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Deirim or Deareann me?

  • 25-07-2018 3:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭


    Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

    Deirim or Deireann mé

    Deirimid or Deireann muid

    Dúramar or Dúirt muid

    Or are both forms acceptable?

    There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

    But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

    To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭quenching


    David Webb wrote: »
    It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

    But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

    To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.

    Thanks David, I should have specified it’s 1st year Junior Cycle, Dublin if relevant, so I’m not sure which dialect they use! And I’m getting conflicting opinions from several sources.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭quenching


    David Webb wrote: »
    If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair

    Thanks for that, it also has a handy phone app, as favoured by teenagers!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Quenching, you can also listen to the pronunciation of most words on that site - and you can choose Munster, Connacht or Ulster pronunciation. You can get the audio pronunciations on your phone too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭boardise


    test


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    quenching wrote: »
    Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

    Deirim or Deireann mé

    Deirimid or Deireann muid

    Dúramar or Dúirt muid

    Or are both forms acceptable?

    There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”

    Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.


    Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.


    If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.


    These are correct:


    Present
    deirim
    deireann tú
    deireann sé
    deirimíd
    deireann sibh
    deirid siad


    Past
    duart
    dúraís
    duairt sé
    dúramair
    dúrúir
    dúradar

    Future
    déarfad
    déarfair
    déarfaidh sé
    déarfaimíd
    déarfaibh sibh
    déarfaid siad

    Conditional
    déarfainn
    déarfá
    déarfadh sé
    déarfaimís
    déarfadh sibh
    déarfaidís


    Past habitual
    deirinn
    deirthá
    deireadh sé
    deirimís
    deireadh sibh
    deiridís


    We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    David Webb wrote: »
    Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.


    If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.


    These are correct:


    Present
    deirim
    deireann tú
    deireann sé
    deirimíd
    deireann sibh
    deirid siad


    Past
    duart
    dúraís
    duairt sé
    dúramair
    dúrúir
    dúradar

    Future
    déarfad
    déarfair
    déarfaidh sé
    déarfaimíd
    déarfaibh sibh
    déarfaid siad

    Conditional
    déarfainn
    déarfá
    déarfadh sé
    déarfaimís
    déarfadh sibh
    déarfaidís


    Past habitual
    deirinn
    deirthá
    deireadh sé
    deirimís
    deireadh sibh
    deiridís


    We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.

    Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the pure language.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the real language.
    Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    No, native speakers are not a category of their own. If you're learning French, you aim to learn it as French people speak it, right? There is no point learning Irish if you feel such contempt for native speakers of the language.

    Níl an ceart agat, a DS. Ní catagóir fé leith na cainnteóirí dúchais! Dá mb'í an Fhrainncís a bheadh á foghlaim agat, do dhéanfá do dhícheall í dh'fhoghlaim go díreach mar a labhraid na Franncaigh í, nách ea? Má tá oiread san mímheas agat ar chainnteóirí dúchais na Gaelainne, cad é mar obair duit í dh'fhoghlaim in ao' chor?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.

    In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    They are trying to standardise the writing of the language so as to make it simpler.

    Mar sin, bíonn an caighdeán in úsáid sna scoileanna


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing


    The teachers have no right to tell the children to use a caighdeán made up by learners in Dublin.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    To be fair, the official standard is a handy catch-all for State Exams and third level exams. And the French comparison might not be a great one, considering how they've damaged their regional dialects and langues d"oïl over the years as well! But I do disagree with learners getting punished for using their canúint of choice in written exams.

    Some of it, I suppose, can be justified by critique of the register of language. Something can be perfectly acceptable in colloquial conversation, or on social media, or in prose, but may still be considered crude or vulgar or inappropriate in other scenarios.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

    It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

    As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:
    People who never heard a word of Irish spoken go and learn a little Irish, and then, the moment they think they understand a little of the language, they proceed to explain all about it to those who have been speaking it all their lives. They would not dare to do that with regard to French, or with regard to any other language which was foreign to them. It is a sad thing to see the Irish language at the mercy of such people.

    At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Why should Cork Irish have been imposed on learners in Waterford or Conamara or Donegal, any more than the Caighdeán Oifigiúil? We'd still be having the same arguments today, but maybe with one or two happier counties.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Cork Irish is closer than any other Irish to the Irish of the poetry of the 17th and 18th centuries, but now, with few speakers in Cork, it would be hard to install as a standard. They ought to pick Conemara Irish, exactly as it is spoken, as the standard and as the largest dialect, and write that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    The hatred of the Gaelthacht is pronounced in the Irish learning community - because they resent the greater proficiency of the Gaelthacht. I was told on the Acmhainn mailing list (ultimately part of Foras na G) by one person:
    Ní ghéillim don tuairim nach bhfuil focal ná nath Gaeilge bailí murar chualathas é i bportach nó ar chladach.

    These guys are openly contemptuous of the Gaelthacht natives - not even disguising their view that they are just "boggers" and so they won't accept their Irish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    David Webb wrote: »
    No, Insect Overlord, a handy catch-all for exams could have picked a real Gaelthacht dialect. In fact Cork Irish was regarded as prestige dialect until the CO was brought in - and James Dillon leader of FG protested in the Dáil at the idea of the devising of a so-called standard by a handful of people that wasn't linked to what was considered good Irish in the Gaelthacht. Right from the beginning this was viewed as wrong.

    It is certainly not that an teanga bheó is crude and vulgar - and some made-up thing made up by LEARNERS in DUBLIN is "high-style Irish". The CO is just plain wrong. Read the words of Peadar Ua Laoghaire and point to me the crudity and the vulgarity. Right from the beginning an arrogant bunch of learners have sought to take control of the language and they brutally kicked the language's native speakers to one side.

    As Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote in 1915:



    At this point, the Irish language movement should be seen for what they are - anti-Irish.

    Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leat. Tá Gaeilge dhúchasach na Gaeltachta níos saibhre, níos deise agus i bhfad níos fearr ná Gaeilge nua na caithrach. Ach, cén fáth gur tháinig an caighdeán ar an saol? Mar bhí lucht na gaeilge taobh amuigh des na gaeltachtaí mí-shásta leis an éagsúlacht go léir i dtaobh na gaeilge de ar fud na tíre.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Tá an ceart agat, a DS -- nílid na canúintí beó róchóngarach dá chéile, agus b'fhéidir go raibh a lán diospóireachta i gcónaí i measc na n-aistritheóirí i dtaobh cad iad na fuirmeacha is cirte agus cad ab iad na haistriúcháin is feárr le húsáid go mór mór in obair aistriúcháin an Oireachtais. Agus nuair a thugas freagra don phostaer bunaidh (the OP) do thugas fé ndeara ná raibh aon tsuím aige in sna canúintíbh agus gur dóichí gur scoláire é agus ceist aige a chur anso ar an gCaighdéan, agus mar sin do sheólas é chun Teanglann (suíomh go bhfuil na fuirmeacha 'caighdeanacha' mar dhea ann, agus mar sin na fuirmeacha is oiriúnaí dho).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

    I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

    The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
    I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
    I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

    Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
    Thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
    I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
    I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

    Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
    Thanks.


    I would recommend Myles Dillon's Teach Yourself Irish, 1961 version, and then to start on a real work, Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Aesop a Tháinig go hÉirinn - Aesop's fables, which are all short and easy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    The most tiresom thing in the world is a learner s***ing on other learners and using native speakers to justify their opinions.

    I know loads of learners of Irish and I work in the Gaeltacht. I have never come accross any antagonism between both groups in real life. People from the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, have little dificulty with standardised Irish and recognise it as being a useful medium for official texts.

    The only concern I have ever encountered in the Gaeltacht is that the local dialect should be accepted as equally valid in exams.


    Imreóir2, it may depend on the Gaeltacht. Which Gaeltacht do you work in? Maybe in Conemara they view the CO as closest to Galway Irish and so they're happy with it? I've been told by numerous people in Muskerry that the CO is rubbish - and that they spoilt the language when they brought in an artificial standard. Clearly there is a range of view on this even in the Gaeltacht itself. And no - real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    I am in my 60's and I am going to try and learn a bit of Irish to the point that I might be able to hold a simple conversation. My Irish is very poor and while I loved it in Primary school a new teacher arrived and beat the love of it out of us. This was in the late 50's when they could do that.
    I struggled with the tenses but had quite a lot of words.
    I would love to give it another go now that I'm retired.

    Could anyone recommend a simple book that would help me?
    Thanks.

    Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Taytolover, are you based in Dublin?

    N. Louth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller Returns


    N. Louth.

    Ah, right. You should see if there are maidin caifés on in your town/village. They have been springing up all over the country. Basically, a group of people meet in a cafe and converse in Irish. My father attends one every day in different parts of Dublin and many of the people who attend are beginners. My dad also teaches a class for beginners in St Enda's Park in Rathfarnham - Pádraig Pearse's old haunt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    David Webb wrote: »
    real Irish is not accepted in exams. And not a sentence of the local dialect is on the school curriculum in the Gaeltacht.

    If schools in your area are not doing this, then it should be brought up with the bord of managment. It is certainly addressed in the schools where I work.

    I know that local dialects are accepted in exams at third level, and it is my understanding that it is accepted for the leaving cert.

    Have you heard of the Polasaí Oideachais Gaeltachta? Saibhrú Teanga is going to be an important part of the school system.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Ah, right. You should see if there are maidin caifés on in your town/village. They have been springing up all over the country. Basically, a group of people meet in a cafe and converse in Irish. My father attends one every day in different parts of Dublin and many of the people who attend are beginners. My dad also teaches a class for beginners in St Enda's Park in Rathfarnham - Pádraig Pearse's old haunt.

    Thank you, I'll check that out and buy a few books to help me along.


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