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Accidental Landlord - tenant has over stayed

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 30 Lizzie71


    So we are 5 months into this and RTB are still in the process this is soul destroying. The RTB are useless and we have no rights but someone can just live in our house rent free while we struggle to pay for them and our own 🀬🀬🀬


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭worded


    They generally do not.

    And I know of cases where that has happened.

    An overholding tenant comes home to a large agressive topless man drinking beer with his naked feet on the coffee table eating pizza and blaring heavy metal and indicates he is her new housemate.

    She moved out immediately.

    They are called professional “cuckoos” in Eastern Europe and can easily be hired there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭JustMe,K


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    So we are 5 months into this and RTB are still in the process this is soul destroying. The RTB are useless and we have no rights but someone can just live in our house rent free while we struggle to pay for them and our own ������

    I really do feel for you. A friend of mine narrowly avoided a similar situation, and it caused a lot of anxiousness and many many sleepless nights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    well i have tenant that i requested to vacate early last year as i have to sell (accidental landlord) the tenant has ignored all requests (HAP/Soc Wel) from my solicitor , ignored RTB letter of determination , ignored letter warning them the district court beckons , refuses to pay their rent and basically has told all and sundry to f off. This individual is costing me tens of thousands and it the behaviour of these type of tenants that has made landlords flee the market meaning less units to rent and leaving the decent tenants out there totally on a limb. In the mean time the dept of soc protection hides claiming they can’t discuss any details of the tenant under GDPR which is the greatest smoke screen to protect tenants. The situation is a total sham and disgrace and I warn fellow landlords this is what’s out there and what’s actually happening as there is a minority of tenants that believe they are entitled to freebies and handouts. They also believe that hardworking honest landlords that dipped their feet in the water re property investments are now the free housing association together with the government that don’t give a damn what’s actually happening in the real world .


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    The Tenant is protected.

    However, it is still your house. You can move another Tenant in unless the Lease gives her exclusive occupation.

    I have had this difficulty in the past.


    This is true. An excellent suggestion. Yes, you can move other people into the house. She won't be long moving out then. Do it immediately.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    TCM wrote: »
    An excellent suggestion.

    How would that fit with

    "allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling"


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Sorry.

    I have not responded for a while.

    The lease will determine the dwelling.

    Section 4 of the Act defines a dwelling.

    dwelling” means, subject to subsection (2), a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit and includes any building or part of a building used as a dwelling and any out office, yard, garden or other land appurtenant to it or usually enjoyed with it and, where the context so admits, includes a property available for letting but excludes a structure that is not permanently attached to the ground and a vessel and a vehicle (whether mobile or not);

    Key there is building or PART of a building. It is not true to say that evey rental of a house will grant you exclusive occupation of the entire house.

    If that is the case people would not rent rooms in a house share as they would all be entitled to the entire. Of course the lease will have to be looked at to see if this argument can be grounded on the lease.

    If it is a multi bedroomed house, and she has rented the property and has stopped paying rent a prudent landlord could seek to mitigate his losses by moving other renters into the additional rooms. Of course such renters would have to be robost individuals aware of the dispute.

    If she has a difficulty with that she has a right of redress before the RTB. Adjudication subject to appeal and thereafter the Courts on a point of law. Equity requires you to come with clean hands and it is difficult to complain when you have not paid any rent in months and have not turned up to any hearings

    What I do know for certainty is that I would rather be in the RTB saying that I moved in an additional tenant to avoid financial disaster and be faced with raising that argument as opposed to an unlawful eviction.

    If the tenant could prove that the additional tenant who moved in was rather unhygenic for example it is a far stretch to prove that the landlord did this deliberately to "evict" the tenant.

    Of Course this is all hypothetical, not legal advice and I am not advocating this approach. I am just aware of situations where it has been used.

    What is not hypothetical is that the RTB is a disaster. It should at adjudication stage allow for vexatious claims to be dismissed and for orders for overholding tenants to be drawn up immediately subject to appeal to the High Court only.

    This is required and would free up housing and bring private landlords back into the market away from Airbnb because they have zero protection at the moment.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Are you deliberately trying to confuse a house shared with a homeowner, and a tenancy?

    The two are very different.

    As the OP has stated they are pursuing a case via the RTB, it is safe to assume the RTB believe they have jurisdiction. i.e. this is not a licensee situation.

    As such your suggestion that the OP moves someone else into the house is not only daft, it's dangerous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Graham wrote: »
    Are you deliberately trying to confuse a house shared with a homeowner, and a tenancy?

    The two are very different.

    As the OP has stated they are pursuing a case via the RTB, it is safe to assume the RTB believe they have jurisdiction. i.e. this is not a licensee situation.

    As such your suggestion that the OP moves someone else into the house is not only daft, it's dangerous.

    I dont think you understand my post.

    A Licence situation is not covered by the Act or the RTB.

    It is possible to rent a room in a house as a tenant. It is possible to have similar tenants in other rooms. It happens in apartments and houses all over Dublin.

    It is possible to rent a full house as a tenant.

    The former is exclusive.

    The latter is not.

    The exclusivity is determined by the lease and evidence.

    Before you go off in a tangent based on your own misunderstanding I think you should read the posts.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    This is not a licensee situation so why are you determined to drag the thread off topic?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Graham wrote: »
    This is not a licensee situation so why are you determined to drag the thread off topic?

    I have explained it twice. I am making no reference to a licence situation.

    A Licence situation is where the Landlord is in occupation. The Landlord is not in occupation.

    I really dont know why this is so difficult to understand for you. I again suggest you read the posts in their entire.

    Lets try again.

    Ann and Barry live in a House. Ann is the Landlord. Licence situation.

    Sean rents a room in a house. Liam rents another room. The Landlord lives in another property. They are tenants. They have exlusive occupation of their rooms and the house. It is not exclusive to each other.

    For clarity. I am not discussing a licence situation. You are dragging matters off topic with a fundamental misunderstanding of the distinction and I have no idea why you introduced it as a topic for discussion.

    I really dont know how you do not understand the distinction between mutual tenancy and sole tenancy. Mutual tenants can still enjoy exclusive occupation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    Mr. Incognito - I dont know why you posted about mutual tenancy/tenants renting rooms, there is no mention by OP that this was case, it was fairly safe to assume this was as is the majority of the lettings the whole house of which the tenant would have exclusive use and right to peaceful enjoyment. So suggestions that there is any right to put an additional tenant in there would amount to the OP breaching the lease. The OP is in a bad enough situation without adding to their troubles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Im absolutely not advising it


  • Registered Users Posts: 30 Lizzie71


    Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,202 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.

    Not really. They could ignore it and you are faced with a trip to court.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 872 ✭✭✭martyoo


    I'd imagine this thread is an eye opener for a lot of people. The reality is that there are some bad landlords along with some bad tenants and currently the law doesn't protect from either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    Received letter from RTB that Determination order is issued, light at the end of the tunnel.

    hate to be a dampener- the RTB determination order is a process that most tenants that have gone this far will ignore. The RTB is utterly toothless and buys the tenant time to think about their actions..... In in the same boat and the determination order just gives me the ability to go to court. Even when you get a court order, this means zero until the courty sheriff is in receipt of same - in the mean time the landlord will be out thousands in rent, damage to their unit, legal fees, sherrifs fees etc. Chasing these low life tenants for lost rent is fruitless as well as judgement order against them is laughable ...... just be warned everyone that is an honest landlord , that tenants have 80% of the leverage in the system. The system totally favors the tenant to the detriment of the honest landlords. All I know is private honest landlords are fleeing the system and selling up re reading horror stories as in here. I am trying to sell an apartment over a year plus and the tenant won’t leave irrespective of any legal order and will only go when turned out onto the street by the sherif.....they then move onto their next victim landlord and we wonder why we have a housing problem as no landlord will let to a tenant unless they know them or they are in a top job which utterly discrimates against the honest hardworking tenants that are in the lower social strata all because the bad apples out there who believe they are entitled to screw the system are ruining it for everybody


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    martyoo wrote: »
    I'd imagine this thread is an eye opener for a lot of people. The reality is that there are some bad landlords along with some bad tenants and currently the law doesn't protect from either.

    I doubt its news to anyone.

    There are lots of laws to protect you from bad landlords and there's been loads of new ones over the past decade or so. More due aswell.

    https://www.newstalk.com/Landlords-to-face-30000-fine-for-illegal-rent-increases-under-new-laws

    I don't think there have any new ones to protect you against bad tenants. But I'm open to correction.

    Besides which the issue isn't the law. Its the length of time and cost to bring resolution, and restitution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭Evd-Burner


    beauf wrote: »
    I doubt its news to anyone.

    There are lots of laws to protect you from bad landlords and there's been loads of new ones over the past decade or so. More due aswell.

    https://www.newstalk.com/Landlords-to-face-30000-fine-for-illegal-rent-increases-under-new-laws

    I don't think there have any new ones to protect you against bad tenants. But I'm open to correction.

    Besides which the issue isn't the law. Its the length of time and cost to bring resolution, and restitution.

    To be honest I see a lot of those laws having a negative effect and pushing normal landlords out of the market because they are too afraid. Which then just compounds the problem even further!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    OP
    I skipped from page 4 or 5, as I didnt see advice of start eviction, dont bother with local papers etc, just do official formal stuff and keep any records of contacts etc, you need the person out and Id get that eviction ball rolling before the law changes.

    Start the eviction process,

    If you dont know how to do that, look it up on RTB, Im sure its still there, ring them and ask for advice if need be, but if still dont know, engage a solicitor and start the clock now.
    End of, youve done this person favours to your own detriment, you should not have, it might have been better to be rid of them sooner if they couldnt manage the rent or there was any hint of problems, that is done now, start the eviction process, if you are seen not to be serious then your intentions mean nothing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Evd-Burner wrote: »
    To be honest I see a lot of those laws having a negative effect and pushing normal landlords out of the market because they are too afraid. Which then just compounds the problem even further!


    I'm gone in June when the AirBnB laws come in to full force. The chances of a rogue tenant are pretty small but you get one and you're down tens of thousands in the current climate. I'll take the capital loss and get rid of the headache.


    This is all assuming Mrs Cogley agrees ofc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    I forgot to say she is "separated" which I know is not true but none of my business as long as she is paying the rent so she is claiming to be a lone parent with 2 kids one of which was born after they broke up.
    Report her for anything you want. If the fella is living with her, let them know he lives there. Let her know that if she's not leaving, you'll go out of your way to drain her "income".


  • Registered Users Posts: 30 Lizzie71


    Just an update we got a court date for this month, fingers crossed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    Lizzie71 wrote: »
    Just an update we got a court date for this month, fingers crossed.

    She's still there??! Jaysus


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    Wow read the whole lot I am gobsmacked people can do this.

    I think I personally would have called this person's bluff; physically removed them and faced the consequences purely on principle, even if it put me in debt for a couple of years.

    But congratulations on keeping everything above board, not much else they can do now. I wonder if the tenant knows their time is up are they more likely to trash the place tho, for no reason other than spitefulness. I hope you are inspecting the property as often as you legally can.

    Best of luck OP


  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Busterie


    You are wasting your time with the RTB they exist only to harass landlords


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    so sorry to hear OP. I eventually got my tenant out of my apartment when a date was set for court. Needless to say the apartment was thrashed and together with lost rent etc the experience cost me over €20k re legal fees , lost rent and renovation of unit. Got a buyer now.
    Re the RTB, they are very handy at issuing fines to landlords but are utterly toothless re imposing a thing but determination orders on tenants which is just a piece of paper stating you may now enter the legal process. It really is a kick the can down the road process to give the tenant more time to cogitate their position. Private landlord renting game in this country is now for mugs and only the corporates that pay low tax can play this game.
    When the likes of left wing TDs , Threshold etc hold landlord in utter contempt believing that they should bail non performing tenants out and that landlords have no property rights to sell , you know it’s time to get the hell out of the property market


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭soups05


    just curious, but the tenant seems to have a good income from the op's posts. after eviction, could the op sue for the unpaid rent, any damage etc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Tenant being on the hook via the rtb....like rain in the sahara


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    soups05 wrote: »
    just curious, but the tenant seems to have a good income from the op's posts. after eviction, could the op sue for the unpaid rent, any damage etc?

    The enforcement of the determination order will give judgement against the tenant for the amount of rent plus costs. If the tenant can be found, they can be pursued for it. Very few landlords have ever succeeded in getting money from a former tenant.


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