Viability of small dairy farm

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 7:07pm #1

Farming 60 acres, 12 acres silage and the rest grazing, 8 acres over the road, 35 acres grazing at home,10 acres is a bit rough but would do fine for calves (5 acres waste ground off silage ground) Currently have 19 sucklers, their calves and a few bought in calves, generally around 45 animals between cows calves everything on the farm at one time (very understocked i know), 24 cubicles on one side of the shed and straw bedded are on the other side.
Wondering whats the viability of buying in 24 fleckvieh heifers, average 6500-7000 litres a year and you have a good solid beef calf aswell, milk solids would be around 3.4% protein and 4.1% butterfat, assuming milk price would generally be around 35cent for this but will assume worst case scenario of base price in local coop of 31c/l, milk alone would be worth €2000 and keeping the calf to a year to keep the rough ground grazed, would be worth around 600-800 local mart, meaning 2600 per cow per year over 24 cows would be 62,400 income, second hand parlour off donedeal and new bulk tank, youd be in the door of dairy for 40,000 and you'd have that paid off in 3-4 years, we do our own slurry, contractor would do silage, we have a pit for first cut also could put second cut in there too and take a few paddocks for bales.
Once i'd have a bit saved up then i would plan to expand to 50/60 cows, put up a new 60 cubicle shed and new milking parlour and sell all calves at 2-4wks old

This is just hypothesising not a definitive plan just wondering would it work

Also has anyone ever used the injection to bring cattle into heat all at once AI them all on the one day that you could calve them all on the one day and would save a lot of long nights, same injection that would be given to young heifers if they have been bulled to get them to cycle and get rid of calf.

lalababa · 17-01-2021 8:04pm

If you can get a contract and suitable collection days then nothing wrong with 20 to 30 cows.I'd let the calves go at 3 weeks and give the extra time & fodder to the cows! Rough ground...? Let the cows on it/ Change/work it to meadow or lease it out and rent silage/grazing ground.
Know nothing bout induced cycling ðŸ™‚

TooOldBoots · 17-01-2021 8:47pm

I'd say it would all depend on your lifestyle, it would be a no no if you have an off farm job. Otherwise I wouldn't rule out a new milking machine and you could price one and see is there grants available. I've a neighbour who bit the bullet and done it, all second hand stuff, he bought in dairy heifers as calves, I know he was picking them up for less than €100 each!! and yes it was a bit of a gamble as the EBI numbers were unknown.
He had Suckler stock to sell, the cows were not too old and averaged €1000 + the Weanlen off them that year so he brought in a load of capital from the Sucklers.
I think the biggest issue he had was from the second hand milking machine and regretted not going new as he could have gotten a grant.
afaik the fleckvieh isn't all sunshine as they can be bad tempered, eat as much as a suckler and are a bigger cow. I would think you'd be better off with the British Friesian as the bull calf is still valuable unlike those jersey type yolks.
I wouldn't worry about holding size as once you are up and running you can always keep an eye out for another farm to rent.

staples7 · 17-01-2021 8:55pm

Nice plan and I think you need to be optimistic in farming. With smaller herds unless your working off farm also then managing outgoings is extremely important. You calculate 62k income but have you worked out costs. Feed, fertiliser, vets, breakdowns, contractors? Again not criticism but once you go in with eyes open.

We’re milking just over 110 and whatever is left over almost certainly has to go straight back in

Ford4life wrote: »

Farming 60 acres, 12 acres silage and the rest grazing, 8 acres over the road, 35 acres grazing at home,10 acres is a bit rough but would do fine for calves (5 acres waste ground off silage ground) Currently have 19 sucklers, their calves and a few bought in calves, generally around 45 animals between cows calves everything on the farm at one time (very understocked i know), 24 cubicles on one side of the shed and straw bedded are on the other side.
Wondering whats the viability of buying in 24 fleckvieh heifers, average 6500-7000 litres a year and you have a good solid beef calf aswell, milk solids would be around 3.4% protein and 4.1% butterfat, assuming milk price would generally be around 35cent for this but will assume worst case scenario of base price in local coop of 31c/l, milk alone would be worth €2000 and keeping the calf to a year to keep the rough ground grazed, would be worth around 600-800 local mart, meaning 2600 per cow per year over 24 cows would be 62,400 income, second hand parlour off donedeal and new bulk tank, youd be in the door of dairy for 40,000 and you'd have that paid off in 3-4 years, we do our own slurry, contractor would do silage, we have a pit for first cut also could put second cut in there too and take a few paddocks for bales.

This is just hypothesising not a definitive plan just wondering would it work

Also has anyone ever used the injection to bring cattle into heat all at once AI them all on the one day that you could calve them all on the one day and would save a lot of long nights, same injection given to young heifers if they have been bulled

_Brian · 17-01-2021 9:46pm

Will milk collection be an issue ??

Obviously it’s all artics now so you’d need space for that. But I’ve been told that they aren’t taking on small suppliers as they don’t want loads of small stops.

jaymla627 · 17-01-2021 10:00pm

_Brian wrote: »

Will milk collection be an issue ??

Obviously it’s all artics now so you’d need space for that. But I’ve been told that they aren’t taking on small suppliers as they don’t want loads of small stops.

It’s only logically to be fair, with glanbia they almost entirely operate owner driven lorries and supply the tank, with a fixed rate paid per litre delivered to factory, the lad that collects here once he gets into oct/nov has to do 10 plus stops to fill a tanker, and once dec hits could be 15, you can’t run a artic around the countryside at that craic

greysides · 17-01-2021 10:07pm

Ford4life wrote: »

Also has anyone ever used the injection to bring cattle into heat all at once AI them all on the one day that you could calve them all on the one day and would save a lot of long nights, same injection given to young heifers if they have been bulled

Works better on heifers than cows. More variable response.

Calving 'everything' on the one day sounds great in theory, but in practice there's limits.... help to cope, availability of suitable housing, one big batch of calves going through all stages together...
It's isn't going to be like that anyway. Even with heifers, some will repeat. Admittedly, the heats will be synchronised, to a point, but...

There's a different protocol for cows, but 'all in the one day' isn't achievable.

ruwithme · 17-01-2021 10:09pm

God be with the old days,tractor &tank arriving same time everyday,lads carting cans &tanks to the creamery.

Do i hear a few groans??

tanko · 17-01-2021 10:15pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

It’s only logically to be fair, with glanbia they almost entirely operate owner driven lorries and supply the tank, with a fixed rate paid per litre delivered to factory, the lad that collects here once he gets into oct/nov has to do 10 plus stops to fill a tanker, and once dec hits could be 15, you can’t run a artic around the countryside at that craic

I think i remember being told that the Glanbia lorry around here could do 30 - 40 stops to fill it in quiet times.

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:15pm

lalababa wrote: »

If you can get a contract and suitable collection days then nothing wrong with 20 to 30 cows.I'd let the calves go at 3 weeks and give the extra time & fodder to the cows! Rough ground...? Let the cows on it/ Change/work it to meadow or lease it out and rent silage/grazing ground.
Know nothing bout induced cycling &#55357;&#56898;

I'd be keeping the calves because currently we are keeping 19 suckler cows and their calves on the 35 acres without any fertilizer spreading at all even through the droughts the past 2 years and the grass would still nearly outgrow them, so to have good quality of grass you'd want to spread a small bit anyway, its not very rough tbh kind of half rock half grass, in the future i will reclaim it hopefully, access wouldnt be great to rent it out to a fella as they would have to go though all our fields to get to it so its not really possible, with the calves I would rear them inside for the first month, put them in the field closest to the yard, bit of ration every day and then once theyre off milk send them down to the 'rough' fields and then bit of ration when I would go down to collect the cows for milking, wouldnt take much time at all, with the 12 acres we cut at the moment twice can also cut the 8 acres so would have more than enough silage ground, closed off on all sides with grazing ground unless we cross cows over a busy main road which may be possible down the line if I do expand to 50/60 cows but for the moment i wouldnt risk it

Birdnuts · 17-01-2021 10:22pm

Has anyone looked in the economics of Dairy goats?? The reason I ask is that half the family and friends appear to be switching to it for various "health" reasons and there certainly seems to be more of it on offer in major supermarkets

davidk1394 · 17-01-2021 10:26pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Has anyone looked in the economics of Dairy goats?? The reason I ask is that half the family and friends appear to be switching to it for various "health" reasons and there certainly seems to be more of it on offer in major supermarkets

We were going to do it here a few years ago. There is a market but it's niche. Unless you process it yourself Glenisk is the only creamery that will buy it. Also there is no market for the male goats. They have to be kept in nearly all year round. You'll have to deliver the milk also.

Base price · 17-01-2021 10:27pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Has anyone looked in the economics of Dairy goats?? The reason I ask is that half the family and friends appear to be switching to it for various "health" reasons and there certainly seems to be more of it on offer in major supermarkets

Do milking goats not be kept indoor a lot of the time cause they won't eat grass in a field as they are browsers rather than grazers.
Edit to add - zero grazers are used to bring the grass into the sheds.

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:30pm

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I'd say it would all depend on your lifestyle, it would be a no no if you have an off farm job. Otherwise I wouldn't rule out a new milking machine and you could price one and see is there grants available. I've a neighbour who bit the bullet and done it, all second hand stuff, he bought in dairy heifers as calves, I know he was picking them up for less than €100 each!! and yes it was a bit of a gamble as the EBI numbers were unknown.
He had Suckler stock to sell, the cows were not too old and averaged €1000 + the Weanlen off them that year so he brought in a load of capital from the Sucklers.
I think the biggest issue he had was from the second hand milking machine and regretted not going new as he could have gotten a grant.
afaik the fleckvieh isn't all sunshine as they can be bad tempered, eat as much as a suckler and are a bigger cow. I would think you'd be better off with the British Friesian as the bull calf is still valuable unlike those jersey type yolks.
I wouldn't worry about holding size as once you are up and running you can always keep an eye out for another farm to rent.

Have seen second hand 6 or 8 unit parlours on donedeal for around €5k, do fine for a year or two kind of thing, then in a few years id go all out with a new 60 cow cubicle shed and a fancy new milking parlour, 60 cows would be more than enough for 35 acres grazing once i reclaim the rough land, its just as a cheap way to get into the industry without a hole pile of debt incase **** did hit the fan! Plenty of farmers up to their eyeballs in debt as they had to keep up with the neighbours and take on the rented land nearby, buy another 80 cows and then employ a fella to milk them! Makes no sense to me. Suckler cows we have and their calves would cover the majority of the cost of the heifers and may even have a bit of change in the pocket after selling them, quite surprised about some of them being aggressive as i heard they were a very docile animal, i was planning on them as they were more like a suckler tbh, have a calf worth a decent bit at the end of it but now id be more inclined to the british friesen if they really are bad tempered, fairly closed off on each side unless we cross a busy main road which would make it awkward for expansion but might be manageable down the line

_Brian · 17-01-2021 10:34pm

ruwithme wrote: »

God be with the old days,tractor &tank arriving same time everyday,lads carting cans &tanks to the creamery.

Do i hear a few groans??

Crosskeys in Cavan has a stream of wee suppliers arriving in the morning with mobile tanks behind cars and tractors to meet the lorry to lift the milk. It’s the only place in Cavan I know of that this is happening

_Brian · 17-01-2021 10:35pm

davidk1394 wrote: »

We were going to do it here a few years ago. There is a market but it's niche. Unless you process it yourself Glenisk is the only creamery that will buy it. Also there is no market for the male goats. They have to be kept in nearly all year round. You'll have to deliver the milk also.

Ye.
If your not near glenisk it’s a non runner.

Birdnuts · 17-01-2021 10:43pm

davidk1394 wrote: »

We were going to do it here a few years ago. There is a market but it's niche. Unless you process it yourself Glenisk is the only creamery that will buy it. Also there is no market for the male goats. They have to be kept in nearly all year round. You'll have to deliver the milk also.

A bit like Big dairy so;) - I see what your saying alright in terms of processors(though I noticed in Dunnes the last day that they have an own brand that appears to be processed in Donegal

)

trg · 17-01-2021 10:43pm

Fair play OP

What's your SFP?

What cost per litre would you be projecting?

Only wondering would a slightly more intensive effort at the sucklers yield as much in your pocket at the end of the year?

Obviously if you don't want to farm the sucklers any more then good look to them.

I'm only probing what will put most money in your pocket for your time

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:45pm

staples7 wrote: »

Nice plan and I think you need to be optimistic in farming. With smaller herds unless your working off farm also then managing outgoings is extremely important. You calculate 62k income but have you worked out costs. Feed, fertiliser, vets, breakdowns, contractors? Again not criticism but once you go in with eyes open.

We’re milking just over 110 and whatever is left over almost certainly has to go straight back in

A quick few calculations on a napkin kind of job 😂
Around 5,000 for silage, around 7,400 of fertilizer would be the absolute maximum that would be spent on that, hopefully wouldnt need the vet but well say the vet once a year per cow, 2400, currently running a ford 7810, ford 4000 with loader, massey ferguson 35 and a recent addition of a JCB 412S farmmaster so very little to go wrong with them touch wood, we'll say 3000 in parts though, tis around 450kg of ration per cow per lactation isnt it? If so that would be working off the pricing of bags of ration being €9 that would equate to 4,320 but buying in bulk would help bring the cost down, 10,000 in bank repayments, any few surprises or machinery that may need to be bought, 8,000 would bring it up to 40,120 leaving me with roughly 22k, give or take a few thousand as these figures are rough as a badgers arse, money would be going back into the farm and hopefully in a few years I would put up a 60 cow cubicle shed and a shiny new milking parlour, want to get in cheap first and see how it goes for the first year or two, fairly good at managing the grassland with the sucklers but with milking cattle it would be a different story so would act as a training period for the first couple years, plus if the arse does fall out of the dairy industry there are a lot of fellas that will get burned badly, wasnt so long ago the milk price fell to 19c/l my father was telling me

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:47pm

_Brian wrote: »

Will milk collection be an issue ??

Obviously it’s all artics now so you’d need space for that. But I’ve been told that they aren’t taking on small suppliers as they don’t want loads of small stops.

Thats what my father said too when I mentioned it to him, right off a busy main road so that might be an advantage, but this is just me half thinking out a plan and getting opinions on it, nothing definite about it 👍

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:49pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

It’s only logically to be fair, with glanbia they almost entirely operate owner driven lorries and supply the tank, with a fixed rate paid per litre delivered to factory, the lad that collects here once he gets into oct/nov has to do 10 plus stops to fill a tanker, and once dec hits could be 15, you can’t run a artic around the countryside at that craic

Drinagh coop would be the milk collector around here, that would be some pain in the hole for the lad collecting i must say, around my area lot of big farmers so they would be going past my place anyhow right off a main road so thats an advantage i would say, thankfully not down a beaten track
😂

JustJoe7240 · 17-01-2021 10:52pm

Ford4life wrote: »

Farming 60 acres, 12 acres silage and the rest grazing, 8 acres over the road, 35 acres grazing at home,10 acres is a bit rough but would do fine for calves (5 acres waste ground off silage ground) Currently have 19 sucklers, their calves and a few bought in calves, generally around 45 animals between cows calves everything on the farm at one time (very understocked i know), 24 cubicles on one side of the shed and straw bedded are on the other side.
Wondering whats the viability of buying in 24 fleckvieh heifers, average 6500-7000 litres a year and you have a good solid beef calf aswell, milk solids would be around 3.4% protein and 4.1% butterfat, assuming milk price would generally be around 35cent for this but will assume worst case scenario of base price in local coop of 31c/l, milk alone would be worth €2000 and keeping the calf to a year to keep the rough ground grazed, would be worth around 600-800 local mart, meaning 2600 per cow per year over 24 cows would be 62,400 income, second hand parlour off donedeal and new bulk tank, youd be in the door of dairy for 40,000 and you'd have that paid off in 3-4 years, we do our own slurry, contractor would do silage, we have a pit for first cut also could put second cut in there too and take a few paddocks for bales.

This is just hypothesising not a definitive plan just wondering would it work

Also has anyone ever used the injection to bring cattle into heat all at once AI them all on the one day that you could calve them all on the one day and would save a lot of long nights, same injection given to young heifers if they have been bulled

Nothing more to add to what has been posted really, as for synchronisation. In theory it's possible but realistically that would never happen. Did calving on a large dairy farm. Had the numbers you're talking about regularly.it wasn't fun, and they had the facilities to handle it

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:54pm

greysides wrote: »

Works better on heifers than cows. More variable response.

Calving 'everything' on the one day sounds great in theory, but in practice there's limits.... help to cope, availability of suitable housing, one big batch of calves going through all stages together...
It's isn't going to be like that anyway. Even with heifers, some will repeat. Admittedly, the heats will be synchronised, to a point, but...

There's a different protocol for cows, but 'all in the one day' isn't achievable.

24 would be manageable enough I would of thought, I would have my father around the place aswell to give a hand if needs be, with the synchronised breeding then in theory if 12 repeat, we could easily keep 12 cows in the straw bedded part of our current shed until they do calve, and we can split the cubicle shed down the middle to have half and half for once they do calve and keep them seperate from the ones that repeated so theres no sorting off ones that havent and bolloxing around at milking time

Mongfinder General · 17-01-2021 10:55pm

There’s a market out there for pasteurised homogenised and non homogenised milk in a glass bottle. Try finding one in Dublin. No chance. Ardfert and Dunlavin fairies are the only two I know of but they only sell in their local area.

Water John · 17-01-2021 10:55pm

You should be able to pick up a second hand parlour for something over €1K and it will do the job for years fine.
At least with Drinagh you'll have one of the best prices in the country, but you'd need to check early that they'll collect.

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 10:59pm

ruwithme wrote: »

God be with the old days,tractor &tank arriving same time everyday,lads carting cans &tanks to the creamery.

Do i hear a few groans??

Much simpler times, single cluster portable milking machine if ya were lucky and bucket and stool for most people my father says, no brakes or a bit in the tractor, be parked facing down the hill also or have a screwdriver handy for starting them 😃

Mooooo · 17-01-2021 11:02pm

If your in west cork, go away and work on a dairy farm if you can this spring it will give you an idea of what involved. If you cant do that approach the coop/ teagasc and ask if there is a local discussion group that wouldn't mind you attending a few meetings.
Tbh I'd stay away from the fleckveih, they'll eat all round them and hol/ fr will beat them for milk. Starting out with a young herd yields will be closer to between 5 and 6k litres. Something to consider would be just have cows, buy in replacements as needed, would simplify the system. What you need to know is how much grass you can grow and then you'll know how many cows you can comfortably carry.
Plenty knowledgeable lads down there so a discussion group would be a good place to start

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 11:03pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Has anyone looked in the economics of Dairy goats?? The reason I ask is that half the family and friends appear to be switching to it for various "health" reasons and there certainly seems to be more of it on offer in major supermarkets

Would be around a 3-4 hour drive one way with a car from here, nevermind with a few thousand litres of milk behind ya 😂 how expensive would it be to get all the processing equipment required?

Grueller · 17-01-2021 11:04pm

I have done similar to what you are talking about. 60 cows on 35 acres. New 12 unit parlour. Reduced sucklers from 85 to 40 to use an outfarm.
Here is my advice and I am assuming that you are under 25. Go away and get a qualification that you can work part time with good earning potential. I manage the farm with no help, but contract out most machinery work. I work off farm 10 hours per week but earn more than full time the average industrial wage from that. This makes the farm seriously viable as I can take minimal drawings from it. Spend 5-10 years getting to that position.

Water John · 17-01-2021 11:07pm

Ford4life wrote: »

Would be around a 3-4 hour drive one way with a car from here, nevermind with a few thousand litres of milk behind ya 😂 how expensive would it be to get all the processing equipment required?

Maybe check with Glenilen if they'd be interested in using a goat or sheep milk supply, if you're open to the idea.

Ford4life · 17-01-2021 11:17pm

trg wrote: »

Fair play OP

What's your SFP?

What cost per litre would you be projecting?

Only wondering would a slightly more intensive effort at the sucklers yield as much in your pocket at the end of the year?

Obviously if you don't want to farm the sucklers any more then good look to them.

I'm only probing what will put most money in your pocket for your time

Sucklers are being forgotten by all the politicians that were promising us money, we keep our costs to an absolute minimum and still lose money on them, and thats without even accounting for the hours worked per year, cost of keeping a cow for the year is about €600 for us, sell the calf at 9 months and they tend to make 800/900, this means a rough profit of 5700 at 300 profit per head, this sounds great until you factor in the cost of keeping the calf at a couple hundred, insurance for the farm of 2000, diesel of around 500, contractor 2000, ration of around 1000 and general expenses of 500 for the odd parts needed that leaves you with a net loss of 300 euro and thats best case scenario &#55357;&#56834; sucklers are a waste of time unless we start getting €4 a kilo in the mart but even then a decent dairy bull at the same age wouldnt be far off making the same and you get the milk from the cow to sell also
Forgot SFP, would be around 5k but still not near enough to make it worth the time involved in them, that would work out at paying yourself €4.70 for every hour you work, any bottom level job would be a tenner an hour and no risk involved, cow dies thats €800 down the drain, calf dies thats a waste of €600 keeping the cow for the year
Forgot to mention the cost per litre but income would be 62k roughly, total costs would be in the region of 40,000 leaving 22k profit roughly

Viability of small dairy farm

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