, thick walls etc, and wired is required.
    A single floor sounds like not enough to prevent the stat reaching the heatlink wirelessly and vice versa, maybe there is some other interference to the signal, a cordless phone or other smart device a bit too close to heatlink or stat.

    Yeah I think that's the case. Good to know that the cable carries the digital signal as well. There are already cables running from boiler upstairs to attic so I'll try that.

    Don't suppose you know what type of cabling I need?


  • #1703
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    John_Mc wrote: »
    Yeah I think that's the case. Good to know that the cable carries the digital signal as well. There are already cables running from boiler upstairs to attic so I'll try that.

    Don't suppose you know what type of cabling I need?

    The principle of a wired nest was that you reuse the pair of cables that went originally from your zone valves to the mechanical wall stat. As these would originally have been carrying Switched Live Mains, probably from a timer to the stat and back to the boiler, it's ESSENTIAL that this pair of wires is fully isolated from its previous use, before using them to make the low voltage connection from Heatlink to Nest stat. Sometimes mechanical wall stats were fed from a spurious local live feed, with only the single SL stat mains wire returning to the boiler or valves. As you only had a single zone originally, it's unlikely you had a wired stat upstairs, so you'll need to run a light twin wire cable from your upstairs zone assigned Heatlink (I assume you have two?), to the Nest stat backplate. Light twin oval .75mm square cable would be fine for this.


  • #1704
    John_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    deezell wrote: »
    The principle of a wired nest was that you reuse the pair of cables that went originally from your zone valves to the mechanical wall stat. As these would originally have been carrying Switched Live Mains, probably from a timer to the stat and back to the boiler, it's ESSENTIAL that this pair of wires is fully isolated from its previous use, before using them to make the low voltage connection from Heatlink to Nest stat. Sometimes mechanical wall stats were fed from a spurious local live feed, with only the single SL stat mains wire returning to the boiler or valves. As you only had a single zone originally, it's unlikely you had a wired stat upstairs, so you'll need to run a light twin wire cable from your upstairs zone assigned Heatlink (I assume you have two?), to the Nest stat backplate. Light twin oval .75mm square cable would be fine for this.

    Thanks very much for the info. There was actually no thermostat at all previously so this will be running new wire up from the boiler to the location of the upstairs thermostat.

    There are two heatlinks alright, one for each thermostat and they work as long as I bring the thermostat from upstairs down with me.

    Are you sure that the twin cable is for power and digital signals? The diagram on page 10 here describes it as just power: https://nest.com/support/images/misc-nest-thermostat-eu/gen3-install/3rd-gen-Nest-Learning-Thermostat-Install-Guide-UK.pdf


  • #1705
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    John_Mc wrote: »
    Thanks very much for the info. There was actually no thermostat at all previously so this will be running new wire up from the boiler to the location of the upstairs thermostat.

    There are two heatlinks alright, one for each thermostat and they work as long as I bring the thermostat from upstairs down with me.

    Are you sure that the twin cable is for power and digital signals? The diagram on page 10 here describes it as just power: https://nest.com/support/images/misc-nest-thermostat-eu/gen3-install/3rd-gen-Nest-Learning-Thermostat-Install-Guide-UK.pdf

    It's a good few years since I installed a generation 2 for family, I'm certain it referred to the signalling via wire. I can't seem to find the gen 2 installation instructions, insofar as they were probably identical to gen 3. I've seen reference to the fact that wireless mesh connection is maintained even with wired connection. It could be as simple as the fact that the wires are used as a conduit for the RF signals, giving a more reliable path than over the air. This paragraph from Nest's own support seems to vaguely confirm this;

    504118.jpg

    This is taken from here, last item, "Learn how your thermostat communicates with the Heat Link".
    BTW, "Wireless thread" refers to the specific wireless mesh network used between the stat, heatlink and other mesh devices, and is completely seperate to your WiFi networked which is accessed only the connect to the outside world and the app.

    https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9256498?hl=en-GB


  • #1706
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    deezell wrote: »
    That's how it works. Timing and temperature control is built into the stats, so they vary the set temperature over a 27/7 period, and can detect if you're not there using geolocation, plus you can vary the schedule from your phone at any time, turn it down further, off, etc. Typically for an all at work/school household you would build a schedule for each zone for each weekday and weekends. Once it starts working for you you'll never really have to touch a stat again. If the weather gets warm, the boiler will only fire for HW, assuming you have a HW zone independent of CH, or else a direct HW combi boiler.
    Cheers. Had a look at Tado there. Just replacing the Termostats might be the way. I'll have a look at Netamo too. Could even replace the radiator ones over time if needed, or even just some of them.

    These seem a better option for me than replacing the controls too. Just leave heating on and control the thermostats remotely.


  • #1707
    Caillte
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Caillte


    After almost 2 years of holding out i have taken Tado's off of 50% discount to upgrade to V3+ app. Im a pre V3+ user so its a once off payment for me. I musr be close to €500+ spent on tado at this point. Totally worth it.


  • #1708
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Caillte wrote: »
    After almost 2 years of holding out i have taken Tado's off of 50% discount to upgrade to V3+ app. Im a pre V3+ user so its a once off payment for me. I musr be close to €500+ spent on tado at this point. Totally worth it.

    After you give the new app a good lash, tell us what you think in comparison to the old.


  • #1709
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,131 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Hi guys, we're looking at changing to electric ireland at the mo and was thinking of grabbing the nest for €130 while we do it.

    I'm not sure if our system would be compatible though. We have oil and back boiler stove with three zones (downstairs/upstairs/hot water). I know we'd need two nests to fully control all three but I was thinking of just putting one nest downstairs and leaving upstairs and HW manual as upstairs generally requires a lot less heating and we don't use that much HW.

    The stove and oil are wired through a systemlink so if both are on stove gets priority, we currently have EPH controls and valves, basically this without the wall thermostats: https://www.ephcontrols.com/section/3-zone-heating-control-pack/

    Stove can only heat one of upstairs or downstairs at a time on its own (can trick it into doing both by switching on the oil in both zones though).

    Does this system sound too complicated to just add a nest without much trouble?

    It's working pretty well at the mo in fairness but have a few smart home devices already and I like the idea of adding a nest.

    Thanks!


  • #1710
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭deezell


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Hi guys, we're looking at changing to electric ireland at the mo and was thinking of grabbing the nest for €130 while we do it.

    I'm not sure if our system would be compatible though. We have oil and back boiler stove with three zones (downstairs/upstairs/hot water). I know we'd need two nests to fully control all three but I was thinking of just putting one nest downstairs and leaving upstairs and HW manual as upstairs generally requires a lot less heating and we don't use that much HW.

    The stove and oil are wired through a systemlink so if both are on stove gets priority, we currently have EPH controls and valves, basically this without the wall thermostats: https://www.ephcontrols.com/section/3-zone-heating-control-pack/

    Stove can only heat one of upstairs or downstairs at a time on its own (can trick it into doing both by switching on the oil in both zones though).

    Does this system sound too complicated to just add a nest without much trouble?

    It's working pretty well at the mo in fairness but have a few smart home devices already and I like the idea of adding a nest.

    Thanks!

    One nest will give you thermostat/timing control of one CH zone and timing of another zone, usually HW, but it could be used for non thermostatic control of upstairs CH zone, and leave the HW on the EPH. The stove priority relay on the systemlink lex box, which cuts the oil boiler when the stove stat turns on, can only be strapped to one zone valve, otherwise they would act as one valve, hence the stove only heats one zone. This is a compulsory call, even if the zone had a stat which was at target temperature, as you must dissipate stove heat to prevent overheating the solid fuel boiler. Now with the addition of the nest wired into the box correctly, it should allow downstairs access to the stove heated flow if and when the nest calls for heat in this zone. It will seamlessly switch to oil heated flow when the stove cools. Its a pity the offer is for a single Nest, as its usually full cost price for the second unit, but if this included installation it would be a good deal. Drayton wiser kit3 would be another simple install, the receiver just pops onto the 3 zone eph plate, with just a little chage to the plate wiring. Hive is similarly straightforward for 3 zone, the receivers wiring direct to lex in place of the eph.
    See if any of the electric utilities are installing other than nest, though tbh, if you got two nests installed for €130 and, what, €290 for the second, you'd have a really smart system.


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  • #1711
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,131 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    deezell wrote: »
    One nest will give you thermostat/timing control of one CH zone and timing of another zone, usually HW, but it could be used for non thermostatic control of upstairs CH zone, and leave the HW on the EPH. The stove priority relay on the systemlink lex box, which cuts the oil boiler when the stove stat turns on, can only be strapped to one zone valve, otherwise they would act as one valve, hence the stove only heats one zone. This is a compulsory call, even if the zone had a stat which was at target temperature, as you must dissipate stove heat to prevent overheating the solid fuel boiler. Now with the addition of the nest wired into the box correctly, it should allow downstairs access to the stove heated flow if and when the nest calls for heat in this zone. It will seamlessly switch to oil heated flow when the stove cools. Its a pity the offer is for a single Nest, as its usually full cost price for the second unit, but if this included installation it would be a good deal. Drayton wiser kit3 would be another simple install, the receiver just pops onto the 3 zone eph plate, with just a little chage to the plate wiring. Hive is similarly straightforward for 3 zone, the receivers wiring direct to lex in place of the eph.
    See if any of the electric utilities are installing other than nest, though tbh, if you got two nests installed for €130 and, what, €290 for the second, you'd have a really smart system.

    Thanks, I'll see what the story is with adding a second nest then. They're also doing an offer for climote at the mo.

    One other detail I left out is there's two stats for the stove, one at the stove's out pipe which controls the temp where it starts pumping to the rads but a second in the hot press that tells it it switch between the zones (if I put this second one to zero it pumps straight to upstairs, if i set it very high it only goes downstairs, the idea was you can set it to a certain temp where it will automatically switch zones once it's detected downstairs is warm enough).


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