NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

DaveyDave · 21-01-2019 10:47pm

Ugh that Spurs V Clippers game was frustrating. 95 - 103 to LA. Kept getting within 5 points, sometimes less but couldn't get the lead. I think they might have led once or twice for a but. 20 - 38 to LA in the 1st, if it wasn't for that the Spurs probably would have won. .5% ahead in FG while LA were 10% ahead in free throws.

Bertans wasn't shooting, and he missed a few. Disappointed to see him not get more shots. Some nice blocks by the Spurs though and they started with a good energy despite being down.

rushfan · 21-01-2019 11:32pm

Carmelo traded to the Bulls, but it's expected that he'll be waived.

Paully D · 21-01-2019 11:39pm

rushfan wrote: »

Carmelo traded to the Bulls, but it's expected that he'll be waived.

5 years too late.

rushfan · 21-01-2019 11:52pm

Paully D wrote:

5 years too late.

And 5 years too overweight. Never looked very fit imo.

ButtersSuki · 22-01-2019 1:35pm

Klay with 44 in 26 minutes including hitting his first 10 3 point attempts (10/11 overall). When he’s on form he’s a joy to watch. The shooting is incredible, but the movement without the ball too is other worldly. Over his last 5+ games he’s been back to his very best, still might not make the All Star Game though.

ButtersSuki · 22-01-2019 1:37pm

Paully D wrote: »

This Cavs team might just be the worst team I’ve ever seen.

I know they’ve already won more games, but somehow they may be even worse than the Bobcats in 2012! :eek:

Someone - I think it was Zach Lowe - did some adjusted stats and this season the Cavs and Hawks (until recently, they’ve likely improved given their current win total) had 2 of the 10 worst NBA defenses of all time.

For Forks Sake · 23-01-2019 12:17pm

Memphis looking to offload Conley and Gasol according to reports.

Conley is guaranteed $97m through the end of the 21 season, he's 32 with a bad injury history, ain't no one taking a flyer on that.

Gasol has $24.1m this year with a player option for $25.1 next year, he's a pro but has some awful mileage on the clock.

And that's before we even get to Chandler Parsons 2years/$50m...

And they owe their first round pick to Boston this year (it's top 8 protected which may be why they're in a hurry to clear the decks)

damowill · 23-01-2019 1:40pm

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Memphis looking to offload Conley and Gasol according to reports.

Conley is guaranteed $97m through the end of the 21 season, he's 32 with a bad injury history, ain't no one taking a flyer on that.

Gasol has $24.1m this year with a player option for $25.1 next year, he's a pro but has some awful mileage on the clock.

And that's before we even get to Chandler Parsons 2years/$50m...

And they owe their first round pick to Boston this year (it's top 8 protected which may be why they're in a hurry to clear the decks)

Think they are in line for pick 7 in upcoming draft so maybe they want to cash in and tank for the remainder of the season.

I have Gasol in fantasy, i was hoping they could win a few games to get themselves back into contention. I should have traded weeks ago when this news was rumoured

Morrison J · 23-01-2019 9:00pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Great comment by Juliet Littman on one of The Ringer podcasts the other day where she said the arguments people were making against Westbrook for MVP 2 years ago are the exact same arguments people are making that Harden should be MVP this year. Funny how the argument changes depending on the person.

The difference is the way Harden is playing is through necessity to carry the Rockets to the play offs. The way Westbrook played held his team back. Westbrook had great players at his disposal like Adams and Oladipo but made them ineffective. There's a big difference.

ButtersSuki · 23-01-2019 9:09pm

Morrison J wrote: »

The difference is the way Harden is playing is through necessity to carry the Rockets to the play offs. The way Westbrook played held his team back. Westbrook had great players at his disposal like Adams and Oladipo but made them ineffective. There's a big difference.

Wow. Just wow. This is revisionist history right there.

Westbrook held his team back? What? He had less by way of support that year than Harden had last or this.

Oladipo credits his time with Westbrook as making him the player he is now, the hard work, work ethic, relentlessness etc. Oladipo in Orlando and OKC was not the player he is in Indianan - and he credits that with playing with Westbrook for year.

Adams is a very good player at what he does well, but he is limited offensively. Westbrook wasn't holding him back.

I saw Westbrook play in the flesh that year a number of times including his game v Denver where he sealed a triple double average, scored 50 and the game winning buzzer beating 3. He was amazing that year. And it was 100 times more entertaining to watch than Harden.

Morrison J · 23-01-2019 9:24pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. This is revisionist history right there.

Westbrook held his team back? What? He had less by way of support that year than Harden had last or this.

Oladipo credits his time with Westbrook as making him the player he is now, the hard work, work ethic, relentlessness etc. Oladipo in Orlando and OKC was not the player he is in Indianan - and he credits that with playing with Westbrook for year.

Adams is a very good player at what he does well, but he is limited offensively. Westbrook wasn't holding him back.

I saw Westbrook play in the flesh that year a number of times including his game v Denver where he sealed a triple double average, scored 50 and the game winning buzzer beating 3. He was amazing that year. And it was 100 times more entertaining to watch than Harden.

Well its nothing to do with entertainment. Thats a separate point entirely.

Harden gets paid to win and given he's put the Rockets on his back and on a 15-6 run I think he's doing pretty well right now. Definitely doing more with less than Westbrook did.

Westbrook does a decent job of limiting the talent of good players around him. Once Durant left he's become one of the most efficient players in the league, Harden has left and become a superstar, Oladipo left and became a top tier guard. Context is obviously important with each one of those players and there's a number of factors to take into account but I definitely don't think Russell Westbrook is a coincidence with each one.

Body language is a big thing. You can tell Harden's teammates like him and are happy for him to take the lead. Westbrook seems like a horrendous teammate to be honest. The complete opposite. Makes enemies left, right and centre. Westbrook’s massive shooting slump he went on this year is probably the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s pass-first now and OKC are way better as a result. His teammates look like they actually enjoy playing with him now.

The Phantom Jipper · 23-01-2019 9:53pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. This is revisionist history right there.

Westbrook held his team back? What? He had less by way of support that year than Harden had last or this.

Oladipo credits his time with Westbrook as making him the player he is now, the hard work, work ethic, relentlessness etc. Oladipo in Orlando and OKC was not the player he is in Indianan - and he credits that with playing with Westbrook for year.

Adams is a very good player at what he does well, but he is limited offensively. Westbrook wasn't holding him back.

I saw Westbrook play in the flesh that year a number of times including his game v Denver where he sealed a triple double average, scored 50 and the game winning buzzer beating 3. He was amazing that year. And it was 100 times more entertaining to watch than Harden.

Chiming in here - I don't think it's controversial at all to say he held them back. Nobody is saying he isn't exciting and capable of putting up obscene stats but he's also a greedy inefficient player that tends not to make his teammates better. The development of Oladipo and Sabonis once they left is testament to this. He stifled Oladipo's development during his time there, despite any positive influence he may or may not have had on his off-season training. Harden at least is efficient and has a track record of getting regular season wins, as gruelling as it may be to watch.

ButtersSuki · 23-01-2019 9:54pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Well its nothing to do with entertainment. Thats a separate point entirely.

Harden gets paid to win and given he's put the Rockets on his back and on a 15-6 run I think he's doing pretty well right now. Definitely doing more with less than Westbrook did.

Westbrook does a decent job of limiting the talent of good players around him. Once Durant left he's become one of the most efficient players in the league, Harden has left and become a superstar, Oladipo left and became a top tier guard. Context is obviously important with each one of those players and there's a number of factors to take into account but I definitely don't think Russell Westbrook is a coincidence with each one.

Body language is a big thing. You can tell Harden's teammates like him and are happy for him to take the lead. Westbrook seems like a horrendous teammate to be honest. The complete opposite. Makes enemies left, right and centre. Westbrook’s massive shooting slump he went on this year is probably the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s pass-first now and OKC are way better as a result. His teammates look like they actually enjoy playing with him now.

I mentioned the entertainment factor purely as it’s been a discussion po int re. Harden on here recently.

Westbrook’s teammates weren’t complaining in his mvp season, that’s not how it was at all.

I’ll return to this later or tomorrow - just in the middle of something right now.

ButtersSuki · 23-01-2019 11:39pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Well its nothing to do with entertainment. Thats a separate point entirely.

Harden gets paid to win and given he's put the Rockets on his back and on a 15-6 run I think he's doing pretty well right now. Definitely doing more with less than Westbrook did.

Westbrook does a decent job of limiting the talent of good players around him. Once Durant left he's become one of the most efficient players in the league, Harden has left and become a superstar, Oladipo left and became a top tier guard. Context is obviously important with each one of those players and there's a number of factors to take into account but I definitely don't think Russell Westbrook is a coincidence with each one.

Body language is a big thing. You can tell Harden's teammates like him and are happy for him to take the lead. Westbrook seems like a horrendous teammate to be honest. The complete opposite. Makes enemies left, right and centre. Westbrook’s massive shooting slump he went on this year is probably the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s pass-first now and OKC are way better as a result. His teammates look like they actually enjoy playing with him now.

Well you could also turn that and say Durant was regular season MVP at OKC when playing with Russ, but hasn't won it since.

I think the point about his teammates enjoying playing with him is completely unfair - again having seen them play multiple times in recent years. They're a very tight knit squad.

What about Durant and Draymond this year? What about that for body language?

Doing more with less than Harden? I can't agree. Russ had basically nothing in his MVP year. He did something historic that year stats wise, has repeated it, and will likely do it again this year.

No-one was saying Oladipo to OKC was a big move and no-one is blaming Orlando for having 4 years with Oladipo and not getting more from him - it's all Russ's fault apparently. I saw Oladipo play a few times for Orlando and he looked grand but nothing special. No-one whom saw him play at Orlando for 4 years could have predicted he's be an All Star 18months after being traded and if they say they did they're lying. Situation determines a lot.

Harden at times can look amazing and I was actually quite a fan until last year - I still respect his game, just hate how he's evolved. He's in the perfect system to utilise some of his skills; but I wonder what Harden would look like on say the Spurs with Pop? Or the Celtics under Stevens? Or even GS? Obviously the numbers would be down, but crucially so would the minutes and he'd be fresh as a daisy going into the Playoffs playing team basketball with him as the star (except maybe in GS). It's all ifs, buts, and maybes; but it's an interesting thought project. Likewise if was in Memphis what would he look like.

And he plays zero D. You can say a lot about Russ but the effort is there every single night.

I'm too tired for this tonight, I'll come back to it again but genuinely think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here.

Gregk961 · 24-01-2019 12:05am

Saying Westbrook held back his team in his MVP season is ridiculous, Billy Donovan was and is responsible for the team not Russ. I'm on mobile here so can't really delve into any stats but I clearly remember very often when Westbrook was off the court OKC were hopeless. He dragged them to the playoffs that year and was at the very least a too 3 MVP candidate(I thought he should win at the time but I'm not so sure with hindsight-but that's another debate)

Buttersuki I definatly can't get behind you saying Westbrook gives 100% effort on defence, I find him to be a horrible defender only saved by his athletic ability from time to time. He's completely lost out there a lot of the time, other times he literally walks up the court getting back or fully exposes the entire defence looking for a steal.

ButtersSuki · 24-01-2019 12:11am

Morrison J wrote: »

Well its nothing to do with entertainment. Thats a separate point entirely.

Harden gets paid to win and given he's put the Rockets on his back and on a 15-6 run I think he's doing pretty well right now. Definitely doing more with less than Westbrook did.

Westbrook does a decent job of limiting the talent of good players around him. Once Durant left he's become one of the most efficient players in the league, Harden has left and become a superstar, Oladipo left and became a top tier guard. Context is obviously important with each one of those players and there's a number of factors to take into account but I definitely don't think Russell Westbrook is a coincidence with each one.

Body language is a big thing. You can tell Harden's teammates like him and are happy for him to take the lead. Westbrook seems like a horrendous teammate to be honest. The complete opposite. Makes enemies left, right and centre. Westbrook’s massive shooting slump he went on this year is probably the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s pass-first now and OKC are way better as a result. His teammates look like they actually enjoy playing with him now.

Gregk961 wrote: »

Saying Westbrook held back his team in his MVP season is ridiculous, Billy Donovan was and is responsible for the team not Russ. I'm on mobile here so can't really delve into any stats but I clearly remember very often when Westbrook was off the court OKC were hopeless. He dragged them to the playoffs that year and was at the very least a too 3 MVP candidate(I thought he should win at the time but I'm not so sure with hindsight-but that's another debate)

Buttersuki I definatly can't get behind you saying Westbrook gives 100% effort on defence, I find him to be a horrible defender only saved by his athletic ability from time to time. He's completely lost out there a lot of the time, other times he literally walks up the court getting back or fully exposes the entire defence looking for a steal.

Should be sleeping but.....

Sorry I meant his effort as in he plays so bloody hard, not that he's a great defender per se - but he's certainly better than Harden. His steal numbers have always been good (even is some of that is from gambling - all good stealers gamble though maybe not as much as him), he blocks shots at a higher rate than most guards and his rebounding is immense for a guy his size. I meant more "effort" in a general sense than D per se. Yeah he takes breaks but he's considered the hardest playing (if that's even English!) player in the league.

Example:
https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2018/04/18/charles-barkley-issues-apology-to-russell-westbrook-in-sign-of-respect/

Look I'm . not saying he's perfect - I criticised him a lot in the past mainly for his shot selection. But I don't get the hate.

Morrison J · 24-01-2019 12:23am

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Well its nothing to do with entertainment. Thats a separate point entirely.

Harden gets paid to win and given he's put the Rockets on his back and on a 15-6 run I think he's doing pretty well right now. Definitely doing more with less than Westbrook did.

Westbrook does a decent job of limiting the talent of good players around him. Once Durant left he's become one of the most efficient players in the league, Harden has left and become a superstar, Oladipo left and became a top tier guard. Context is obviously important with each one of those players and there's a number of factors to take into account but I definitely don't think Russell Westbrook is a coincidence with each one.

Body language is a big thing. You can tell Harden's teammates like him and are happy for him to take the lead. Westbrook seems like a horrendous teammate to be honest. The complete opposite. Makes enemies left, right and centre. Westbrook’s massive shooting slump he went on this year is probably the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s pass-first now and OKC are way better as a result. His teammates look like they actually enjoy playing with him now.

Well you could also turn that and say Durant was regular season MVP at OKC when playing with Russ, but hasn't won it since.

I think the point about his teammates enjoying playing with him is completely unfair - again having seen them play multiple times in recent years. They're a very tight knit squad.

What about Durant and Draymond this year? What about that for body language?

Doing more with less than Harden? I can't agree. Russ had basically nothing in his MVP year. He did something historic that year stats wise, has repeated it, and will likely do it again this year.

No-one was saying Oladipo to OKC was a big move and no-one is blaming Orlando for having 4 years with Oladipo and not getting more from him - it's all Russ's fault apparently. I saw Oladipo play a few times for Orlando and he looked grand but nothing special. No-one whom saw him play at Orlando for 4 years could have predicted he's be an All Star 18months after being traded and if they say they did they're lying. Situation determines a lot.

Harden at times can look amazing and I was actually quite a fan until last year - I still respect his game, just hate how he's evolved. He's in the perfect system to utilise some of his skills; but I wonder what Harden would look like on say the Spurs with Pop? Or the Celtics under Stevens? Or even GS? Obviously the numbers would be down, but crucially so would the minutes and he'd be fresh as a daisy going into the Playoffs playing team basketball with him as the star (except maybe in GS). It's all ifs, buts, and maybes; but it's an interesting thought project. Likewise if was in Memphis what would he look like.

And he plays zero D. You can say a lot about Russ but the effort is there every single night.

I'm too tired for this tonight, I'll come back to it again but genuinely think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here.

You really think Westbrook got the most out of the likes of Oladipo, Adams and Sabonis in his MVP year? All three have improved their numbers since.

I can tell you don't watch that much of Harden by saying he plays zero D. His defense has been really good the last two years. Completely elevated that part of his game. He's actually one of the best post defenders in the league in his position.

I just think people love to hate Harden. What's he had to play with this year? Gordon has had the worst year of his career. Harden was on a team that was falling apart after two months and he has just said **** it, completely put them on his back and lifted them into the play offs pretty much on his own. How can you not appreciate that? It's exactly the type of thing Kyrie should be doing for the Celtics right now but he can't/wont yet Harden probably gets twice the abuse he gets. It's so strange.

ButtersSuki · 24-01-2019 12:45am

Morrison J wrote: »

You really think Westbrook got the most out of the likes of Oladipo, Adams and Sabonis in his MVP year? All three have improved their numbers since.

I can tell you don't watch that much of Harden by saying he plays zero D. His defense has been really good the last two years. Completely elevated that part of his game. He's actually one of the best post defenders in the league in his position.

I just think people love to hate Harden. What's he had to play with this year? Gordon has had the worst year of his career. Harden was on a team that was falling apart after two months and he has just said **** it, completely put them on his back and lifted them into the play offs pretty much on his own. How can you not appreciate that? It's exactly the type of thing Kyrie should be doing for the Celtics right now but he can't/wont yet Harden probably gets twice the abuse he gets. It's so strange.

Aside from the 2 months bit that's what Russ did in his MVP year -0 which is back to my original point about what Littman said.

Oldaipo last year and Sabonis this year have bulked up and remodelled their games to become better players. And they're 2 years older. And they're in a different situation that maximises their talent. I've made the point repeatedly over the years that situation can mean so much in defining your success in basketball. You can be a good player in the wrong system for your skillset and you'll look like a shadow of what you could be.

Oldaipo was 4 years on Orlando and 1 year in OKC but it was Russ who stopped him from becoming an All Star. Ok........
What did he do in Orlando for 4 years? Nothing of note.

Adams from most perspectives is averaging the same as he did in the Russ MVP season. He's averaging exactly 4ppg more and approx 2rpg more than he did in that year, but he's playing 5mins more per game (per basketball reference - I just looked). I really like Adams btw, I think he's excellent at what he does well, but he's limited in what he does offensively to be fair. I don't think you can say Russ held him back.

You're talking about Harden like he's an All Defence candidate. He's not. He has lots of zero effort plays. Lots of them. He's a turnstile if anyone drives at him. Now maybe that's to avoid foul trouble (he very rarely fouls out to be fair), but it's also a conscious effort thing with him. Has he improved? Probably. But he couldn't have been much worse.

Amongst guards only in NBA Defensive stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

Westbrook is 4th, Harden 125th.

To be clear, I think Harden is playing better than Westbrook now. All I was saying is I don't get the hate for Russ and what he did, and the excuses that were used to downplay his efforts that year are somehow now being turned into reasons to celebrate Harden this year. I was talking about the narrative.

ButtersSuki · 24-01-2019 6:59am

Oladipo gone for the season at least (knee).

Harden goes for 61. 5-20 3s....

kmart6 · 24-01-2019 8:43am

263 straight points for Harden unassisted, how that is possible is ridiculous.

irishguitarlad · 24-01-2019 10:58am

kmart6 wrote: »

263 straight points for Harden unassisted, how that is possible is ridiculous.

How many of those are free throws?

Osmosis Jones · 24-01-2019 11:12am

kmart6 wrote: »

263 straight points for Harden unassisted, how that is possible is ridiculous.

He even missed an assisted layup, caught the rebound and put it back in.

kmart6 · 24-01-2019 11:22am

irishguitarlad wrote: »

How many of those are free throws?

79 FTM over the last 5 games which the run covers so give or take a few maybe.

K.O.Kiki · 24-01-2019 11:55am

Fúck knee injuries.

Poor Dipo, Pacers should've never put him back into the season this early!

ButtersSuki · 24-01-2019 12:12pm

Zach Lowe had Jeanie Buss on his podcast yesterday. Wasn't great TBH, bit of a puff piece/Lakers PR job but what was kinda weird was to hear her call her father "Dr. Jerry Buss" or "Dr. Buss" more often then not. It was like he was her employer rather than her Dad. Prob. worth listening to if you're a Lakers fan.

Woj had Nicola Vucevic on his; and was actually quite interesting, didn't know he's basically been in the US since he was a teenager.

LuckyLloyd · 24-01-2019 2:49pm

Harden's season has become performance art. It is more refined than Westbrook chasing the record however, because it is impossible to argue that he is denying his team the best path to victory each night. There is no feel that he is bending rational decision making or that the approach is sub optimal. Clear it out, iso up and watch him go to work. 30 points + in 21 straight games. Huge volumes of consistent points unassisted. And, most importantly, a 16 - 6 run to take an 11 - 14 team from in danger of missing the playoffs to climbing back up the seedings. Fascinated to see how much longer he can keep this up!

damowill · 24-01-2019 3:15pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Harden's season has become performance art. It is more refined than Westbrook chasing the record however, because it is impossible to argue that he is denying his team the best path to victory each night. There is no feel that he is bending rational decision making or that the approach is sub optimal. Clear it out, iso up and watch him go to work. 30 points + in 21 straight games. Huge volumes of consistent points unassisted. And, most importantly, a 16 - 6 run to take an 11 - 14 team from in danger of missing the playoffs to climbing back up the seedings. Fascinated to see how much longer he can keep this up!

i agree, it is fascinating to see how long he can keep going! a 16 - 6 record without CP and Capela, & most of it without Eric Gordon is truly mind blowing.

a dead cert for MVP now even though Giannis has been exceptional.

on Giannis, he is becoming a real leader now. im hoping he takes the Bucks all the way!!

Morrison J · 24-01-2019 3:53pm

ButtersSuki wrote: »

You're talking about Harden like he's an All Defence candidate. He's not. He has lots of zero effort plays. Lots of them. He's a turnstile if anyone drives at him. Now maybe that's to avoid foul trouble (he very rarely fouls out to be fair), but it's also a conscious effort thing with him. Has he improved? Probably. But he couldn't have been much worse.

A turnstile? I just know you haven't watched much of Harden with this take though. His defense the last two years has been really good. Not a weakness whatsoever. A few clips from 3/4 years ago has created a false narrative that he's a liability defensively. If you watch him you'll know he's definitely not.

https://twitter.com/Itamar1710/status/1087401160498135040

Morrison J · 24-01-2019 4:27pm

This is worth a read to get a grasp just how historic the run actually is. The efficiency numbers very telling too https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/23/18193249/james-harden-scoring-history-houston-rockets

K.O.Kiki · 24-01-2019 5:20pm

kmart6 wrote: »

263 straight points for Harden unassisted, how that is possible is ridiculous.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ajdd59/why_is_the_top_post_on_nbareddit_about_hardens/

Bad assist-keeping.

NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

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