Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Thread Closed  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
14-01-2020, 20:18   #31
The Student
Registered User
 
The Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 683
You have to encourage existing landlords to stay in the market while supply increases otherwise demand will continue to increase while supply decreases.

A two bed rented property may house 4 adults. If it is sold to an owner occupier it may only house two adults. Where do the other two adults go?
The Student is offline  
Advertisement
14-01-2020, 20:20   #32
Shelga
Registered User
 
Shelga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by lainey_d_123 View Post
You don't seem to understand how supply and demand works.

There are far more people looking for housing than there is housing.

It's literally that simple.

People don't rent because they think it's good value, they rent because they need somewhere to lie so they can go to work. There are loads of cabin crew and airport workers living in that area - they want a nice enough place which is handy for getting to the airport, and that's what the going rate is.
Of course I understand how supply and demand works, I'm not a simpleton.

If you read my question you would see I am trying to understand why the supply level is so abysmal, compared to similar sized cities. It seems there are many factors.
Shelga is offline  
14-01-2020, 20:27   #33
Heres Johnny
Registered User
 
Heres Johnny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,902
Not building into the sky in Dublin is an absolute crime for generations of politicians. Would solve the lot but somehow its still not happening.
You're more likely to see a tall building, by tall I mean 4 or floors, of apartments in the suburbs than in the city.
Heres Johnny is online now  
14-01-2020, 20:27   #34
MSVforever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by lainey_d_123 View Post
Have you been recently? Renting in Berlin is very expensive now, not that far off Dublin prices.

It's also not Germany's biggest industrial city where all the jobs are concentrated. There are loads of other big cities with jobs .- Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, Cologne. Not the case in Ireland.
Munich is even worse than Dublin and it's only the capital of Bavaria....lol...
MSVforever is offline  
14-01-2020, 20:31   #35
lainey_d_123
Registered User
 
lainey_d_123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelga View Post
Of course I understand how supply and demand works, I'm not a simpleton.

If you read my question you would see I am trying to understand why the supply level is so abysmal, compared to similar sized cities. It seems there are many factors.
But you're saying things like 'who thinks these are good value?' as if you think people are choosing to pay that much. That's just what happens when there isn't enough housing stock.

Yes there are many factors. Not building up rather than out and the stall in construction during the crisis certainly didn't help anything.
lainey_d_123 is offline  
Advertisement
14-01-2020, 20:34   #36
Padre_Pio
Registered User
 
Padre_Pio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by lainey_d_123 View Post
You don't seem to understand how supply and demand works.

There are far more people looking for housing than there is housing.

It's literally that simple.
The recession killed many factories and businesses that sustained local towns around Ireland. Endless examples of this.

All these workers, and all the people who depended on the workers wages for jobs now have no jobs.
So there's f*ck all work in rural Ireland. All people of working age are forced to move to cities for work and education. Massive influx.

To many, city life is better than country life, especially if you have no kids, so employers also move to cities to attract young workers, not back to the parishes in Carlow and Leitrim, which are empty anyways, so this fuels more migration.

At the same time, house building stopped for about 5 years. Then a bunch of new housing regulations were introduced. Then a bunch of rental regulations too, and a bunch of regulations from the Central Bank. In the long term these will be good, short term not so good.

As a result, there's f*ck all housing stock, it's more expensive to build a house, planning requirements are stricter and landlords are leaving the market in droves. People can't afford to buy so they rent. Pressure is massive and increased by government programs. Then you have vulture funds and speculators influencing conditions. Now people can't afford to rent.

All this is very general but IMO it's a good 30second explanation.

Also, it's mainly restricted to cities and their hinterland.
You could buy a street in Leitrim for the cost of a 3 bed semi in a nice part of Dublin, but who wants to live in Leitrim.

Last edited by Padre_Pio; 14-01-2020 at 20:40.
Padre_Pio is offline  
(2) thanks from:
14-01-2020, 20:50   #37
Donald Trump
Registered User
 
Donald Trump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav010 View Post
Simple really, without a financial incentive to invest, there is no investment in rental property. REITS may be interested in investing in large cities, they certainly are not outside them.

I must admit, I now get a kick when I see posts like yours decrying “amateur landlords” in derogatory tones, you get what you deserve when large investment funds buy out complete developments before they are finished so they can rent at the highest market price, and automatically increase year on year. Then take their profits out of the country. That’ll show those pesky small time amateur landlords, oh hold on, that means you pay higher rents. Nice.

But you are correct in one sense, the incentives like high yields and capital appreciation should not be guaranteed, but they need to be a good possibility if you want to encourage investment and increase availability. Strange how at a time when rents are at an all time high, property values have increased, yet investors are leaving, go figure.

Rents are set by what the renters are willing to pay compared to other available opions. Simple as that. Unless you are getting into a monopoly situation, and a fund buying a large block of apartments is a whole world removed from that. Supply will also effect it but who owns the property will not have as much of an effect except that perhaps a more efficient landlord might be willing to provide it at a lower rate than it would be worth an amateur's effort. The effect of a Euro taken out in profit by an investment fund is no different to a Euro taken out in profit from a foreign company manufacturing here.

Last edited by Donald Trump; 14-01-2020 at 21:21.
Donald Trump is offline  
14-01-2020, 21:07   #38
Shelga
Registered User
 
Shelga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by lainey_d_123 View Post
But you're saying things like 'who thinks these are good value?' as if you think people are choosing to pay that much. That's just what happens when there isn't enough housing stock.

Yes there are many factors. Not building up rather than out and the stall in construction during the crisis certainly didn't help anything.
I didn't say "who thinks these are good value"- I said no one of sound mind would think they were good value- ie, we can all agree rent in Dublin is extortionate.

I am fully aware that people are paying these rents because they have no choice.

Why is supply low?

So far, main factors seem to be: not building up, population growth in Dublin in last 10-15 years, and it not being appealing to be a landlord.

Why is it so expensive and cumbersome to build medium rise apartments in the city? Who has the power to change this?
Shelga is offline  
14-01-2020, 21:19   #39
Padre_Pio
Registered User
 
Padre_Pio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelga View Post
I didn't say "who thinks these are good value"- I said no one of sound mind would think they were good value- ie, we can all agree rent in Dublin is extortionate.

I am fully aware that people are paying these rents because they have no choice.

Why is supply low?

So far, main factors seem to be: not building up, population growth in Dublin in last 10-15 years, and it not being appealing to be a landlord.

Why is it so expensive and cumbersome to build medium rise apartments in the city? Who has the power to change this?
The government.

Remember that 70-80%% of voters are homeowners who have seen their house value increase dramatically in the last few years. Add to that we have record employment and wage growth. If I just bought a home yesterday after struggling for years, its in my best interest that my house appreciates and supply stays low.

If you own a home right now and have private health insurance, you are immune to the two biggest issues this election.
Why wouldn't you vote for FG or FF? No political party is going to pay your childcare or mortgage (although FG have made childcare slightly more bearable) The best you can hope for is the current system keeps going and we don't get a socialist government that lowers the value of your assets.
Padre_Pio is offline  
Advertisement
14-01-2020, 21:40   #40
DubCount
Registered User
 
DubCount's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 435
OP. The cost of buying property in Dublin is expensive, but is kept under control by Central Bank mortgage rules. Requirements for high deposits and restrictions on how much people can borrow relative to their income is stopping expensive becoming insane.

The rental market is a different matter. Increases in population above housing supply, people who cant afford to buy and look the rent in stead, and government policy to use the rental market to meet social housing requirements. All this means demand for rental is going through the roof. Government policy is to control rental inflation with price control. This doesn't solve the problem though, because it doesn't create more supply to meet all that demand.

If you want to address rental costs in Dublin, build more property, and make eviction of non-paying tenants quicker and easier. Unfortunately, there is not one politician who will knock on your door, who agrees with that. All of them -FG/FF/Lab/SF/PBP/Greens/SD/Independents are of the mistaken belief that rent controls alone is how to deal with rent inflation. It doesn't matter who you vote for - nobody is suggesting what really needs to be done.
DubCount is offline  
(3) thanks from:
14-01-2020, 21:42   #41
Dav010
Registered User
 
Dav010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Trump View Post
Rents are set by what the renters are willing to pay compared to other available opions. Simple as that. Unless you are getting into a monopoly situation, and a fund buying a large block of apartments is a whole world removed from that. Supply will also effect it but who owns the property will not have as much of an effect except that perhaps a more efficient landlord might be willing to provide it at a lower rate than it would be worth an amateur's effort. The effect of a Euro taken out in profit by an investment fund is no different to a Euro taken out in profit from a foreign company manufacturing here.
So you are saying the tenants are actually setting the market rent? For many, there are no other available options, so the rental price set by the market is what they have to pay, not what they choose to pay, where have you been for the last 5 years?

If the small, amateur investors, as you call them, leave the market, that will leave a couple of investment funds as the majority landlords, I wouldn't say we are a whole world removed from that right now, in fact, I suspect those large investors are the main source of new rentals coming onto the Dublin market.

Investment companies require profits small time investors may settle for rent covering a mortgage and are more likely to have some personal contact with a tenant. A Reit on the other hand which buys whole new complexes will be able to set rents at the highest level as they are new to the market, and their business model is based on maximising yield by increasing rents to the highest amount at defined intervals allowed by the RTA. Expecting a REIT to give you a lower rate, because they are more efficient is naive.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...35996?mode=amp

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...tion-1.3995574

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ment-1.3991919

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...woes-1.3950625

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...heme-1.3922333

Comparing a vulture/investment fund to a manufacturing company is beyond comprehension. A property investment company requires limited staff to oversee their properties, many of the staff can be based in London or the US, manufacturers/IT employ large numbers of staff, I assume you are referring to Intel or Google etc who employ thousands?

Last edited by Dav010; 14-01-2020 at 21:47.
Dav010 is online now  
(3) thanks from:
14-01-2020, 22:34   #42
Mad_maxx
Registered User
 
Mad_maxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 4,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius34 View Post
The price for property in Dublin is very normal for that size and economy level, while the renting is absolutely to high.
The main factor for the very high rents is due to the very low supplies of residential property over the past 10 years (due to residential construction crisis), especially for such a young city with growing population and booming economy.
To make things worse, private landlords are highly taxed, typically 50-52% on the profit, I don’t know any other country with that high taxation for private landlords. And more than that property should be supplied furnished, whereas in many European countries it’s common to rent unfurnished (at least Denmark and Germany from my own experience).
rogue tenants are not tolerated in germany either.
Mad_maxx is online now  
14-01-2020, 22:47   #43
Mad_maxx
Registered User
 
Mad_maxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 4,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubCount View Post
OP. The cost of buying property in Dublin is expensive, but is kept under control by Central Bank mortgage rules. Requirements for high deposits and restrictions on how much people can borrow relative to their income is stopping expensive becoming insane.

The rental market is a different matter. Increases in population above housing supply, people who cant afford to buy and look the rent in stead, and government policy to use the rental market to meet social housing requirements. All this means demand for rental is going through the roof. Government policy is to control rental inflation with price control. This doesn't solve the problem though, because it doesn't create more supply to meet all that demand.

If you want to address rental costs in Dublin, build more property, and make eviction of non-paying tenants quicker and easier. Unfortunately, there is not one politician who will knock on your door, who agrees with that. All of them -FG/FF/Lab/SF/PBP/Greens/SD/Independents are of the mistaken belief that rent controls alone is how to deal with rent inflation. It doesn't matter who you vote for - nobody is suggesting what really needs to be done.
the left spend an inordinate amount of time being concerned that others are making money , in this case landlords , therefore the goal of all these new regulations is primarily to hurt landlord rather than help tenants.

the media is entirely left wing in this country and have a major hard on for landlords , FF and FG want to be on side with the media so while knowing damn well that the policies introduced this past five years are doing more harm than good , give in to left wing politicians , media and activists in order to have peace , weak cowardly politicians are the cause of the mess.

personally id settle for a 5% return on property if rogue tenants were dealt with properly
Mad_maxx is online now  
(3) thanks from:
14-01-2020, 22:57   #44
Donald Trump
Registered User
 
Donald Trump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav010 View Post
So you are saying the tenants are actually setting the market rent? For many, there are no other available options, so the rental price set by the market is what they have to pay, not what they choose to pay, where have you been for the last 5 years?

If the small, amateur investors, as you call them, leave the market, that will leave a couple of investment funds as the majority landlords, I wouldn't say we are a whole world removed from that right now, in fact, I suspect those large investors are the main source of new rentals coming onto the Dublin market.

Investment companies require profits small time investors may settle for rent covering a mortgage and are more likely to have some personal contact with a tenant. A Reit on the other hand which buys whole new complexes will be able to set rents at the highest level as they are new to the market, and their business model is based on maximising yield by increasing rents to the highest amount at defined intervals allowed by the RTA. Expecting a REIT to give you a lower rate, because they are more efficient is naive.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...35996?mode=amp

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...tion-1.3995574

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ment-1.3991919

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...woes-1.3950625

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...heme-1.3922333

Comparing a vulture/investment fund to a manufacturing company is beyond comprehension. A property investment company requires limited staff to oversee their properties, many of the staff can be based in London or the US, manufacturers/IT employ large numbers of staff, I assume you are referring to Intel or Google etc who employ thousands?

Beyond your comprehension maybe. Tell me how one Euro sent back by Google to HQ is distinguished from one Euro sent back by a property fund.

Are you going to rabbit on about what is done to make that Euro? That is not my point. A Euro is a Euro is a Euro. Both will leave the country. Same as a Euro you will spend on your weekend away to Paris.

I didn't bother looking at your links dude. If you think that a fragmented system of amateur landlords just wanting a free pension because they filled out some forms at a Bank back in the day, will result in cheaper living then you are deluded. As you say yourself, the amateur landlord wants their mortgage covered. The professional landlord needs their cost of capital covered. Those are not the same thing.

Why should some greedy gobshite who doesn't even understand the business get their mortgage "covered" by a renter? That is part of the problem. They want a free house to convert into a lump sum at the end. The professional investor just needs to have enough value in the house to pay off the remaining loan at the end. It is the renter who is paying the difference.


And yes, the rents are set by the renters. That is 101 supply and demand. Following your logic, sure a REIT could buy up a block of apartments in Dublin city centre and charge rent of a billion euros a year and the renters would *have* to pay them
Donald Trump is offline  
Thanks from:
14-01-2020, 23:08   #45
InstaSte
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Trump View Post
Why should there be an incentive for speculative amateur landlords.

Do you think that you should be somehow given a risk-free guaranteed return to own an asset in 30 years which will be paid back by some tenant? There are too many people out there thinking that they should be entitled to go into the bank, spend a few hours filling out a few forms, buy a house, forget about it for 30 years and then come back to sell it and keep the proceeds after some gobshite paid off their mortgage for them.

Become a landlord by all means if you have the skills, time, effort and risk management ability to make it work.


I'll agree that tenant have too many protections - in the case of those that won't pay or overhold or damage the property. But those are the rules of the game. If you can't manage by those rules in worst case scenario, then put your money elsewhere
Who said anything about risk free?

Landlords who bought apartments in Clongriffin in 2007 for €350,000 are about €100,000 in negative enquire right now, whilst paying at least half the mortgage.

Why do tenants think they should be entitled to decent rental accommodation provided by private landlords?

They should live within their means, out of the city, save up and get a mortgage like those before us.
InstaSte is online now  
Thread Closed

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search