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Existing insulated plasterboard in BER?

  • 05-01-2021 10:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭


    We bought an E1 rated house last January. It has insulated plasterboard that was not in the BER carried out for the sale.

    We carried out a lot of work and insulated cavity and roof under the SEAI grant scheme, resulting in C1 rating. I felt it should be B3. The assessor did not include the insulated slab. I queried the SEAI prior to the post insulation BER and they told me if I had photo evidence of it on all 4 walls it could be included in the wall u-value, ie removing sockets. The assessor told me today that it was his understanding that if there is no documented evidence he couldn't include it unless the SEAI put it in writing that the photos were acceptable.

    I rang the SEAI and they stated I needed to engage an architect or engineer to certify it. I said that I was told differently by SEAI just a few months ago. I said photos are evidence it is there and that a default could used in the external wall calculation but they are looking for something more technical.

    The reason I am pushing this is that I am have Solar PV installed tomorrow and want the post installation BER to reflect the actual construction and the money we spent on improvements.

    Anyone any thoughts?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭worlds goodest teecher



    I had a quick browse through that article but failed to see anything specifically related to my question. My apologies if I missed something. When we bought the house it was 300mm wide unfilled cavity with 40mm insulated slab internally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Dumdum McCarthy


    I can fully understand your story.. i had a similar situation about 6 years ago, i insulated all my parents house internal walls with kingspan insulated sheets. They are over 65 and got a free Ber and never took into account work then..
    iI questioned this when the person came back and like you said we have to see it, and its too late,while she was there i pulled off an internal vent and showed her no joy.
    iI would have believed its in everyone's best interest to give the correct assessment of any dwelling to improve the rating and be a true reflection.
    Any way story gets better another Ber cert done last year returns slightly better because they were entitled to a few weather strips and and and a letterbox cover in the years after.
    So last year they are now over 70 and got their house wrapped externally with insulation and plaster about 20,000e worth of a job.......the result a worse BER than what they started with...i dunno why maybe because they blew about 13 core holes out in the dwelling as per regulations. BTW house is roasting their Tv heats front room alone.
    Any i cant help but i understand your frustration i hope you get it sorted with out going to more expense and time wasting by them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Biker1


    Unless there is evidence of the manufacturer, type and thickness of insulation in any fabric element then default values have to be used by the assessor. In the case of drylining the default wall u-value can be adjusted based on the measured thickness of the insulation, using Table S3b in the DEAP manual


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,721 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    It's not unusual for SEAI to say different things in different phone calls.

    My understanding is :

    First option is documentation as evidence.
    Usually this is invoices which state the name of the product, the quantity of product, and the correct address.

    Certification by an inspecting architect / engineer is next. This certification must include the u value calculation BY THE CERTIFIER.

    Next option is photograph's of the product installed. The thicknesses of the product must be verifiable and measured. You need to use tgd L to get the TC value of the product, as you obviously can't confirm the exact make and model of an in situ insulation.

    The only option after that, is the assessor doesn't include it as its not verifiable and measurable.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Please don’t just post a link.
    As far as I can tell, the link has nothing to do with the OP’s post?


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Dumdum McCarthy


    Will there be a Full new BER rating done again? as in another person calling to look at finished work and re doing a full cert. If so be there yourself and show them the work done as in every room have a socket loose or a vent cover open, i do believe alot of people testing will come up with different answers at anyone dwelling.
    Hopefully if its a decent person they might sort you out,i just think its just added work they have to calculate and couldn't be bothered as in (cant see it wont count it) as i said give the person no reason not to. Or give them a 50e note like the good old days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭worlds goodest teecher


    Biker1 wrote: »
    Unless there is evidence of the manufacturer, type and thickness of insulation in any fabric element then default values have to be used by the assessor. In the case of drylining the default wall u-value can be adjusted based on the measured thickness of the insulation, using Table S3b in the DEAP manual

    I have the thickness (piece removed for new light switch) but the assessor will not use the default u-value. It's an improvement to a huge heat loss element. If I am paying for 2 ber assessments in 4 months I want it to be a true reflection.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭worlds goodest teecher


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Next option is photograph's of the product installed. The thicknesses of the product must be verifiable and measured. You need to use tgd L to get the TC value of the product, as you obviously can't confirm the exact make and model of an in situ insulation.
    I asked him to do that but he said really I needed it in writing from SEAI that photograph evidence of its existence was sufficient.

    I don't see what the problem is. I can use the thermal conductivity in the TGD and I have evidence of the thickness. But I don't have writen confirmation from SEAI that it will acceptable.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Will there be a Full new BER rating done again? as in another person calling to look at finished work and re doing a full cert. If so be there yourself and show them the work done as in every room have a socket loose or a vent cover open, i do believe alot of people testing will come up with different answers at anyone dwelling.
    Hopefully if its a decent person they might sort you out,i just think its just added work they have to calculate and couldn't be bothered as in (cant see it wont count it) as i said give the person no reason not to. Or give them a 50e note like the good old days.

    Read sydthebeat’s post, they know what they are talking about.

    ’decent person.. 50€ note’ .. trolling!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭worlds goodest teecher


    Will there be a Full new BER rating done again? as in another person calling to look at finished work and re doing a full cert. If so be there yourself and show them the work done as in every room have a socket loose or a vent cover open, i do believe alot of people testing will come up with different answers at anyone dwelling.
    Hopefully if its a decent person they might sort you out,i just think its just added work they have to calculate and couldn't be bothered as in (cant see it wont count it) as i said give the person no reason not to. Or give them a 50e note like the good old days.

    Not a full survey. Only addition of PV has changed.

    As for the 50e you might need that, can't see many surveys getting done under level 5+/$&.😉


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 VanPercy


    Not a full survey. Only addition of PV has changed.

    As for the 50e you might need that, can't see many surveys getting done under level 5+/$&.😉

    What happened in March last year..... were BERs still allowed?

    I take it a BER for a Socisl Houding project will still be allowed if they are still able to work?


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,721 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I asked him to do that but he said really I needed it in writing from SEAI that photograph evidence of its existence was sufficient.

    I don't see what the problem is. I can use the thermal conductivity in the TGD and I have evidence of the thickness. But I don't have writen confirmation from SEAI that it will acceptable.

    i just checked a recent audit and it appears your assessor is correct and i am incorrect in my previous post.
    "(300mm) and (200mm under storage)
    entered. The second entry is a nondefault
    for a non-visible area and
    should revert to ""Unknown"".
    Insulation under flooring, like any
    unseen insulation, requires
    documentary evidence if entering a
    non-default for the entire area. A
    measurement at the visible end does
    not suffice
    .

    so in my case above, there was 300mm of quilt in an attic
    a section of it was floored for storage, so the insulation here was squashed down to 200mm
    so even though I could visibly verify and photograph the 200mm quilt around all the ends of the storage area, the auditor didnt accept that as evidence.

    https://www.seai.ie/blog/ber-checklist/

    refer to the above for what a homeowner needs to do to prepare for an assessment.

    notably:
    Details of any upgrade works done to the house (if applicable) including any documentation, certifications, receipts, invoices and/or specifications documents from the architect, engineer or contractor who managed the works, that clearly indicate the address of the dwelling, the works carried out, and the products used. (e.g. for wall insulation this would include the wall area covered, the insulation type/product, and the thickness of insulation used)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭worlds goodest teecher


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i just checked a recent audit and it appears your assessor is correct and i am incorrect in my previous post.



    so in my case above, there was 300mm of quilt in an attic
    a section of it was floored for storage, so the insulation here was squashed down to 200mm
    so even though I could visibly verify and photograph the 200mm quilt around all the ends of the storage area, the auditor didnt accept that as evidence.

    https://www.seai.ie/blog/ber-checklist/

    refer to the above for what a homeowner needs to do to prepare for an assessment.

    notably:

    Is this not bulls#it? You are allowed include cavity insulation as being present if you observe it in the cavity in the meter box. Why not insulated slab if present when socket covers removed?

    In other news I had 3.2kW of PV panels installed today. Rating currently C1 approx 153 of CO2 emissions. Typically what improvement does PV per kW make?


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Dumdum McCarthy


    BryanF wrote: »
    Read sydthebeat’s post, they know what they are talking about.

    ’decent person.. 50€ note’ .. trolling!

    Trolling..
    make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

    I had to look up trolling for myself..
    My only intension was to share my experience with Op, and when its your house and the work is clearly done and clearly visible is very annoying when you have spent time and money to improve your home and not get that acknowledged.

    As for the 50e comment i might be in an older generation,where as the old DOE for vans ect one might have left a 20e clearly sticking out of the ash tray so they might pass the van..this sort of thing did happen i do understand thats wrong too..

    In no way did i mean to be offensive to anybody, i hope the Op can get his house up to the levels it deserves without going to much more expense.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,135 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Trolling..
    make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

    I had to look up trolling for myself..
    My only intension was to share my experience with Op, and when its your house and the work is clearly done and clearly visible is very annoying when you have spent time and money to improve your home and not get that acknowledged.

    As for the 50e comment i might be in an older generation,where as the old DOE for vans ect one might have left a 20e clearly sticking out of the ash tray so they might pass the van..this sort of thing did happen i do understand thats wrong too..

    In no way did i mean to be offensive to anybody, i hope the Op can get his house up to the levels it deserves without going to much more expense.



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