Buy in the UK or here? Honda CMX 500 Motorbike

snootsnoot · 04-09-2018 4:39pm #1

So I'm after a Honda CMX 500 Motorbike

Secondhand (late 2017/early 2018) it's around £4.5/5k by the time I convert to euro, pay VRT (€800) and VAT @ 23% (say €1200) + getting it transported back (maybe €300) I'm not that far off €7k
Brand new in Eire it's €7400 (if you can get a dealer to get one for you)

Would you be bothered in the hassle of it? Getting it through all the hoops just to save a few hundred?

Chiorino · 04-09-2018 4:50pm

If the bike is over 6 months old and mileage is over 6k, I don't think VAT will be due. That alone should make it worth it.

snootsnoot · 04-09-2018 4:51pm

Nah, very low milage on the few that i've seen on autotrader 500-2000 miles.

Del2005 · 04-09-2018 5:22pm

For the sake of €400 I'd go new. Why won't a dealer order it for you?

You can buy new in the UK and sign a form to get it VAT free for export if you can't get an Irish dealer to order one. Try up North if going this route to save on ferry.

snootsnoot · 04-09-2018 5:30pm

Del2005 wrote: »

For the sake of €400 I'd go new. Why won't a dealer order it for you?

You can buy new in the UK and sign a form to get it VAT free for export if you can't get an Irish dealer to order one. Try up North if going this route to save on ferry.

Thanks Del2005, i've contacted a couple of Honda dealers and they said will order start of 2019... Or could I ask any motorbike dealer to order one in? Thought they might have to be affiliated or the like.
Ta,

fdevine · 04-09-2018 5:47pm

I bought from Belfast Honda before and while the saving at the time was minimal it was still a saving. They will sell VAT free as vehicle is for export and you get a HMRC form to that effect.

Ireland is a relatively small market for the likes of Honda so dealers here tend to get bikes when they're available and not when they want them.

I'd been given a 4-6 month delivery window. Belfast had one in stock.

snootsnoot · 04-09-2018 6:01pm

Just had two other replies from Honda dealers that will not stock them, or order them... strange, i thought that they are in the business of selling, guess they can afford to be picky but at what expense? Hardly the best business model. Guess I'll give my hard earned to the Crown so

aido43 · 05-09-2018 10:58am

If its the Honda dealer situated off one of our busiest motorways I can clearly understand your pain---they have literally no interest in selling anything. I would never buy in Republic again---quality and service miles ahead in UK.

snootsnoot · 05-09-2018 12:24pm

aido43 wrote: »

If its the Honda dealer situated off one of our busiest motorways I can clearly understand your pain---they have literally no interest in selling anything. I would never buy in Republic again---quality and service miles ahead in UK.

Yep, that's one of the 4 I contacted, same reply from 2 dealers (sorry, next year) and the other two said no straight off.
So it's off to the UK now, have emailed a few lads up north too, will wait to see what they come back with first.
Anyway, strange business model right? Or maybe not, maybe they just sell the most popular cost effective stock... Anyway back to Autotrader

galwaytt · 05-09-2018 1:33pm

aido43 wrote: »

If its the Honda dealer situated off one of our busiest motorways I can clearly understand your pain---they have literally no interest in selling anything. I would never buy in Republic again---quality and service miles ahead in UK.

..and, very hard to buy off a shop that operates office hours: I mean, not opening Saturday's ??

When do they think people actually BUY bikes ?

Del2005 · 05-09-2018 2:26pm

galwaytt wrote: »

..and, very hard to buy off a shop that operates office hours: I mean, not opening Saturday's ??

When do they think people actually BUY bikes ?

They barely operate office hours. That would mean answering the phone during office hours and they don't do that very often.

snootsnoot · 05-09-2018 2:31pm

Fook me! Wonder what their after sales service is like then

snootsnoot · 05-09-2018 5:39pm

Just any thoughts on this as this dealer will sell @£;5145 = €5715
http://www.huntsmotorcycles.co.uk/NewBikes/honda-cmx500-rebel.htm

Pay VAT on the cost of the Euro price right? 23% = €1183
Pay VRT €2 per 350cc + €1 over up to 471cc (€121) = €821

Grand total of €7719, It's over nearly €300 the cost of a dealer here in the republic but sure they won't sell or stock so f%^k them.

A second hand bike with a few miles on it will cost around €7,000 all in with the above (if i was to import etc).

My real question is, would it be better to buy something brand new or secondhand (even though two of the second hand bikes have only 100 or 150miles on them)
Cheers, A

Goose81 · 05-09-2018 6:01pm

snootsnoot wrote: »

Just any thoughts on this as this dealer will sell @£;5145 = €5715
http://www.huntsmotorcycles.co.uk/NewBikes/honda-cmx500-rebel.htm

Pay VAT on the cost of the Euro price right? 23% = €1183
Pay VRT €2 per 350cc + €1 over up to 471cc (€121) = €821

Grand total of €7719, It's over nearly €300 the cost of a dealer here in the republic but sure they won't sell or stock so f%^k them.

A second hand bike with a few miles on it will cost around €7,000 all in with the above (if i was to import etc).

My real question is, would it be better to buy something brand new or secondhand (even though two of the second hand bikes have only 100 or 150miles on them)
Cheers, A

Buy a 1 year old one with over the required Miles so you don't pay vat, let the first owner take the hit. You have a while to vrt it anyway so you can bring the mileage up if needed to cross the threshold. I think you said there are none up but surely if you look over the next few months one will come up with the mileage close to what you need.

macplaxton · 06-09-2018 6:02am

snootsnoot wrote: »

Just any thoughts on this as this dealer will sell @£;5145 = €5715
http://www.huntsmotorcycles.co.uk/NewBikes/honda-cmx500-rebel.htm

Pay VAT on the cost of the Euro price right? 23% = €1183
Pay VRT €2 per 350cc + €1 over up to 471cc (€121) = €821

Grand total of €7719

Thought for the day - you don't pay VAT twice over.

They are advertising £5145 OTR PCP. Not sure if the price will be the same or more for cash. In an OTR, there would be VED (Motor Tax) (6m £35.20 or 12m £64), first registration fee (£55). So there is ~£100 not needed there if they'll sell unregistered for export - fill in HMRC VAT411

£5145 ex-UK VAT@20% is £4288

Revenue exchange rate for Sept 2018, €1 = £0.8985 (£4287.50/0.8985) is €4772.

€4772 + VAT@23% (€1098) = €5870

VRT is correct at €821.

I make that €6691.

Even if it was full list price, £5599. That would be €7210. Cheapest I saw was a pre-registered one for £4,649 (€6126)

With regards to a used vehicle finding one over six months old is dead easy, but finding one with more than 3728 miles (or riding it up and down to get it over...) is rather more of a challenge.

snootsnoot · 06-09-2018 8:15am

macplaxton wrote: »

Thought for the day - you don't pay VAT twice over.

They are advertising £5145 OTR PCP. Not sure if the price will be the same or more for cash. In an OTR, there would be VED (Motor Tax) (6m £35.20 or 12m £64), first registration fee (£55). So there is ~£100 not needed there if they'll sell unregistered for export - fill in HMRC VAT411

£5145 ex-UK VAT@20% is £4288

Revenue exchange rate for Sept 2018, €1 = £0.8985 (£4287.50/0.8985) is €4772.

€4772 + VAT@23% (€1098) = €5870

VRT is correct at €821.

I make that €6691.

Even if it was full list price, £5599. That would be €7210. Cheapest I saw was a pre-registered one for £4,649 (€6126)

With regards to a used vehicle finding one over six months old is dead easy, but finding one with more than 3728 miles (or riding it up and down to get it over...) is rather more of a challenge.

Thanks so much for this, I've emailed the dealer to see what he comes back with, it might be a thing that they don't want the added complications of HMRC in the mix regarding exports but worth a try.
Again, cheers for the informative post with breakdowns and the like

snootsnoot · 06-09-2018 10:55am

macplaxton wrote: »

Thought for the day - you don't pay VAT twice over.

They are advertising £5145 OTR PCP. Not sure if the price will be the same or more for cash. In an OTR, there would be VED (Motor Tax) (6m £35.20 or 12m £64), first registration fee (£55). So there is ~£100 not needed there if they'll sell unregistered for export - fill in HMRC VAT411

£5145 ex-UK VAT@20% is £4288

Revenue exchange rate for Sept 2018, €1 = £0.8985 (£4287.50/0.8985) is €4772.

€4772 + VAT@23% (€1098) = €5870

VRT is correct at €821.

I make that €6691.

Even if it was full list price, £5599. That would be €7210. Cheapest I saw was a pre-registered one for £4,649 (€6126)

With regards to a used vehicle finding one over six months old is dead easy, but finding one with more than 3728 miles (or riding it up and down to get it over...) is rather more of a challenge.

Update from Honda dealer in the UK.

Think it clarifies it in this section.

http://www.brighton-accountants.com/blog/vat-uk-ireland/

listermint · 06-09-2018 12:33pm

snootsnoot wrote: »

Update from Honda dealer in the UK.

Think it clarifies it in this section.

http://www.brighton-accountants.com/blog/vat-uk-ireland/

Give them your PPS number or a vat number, its only for their paperwork.

You WILL get charged VAT and VRT here when importing so you are not evading any VAT at all.

galwaytt · 06-09-2018 4:58pm

Unless you ship it unregistered, on a truck/trailer, you will have to pay UK VAT.

You will then pay Irish VAT and VRT etc here: with that done, you then apply to UK for a VAT refund. In otherwords, you'll have to pay 2 VAT bills at the outset, but will get one (the UK one) back after you prove it's been paid here.

snootsnoot · 06-09-2018 5:09pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Unless you ship it unregistered, on a truck/trailer, you will have to pay UK VAT.

You will then pay Irish VAT and VRT etc here: with that done, you then apply to UK for a VAT refund. In otherwords, you'll have to pay 2 VAT bills at the outset, but will get one (the UK one) back after you prove it's been paid here.

Yep, going to bite the bullet and just buy it brand new, there's only 500 or so sterling between a pre owned one with 100 miles on it, and essentially the VRT at €821 is the same new or second hand, the VAT i'll take the hit on and apply for refund once I have it over here.

So next steps then are buy it and get it shipped to my place, I'd not be legally able to drive it until i get ins and tax sorted and pay all the relevant bits to the revenue.

Would I just make an appointment with the NCT VRT chaps, pay the price of both there and then and that's it?

My mate has a trailer, could just throw it on that and bring it in as the risk of driving a bike with no plates is highly risky right? i.e I can't get it in insured/taxed without getting the paperwork for it first...

Del2005 · 06-09-2018 5:28pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Unless you ship it unregistered, on a truck/trailer, you will have to pay UK VAT.

You will then pay Irish VAT and VRT etc here: with that done, you then apply to UK for a VAT refund. In otherwords, you'll have to pay 2 VAT bills at the outset, but will get one (the UK one) back after you prove it's been paid here.

You can register it and still get it VAT free in the UK, you just use form 411.

https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/newly-bought-vehicles

Del2005 · 06-09-2018 5:30pm

snootsnoot wrote: »

Yep, going to bite the bullet and just buy it brand new, there's only 500 or so sterling between a pre owned one with 100 miles on it, and essentially the VRT at €821 is the same new or second hand, the VAT i'll take the hit on and apply for refund once I have it over here.

So next steps then are buy it and get it shipped to my place, I'd not be legally able to drive it until i get ins and tax sorted and pay all the relevant bits to the revenue.

Would I just make an appointment with the NCT VRT chaps, pay the price of both there and then and that's it?

My mate has a trailer, could just throw it on that and bring it in as the risk of driving a bike with no plates is highly risky right? i.e I can't get it in insured/taxed without getting the paperwork for it first...

You can insure on the UK reg and import it. Once you make the VRT appointment within 7 days of import you are fine to ride on UK plates till you get the Irish reg.

snootsnoot · 06-09-2018 5:39pm

Del2005 wrote: »

You can insure on the UK reg and import it. Once you make the VRT appointment within 7 days of import you are fine to ride on UK plates till you get the Irish reg.

But it won't have plates, it'll not be registered yet or am I missing something, do all new bikes come with a registration plate as standard?

Del2005 · 06-09-2018 5:42pm

snootsnoot wrote: »

But it won't have plates, it'll not be registered yet or am I missing something, do all new bikes come with a registration plate as standard?

You fill in the form 411 in the previous post when buying and you get it VAT free for export. It'll be registered so you will have a UK reg to insure it for use here.

macplaxton · 07-09-2018 5:44am

Apologies in advance for the multi-quote, but I've been at work and missed all the action...

snootsnoot wrote: »

Think it clarifies it in this section.
http://www.brighton-accountants.com/blog/vat-uk-ireland/

Clarifies nothing really as it doesn't talk much about the special case of private buyer & "new means of transport" (NMT) (either less than 6k km or less than 6 month old)

listermint wrote: »

Give them your PPS number or a vat number, its only for their paperwork.

You WILL get charged VAT and VRT here when importing so you are not evading any VAT at all.

As linked above, you fill in a HMRC VAT411. If you look at the form, no PSS or VAT number is required to be filled in. It is not needed for the paperwork.

galwaytt wrote: »

Unless you ship it unregistered, on a truck/trailer, you will have to pay UK VAT.

You will then pay Irish VAT and VRT etc here: with that done, you then apply to UK for a VAT refund. In otherwords, you'll have to pay 2 VAT bills at the outset, but will get one (the UK one) back after you prove it's been paid here.

No so, you buy it for export. The vehicle is temporarily registered and issued with an X-plate (export). See HMRC VAT411. There's only one VAT bill and that is the Irish one. Nothing to claim back.

snootsnoot wrote: »

i.e I can't get it in insured/taxed without getting the paperwork for it first...

Insure under UK registration (temporary export one), ride it over. Make an appointment with local NCTS registration within 7 days and that appointment date to be within 30 days of bike entering State (Go for the 1st of the month and get the full month's motor tax).

Del2005 wrote: »

You can register it and still get it VAT free in the UK, you just use form 411.

https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/newly-bought-vehicles

Spot on.

Del2005 wrote: »

You can insure on the UK reg and import it. Once you make the VRT appointment within 7 days of import you are fine to ride on UK plates till you get the Irish reg.

There's someone who either already knows the score (or has been paying attention at the back).

snootsnoot wrote: »

But it won't have plates, it'll not be registered yet or am I missing something, do all new bikes come with a registration plate as standard?

You are missing something, see export plate bit above and below.

Del2005 wrote: »

You fill in the form 411 in the previous post when buying and you get it VAT free for export. It'll be registered so you will have a UK reg to insure it for use here.

I linked to form VAT411 back in my previous post too, those that read it, will have noticed there is an accompanying VAT notice 728. If they haven't fallen asleep yet, they'd have got to section 10.2....

HMRC wrote:

10.2 Registering a land vehicle purchased in the UK for removal to another member state
If you purchase a land vehicle in the UK for removal to another EU member state and the vehicle is not already registered for road use in the UK, it will be allocated a registration number in a special ‘VAT-free’ series of numbers. This allows it to be identified as tax free for the length of time it remains in the UK prior to removal.

The supplier of the vehicle will obtain the number for you by presenting copy 3 of the form VAT411 at one of the DVLA local offices.

Example of a personal export plate:

Currently, it'll start XA to XF68 ??? You will have two months to remove it from the UK. You don't get issued a V5C Vehicle Registration Certificate, you will instead get a WX302 temporary VRC. As far as I can see, you do not have to pay for VED licence (UK Motor Tax) under the scheme, but you do have to licence it (the process still has to be done, but the fee is zero as it is "exempt" - it's a bit like classic cars there. Just because the fee is zero it doesn't remove the obligation of going through the online forms / or trip to the post office to "buy" your invisible "tax disc") You (or the dealer) will pay the £55 first registration fee though.

(Disclaimer - I'm not an accountant specialising in VAT. I've never imported a NMT, but I have done a transfer of residence and imported 6 used vehicles to Ireland for my own use)

macplaxton · 07-09-2018 6:00am

By the way, ask if a UK buyer gets 6 or 12 months road tax as part of the deal...and make sure that amount (6m £35.20 or 12m £64) is deducted from the £5145.

Back in 2011, I bought a new trailer with accessories as part of a deal for £800. A number plate was part of it. As I was leaving the UK in less than a day. I paid £792 and even got them take my car plate off and attach it to the trailer. Legit as long as I remained coupled-up.

DSCF3985.JPG by macplaxton, on Flickr

galwaytt · 07-09-2018 3:31pm

macplaxton wrote: »

No so, you buy it for export. The vehicle is temporarily registered and issued with an X-plate (export). See HMRC VAT411. There's only one VAT bill and that is the Irish one. Nothing to claim back.

You're assuming the seller is prepared to sell it that way: many aren't. Been through this earlier this year with a car and the dealer wasn't interested in the palaver involved, so it was a buy & reclaim process.

And, a lot of new bikes in the UK are pre-registered, so that's another factor - they might not be keen to take another non-reg one from stock when there's pre-reg ones on the showroom floor..... btw, pre-reg allows them to not only 'manipulate' sales figures, but it also allows them to do on-the-spot sales to ride away as there's s.f.a. paperwork. Striking whilst the iron is hot & all that...

macplaxton · 08-09-2018 1:05am

True, you can't make them sell it. If they don't want a sale, may they go down the pan. I'm taking my folding stuff elsewhere.

The trick is to find a seller who is familiar with the process (or at least willing). I would have thought Northern Irish dealers may be more experienced in this regard, Welsh ones too, or dealers that sell in London or near military facilities, etc. Or any one near a port (e.g. Liverpool).

In the case of pre-registered, there is nothing to stop a dealer selling it VAT-free with the required forms filled in. In practice, the dealer may hold a deposit for the VAT amount until such time as they receive some proof that it's been paid elsewhere within two months so the VAT Man doesn't come looking for the money from them.

A quick glance at dealer websites and they are poor. Do half of them not know it's 2018? Get on the phone and see if the salesman is keen or not.

BadSanta · 17-01-2019 7:14pm

Hi guys I just pay VAT here in Ireland today as the bike I bought in Northern Ireland is low mileage, can someone give me link of the form I need to sign for UK VAT Refund? and please give me some ideas how to it.

Thanks in advance..

galwaytt · 18-01-2019 12:59am

galwaytt wrote: »

You're assuming the seller is prepared to sell it that way: many aren't. Been through this earlier this year with a car and the dealer wasn't interested in the palaver involved, so it was a buy & reclaim process.

And, a lot of new bikes in the UK are pre-registered, so that's another factor - they might not be keen to take another non-reg one from stock when there's pre-reg ones on the showroom floor..... btw, pre-reg allows them to not only 'manipulate' sales figures, but it also allows them to do on-the-spot sales to ride away as there's s.f.a. paperwork. Striking whilst the iron is hot & all that...

This ^^^^^

And some brands specifically prohibit UK sales-for-export by UK franchised dealers : Honda & Harley are but two I believe.

Mind you in 70-odd days time this well all become moot.......

Buy in the UK or here? Honda CMX 500 Motorbike

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