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06-12-2018, 17:13   #466
Ursus Horribilis
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Yes he's talking bull****. I used to be a public servant myself and I know what the salary scales are like in real life. But trying to argue with people like that is like trying to play chess with a pigeon. You'll never get anywhere with them and they're never going to change their minds
Let them rant away and work themselves up into a lather because that's what they want.
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06-12-2018, 17:55   #467
Birneybau
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I've posted this before and I literally cannot be clearer. Here's the payscales, vast majority of staff below H.E.O. Grade

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2017/22.pdf
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06-12-2018, 18:38   #468
The Rape of Lucretia
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Originally Posted by Birneybau View Post
I've posted this before and I literally cannot be clearer. Here's the payscales, vast majority of staff below H.E.O. Grade

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2017/22.pdf
Within those payscale increments though lies the fundamental reason for the over-payment of civil servants. Automatic increases are against all economic sense.
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06-12-2018, 18:40   #469
1st dalkey dalkey
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We have some of the best trained nurses in the world.

Just ask the hospitals in London, Sydney and Toronto.

And of course they are all going there to avoid the high wages paid at home.

But that is only half the problem.

We also have a British Tory Party approach to housing. Our government looks after it's landlord mates, first last and always.

Lower paid workers of all kinds, public and private, are mere fodder for these new 'aristocracy'.
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06-12-2018, 20:05   #470
4ensic15
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That is categorically NOT the average wage.
the average wage of most civil and public servants is more around the 25-35K mark.

anyone on 47000 would have been promoted to senior staff officer level.

the average salary for a civil servant is NOT 47000. simple fact.

and also - davy stockbrokers?! haha they're a sham!
I don't think you know the difference between the average and the median.
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07-12-2018, 07:17   #471
nice_guy80
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I'd like to see the median salary
But it mightn't suit the narrative
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07-12-2018, 11:43   #472
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TBH, there should be a top-up for public servants working in major urban centres (Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.). I know I certainly couldn't match my Dublin salary if I lived in Donegal: the private sector factors the cost of city living into it's pay-scales so I can't see why it'd be wrong for the public sector to follow suit.

A teacher with 10 years experience on €47,133 (according to ASTI scale) is earning a really decent salary if they live in Kerry, Leitrim, Donegal etc. where a good-sized family home can be easily purchased with that salary (3.5 times salary as a mortgage rule).

In Dublin, with a decent deposit, they'd be lucky to buy a 1 bed apartment (and it probably won't be in a great area).

TBH, our rurally-based public servants are over-paid but I don't think the same can really be said of those based in Dublin.
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07-12-2018, 12:51   #473
mvl
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... I guess they are already topping up for strategic jobs they can't find suitable candidates for (such as research)

But topping up all wages is non-sense; can imagine the chaos would create.
- you can instead invest in the infrastructure to allow ppl from country side to work in/for Dublin.
- you can provide work related accommodation - in a way same as you provide social housing, means tested.
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07-12-2018, 13:29   #474
Geuze
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Originally Posted by dont bother View Post
That is categorically NOT the average wage.
the average wage of most civil and public servants is more around the 25-35K mark.

anyone on 47000 would have been promoted to senior staff officer level.

the average salary for a civil servant is NOT 47000. simple fact.

and also - davy stockbrokers?! haha they're a sham!
https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

2017 data here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...nnualdata2017/

Note earnings includes overtime and bonuses


Average earnings = 37,646

Average earnings for FT workers = 46,402
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07-12-2018, 13:31   #475
Geuze
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Originally Posted by dont bother View Post
That is categorically NOT the average wage.
the average wage of most civil and public servants is more around the 25-35K mark.

anyone on 47000 would have been promoted to senior staff officer level.

the average salary for a civil servant is NOT 47000. simple fact.

and also - davy stockbrokers?! haha they're a sham!
Average annual earnings in public admin and defence = 48,907

See sector O in the data.

Sector P, education = 42,674 (mostly PS?)

Sector Q Human health and social work = 36,313

PS earnings will be higher due to more experience, more qualifications, and higher skills, e.g. HSE doctors, etc.
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07-12-2018, 13:34   #476
ligerdub
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Originally Posted by Geuze View Post
Average annual earnings in public admin and defence = 48,907

See sector O in the data.

Sector P, education = 42,674 (mostly PS?)

Sector Q Human health and social work = 36,313

PS earnings will be higher due to more experience, more qualifications, and higher skills, e.g. HSE doctors, etc.
Fairly throwaway subjective comment. Also nice top-end example you've picked there.

Public sector earnings are dictated by whatever agreement the govt decide to implement.

Public sector workers are (primarily) not commercially driven. The pay they get is not compared to the commercial value they bring to their work, and therefore can't be compared to the private sector rationale.

You could have all sorts of people in the private sector, some of which don't have specific qualifications, but for whatever they have in the locker they manage to create significant value to the business they work for. That has a knock-on effect in terms of what an employer is willing to pay them. Skilled workers in the private sector can also scale their work up to a much bigger target market, and can therefore create a hell of a lot of money for their employer.

Last edited by ligerdub; 07-12-2018 at 13:38.
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07-12-2018, 13:37   #477
Geuze
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Originally Posted by dont bother View Post
That is categorically NOT the average wage.
the average wage of most civil and public servants is more around the 25-35K mark.

anyone on 47000 would have been promoted to senior staff officer level.

the average salary for a civil servant is NOT 47000. simple fact.

and also - davy stockbrokers?! haha they're a sham!

I don't know what the CSO mean by "Structural Earnings", but here you go:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/ear...turalearnings/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...rces2011-2014/


2014 data on median earnings

All employments = 528.81

private sector = 462.38

PS = 815.64


"The aggregate results presented in this release should not be used for detailed analysis of either the public/private pay gap or the gender pay gap, as mean or median weekly earnings do not take account of the compositional differences in education, occupation, length of service etc.

To fully understand issues relating to the composition of earnings the use of econometric analysis is the preferred approach in international literature. The CSO has begun work exploring the possibility of developing a suitable model to allow for a detailed econometric analysis based on administrative data sources.
"
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07-12-2018, 13:39   #478
Geuze
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Originally Posted by ligerdub View Post
Fairly throwaway subjective comment. Also nice top-end example you've picked there.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/ear...ydifferential/
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07-12-2018, 15:21   #479
1st dalkey dalkey
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"Sector Q Human health and social work = 36,313

PS earnings will be higher due to more experience, more qualifications, and higher skills, e.g. HSE doctors, etc."


That those with higher qualifications are paid more is true, but also means that there are many paid less, the nature of averages.

Carers, Cleaners, Porters, Security etc., all essential to running a modern hospital will be in the bottom end, paid way less then the average. Many now qualifying for supplementary welfare payments to get by.

The notion that all PS workers are on the gravy train is base stupid. It is just a handy 'divide and conquer' mechanism.
All low paid workers, public and private, need to stick together and force government action on housing.
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07-12-2018, 15:46   #480
Geuze
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Originally Posted by 1st dalkey dalkey View Post

The notion that all PS workers are on the gravy train is base stupid. It is just a handy 'divide and conquer' mechanism.
All low paid workers, public and private, need to stick together and force government action on housing.
++++100%
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