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Island of Ireland damaged by Comet in 6th Century

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  • #32
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Same can be said about books - just cos it's been published don't make it true.

    Any peer reviewed book or journal is a legitimate source of information. Trouble is, most of the sites with peer reviewed journals require that you have a subscription. I generally photocopy articles to read at home, hence the lack of links.
    There are excellent sites for researching primary sources on the net - such as CELT (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/)
    Fordham's history source book (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook.asp),
    Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page)
    and
    British History On-Line (www.british-history.ac.uk/)
    to name a few.

    Primary sources are not the only source of information. Archaeology deals with the physical remains of human history. For an event such as that in 536 AD an dthe effects in the following years environmental history/Paeloecological evidence is arguably more important than archaeologial or historical evidence.
    For articles and books there are google books, JSTOR (soon launching a free read service so people won't have to access it through universities etc - more info here: http://about.jstor.org/rr) and History Ireland (http://www.historyireland.com/)

    I have a jstor account, but there is no point posting links to articles here, it will just give the access denied page.
    But back to the OP's question - I have not seen any documentary evidence that there was a climatic event such as he described which affected Ireland in the period 520 - 540 AD. This is not to dismiss the idea, but I would need more then a wikipedia entry to convince me.

    Everything I have is in old-fashioned paper format, I used the wikipedia link because it was the handiest, readily available source of info.

    Here's a list of Mike Bailie's publications. Exodus to Arthur: is probably the most accessible read on the subject.

    http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/gap/Staff/AcademicStaff/ProfEmeritusMikeBaillie/

    Heres a link to an article in nature magazine, a fairly reliable source of info

    http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080311/full/news.2008.665.html

    another link, this is for Dr. Jan Oosthoek's web page with reference to 536 AD

    http://www.eh-resources.org/volcanoes.html
    Furthermore, I can see no reason why 'the church' or clerical scribes would suppress such information when they did describe, often in great detail, such events in other years.

    Agreed, that sounds like poppycock!

    And if your feeling frisky there's a conference coming up soon which will (in part) deal with the issue...

    http://irishsettlement.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Programme.pdf


  • #33
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Jesus Nut wrote: »
    Can anyone shed some light on this?

    A few researches B]what researchers?[/B believe that some time in the 6th Century the Island of Ireland and UK etc (Britan at the time) [ islands - and not 'Britain' - shall we say the British Isles ;) ] was damaged from a Comet that wiped out much of Bolivia around 532AD. [Where did the comet strike exactly if it damaged the British isles and wiped out Bolivia? What form did the damage to the British isles take?]
    It was said that the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event [. what land - British isles or Bolivia?) ]
    The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! [ um....find this claim dodgy - see comment below] The earth was flat remember.[ no it wasn't. And no-one really believed it was. They knew it was round - they just thought it was a lot smaller then it is.... ]

    Anyways, would be interesting to hear others views on the Irish Comet and the overall effect it had.
    [ 'Irish' comet - I'm confused...are you saying a comet hit Ireland directly? ]
    Mabey the comet was the real reason for columba for leaving our island at that time!!!!! Will we ever know?

    OP - can you please link us the source you are referring to?

    You say the 'same researchers believe that it was suppressed by the church' - which researchers are these? We do need a link to the article...

    Plus, when you say 'the church suppressed it' - I assume you mean the Roman church - as opposed to Greek, Coptic etc...

    I find it hard to believe that the Roman church was in a position to impose a world wide ban on discussing something in the early 6th century to be honest - especially something that had been observed for thousands of years before 'the church' existed. Most of northern Europe was not yet converted, and Ireland certainly wasn't completely converted by that time ( no matter what the stories about St. Patrick say :p) - how could they possibly enforce such a ban?

    It would seem that there is evidence of a climatic event affecting eastern Asia and the Mediterranean - thanks to Dubhthach for the link - but evidence for 'the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event' just isn't there. Stunted tree growth - yes, failure of the wheat crop at least one year - yes. But certainly not for the large scale famine that would have resulted from 11 years of vegetation failure or for severe stress on tree growth for over a decade.


  • #34
    Jesus Nut
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Jesus Nut


    I watched this 2 hour talk show the other night on the telly and this is where I got my info. Interesting stuff
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMibF5JvDlM


    I really dont know much about history tbh, but this guy sparked a nerve with me.

    Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right


  • #35
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    I wouldn't take the reference in the annals to the lack of bread to literally mean that just the wheat crop was effected. Stunted tree growth is indicative of an overall decline in the climate. If large, hardy fauna like oak trees are suffering restricted growth then smaller fauna are going to be even more adversrley effected.


    I found the documentary that Ejazmatec mentioned in an earlier post (I knew I'd seen it before) It's called Secrets of the Dead:Catastrophe. It was broadcast on both BBC and PBS, this version has a very corny sounding American doing the voicee over. The bit with Mike Bailie talking about Ireland kicks in after about 5 mins.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvjtsIIUqZ8

    P.S. Sorry to say that I would not trust that Alan Wilson lad one little bit. His stuff is whats known as pseudohistory i.e. he starts with a grain of truth and makes it into the story he wants it to be. The Ark of the Covenant in Wales? Seriously?


  • #36
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Jesus Nut wrote: »
    I watched this 2 hour talk show the other night on the telly and this is where I got my info. Interesting stuff
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMibF5JvDlM


    I really dont know much about history tbh, but this guy sparked a nerve with me.

    Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right

    No Worries Jesus Nut - the questions I was asking are pretty much how historians go about things ;). Who said that? Where did they say it? What did they actually say? What do they mean by that? What proof do they have? Do they have any more proof? :)


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  • #37
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    8

    P.S. Sorry to say that I would not trust that Alan Wilson lad one little bit. His stuff is whats known as pseudohistory i.e. he starts with a grain of truth and makes it into the story he wants it to be. The Ark of the Covenant in Wales? Seriously?

    Quite. Don't we all know it's above in Tara.:)
    P


  • #38
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Quite. Don't we all know it's above in Tara.:)
    P
    In addition to the folklore of the Celtic kings - which plays as important a role in Ireland as King Arthur does in England - a number of modern myths and theories have developed around the Hill of Tara.

    Around 1900, a group came to believe that the Irish were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel and that the Ark of the Covenant was buried at Tara. They dug in the Rath of the Synods, but did not find the Ark. They did, however, find some Roman coins.

    More recently, at least one author has theorized that Ireland is the lost kingdom of Atlantis and Tara was its capital.
    http://www.sacred-destinations.com/ireland/hill-of-tara

    This one really takes the prize for sheer crap:
    The 'little people' : Just as the angels disputed over the body of Moses, at his death, the angels disputed over the hiding place of the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark is hidden and the angels still dispute over this territory. Why do you think the Irish have hatred continually between north and south. This is a spiritual battle , which continues to this day. The Gentile Christian Church (Roman Catholic) would like nothing better than to control all of this land. With it, they would control the resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Keeping the Ark hidden behind legends hides the real roots and national background of the people of Ireland. They are Israelites. That is why Jeremiah took the Ark, other items, and the royal princesses to that area of the world. They were to be re-united with the remnant of their own people -- Israel. The Danites and the Simeonites (the 'fighting Irish') live there today...

    ... In the book: Tracing Our White Ancestors , by Frederick Haberman; we read: "Irish historians are unanimous that about 580 B.C. there arrived in Ulster a notable man, a patriarch or saint, accompanied by an Eastern princess, and a lesser person by the name of Simon Brach , or Barech. This party brought with them several remarkable things about which Ireland's songs and legends cluster; those things were a harp (David's harp), and a wonderful stone -- the Stone of Destiny -- the Lia Phail . ...Irish tradition tells us that Jeremiah married the princess Tamar Tephi to Eochaidh, the Heremon, or head king of Ireland, after the latter embraced the worship of the true Jehovah. Jeremiah became the chief figure in Irish history, life and religion."

    In the book: Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright , by J. H. Allen; we note that Jeremiah, Simon Brach, a princess (daughter of an eastern king) and that the royal party carried with them the harp, an ark and the stone called Liafail. This ark is nothing other than the Ark of the Covenant .

    Irish history tells us that the last place the Ark of the Covenant was seen is Ireland !...

    ...Twenty Irish histories agree that Jeremiah the prophet in about 585 B.C., came to Ireland. He brought important items from Jerusalem. One item was the Ark of the Covenant. He was the Patriarch Saint of Ireland. The title evolved to Saint Patriarch. The Roman Catholics sainted a Christian missionary named Patrick, who died in the county of Down, on March 17, 465 A.D. This slick trick, was recorded by history as fact. This Patrick was not the traditional patron of Ireland.

    "The fact is, Rome began early to covet Ireland. Once they got possession, it was necessary for them to destroy the influence of Jeremiah . This they did, in part, by substituting the name of St. Patrick in the place of the prophet's; and more, they then set to work to destroy even the old and famous capital city of Tara . In 565 (A.D.) St. Ruadham, along with a posse of bishops and chiefs of the South of Ireland, cursed the city, so that neither King nor Queen might ever rule or reign therein again. They forced the government, monarchy, and people to abandon the place. From thence Tara was deserted..." (The Ten Lost Tribes, Rev. Joseph Wild, D.D., 1883, London: Robert Banks, Printer, Racquet Court, Fleet Street, E.C.)

    It is clear how Irish legend has been perverted and twisted to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness". After Tara, the influence of the Roman Catholic church is pervasive in destroying the traditions of the Tuath de Danan, with false stories -- lies. What has filtered down through history are mere shadows of the truth. Hidden are the records of the Hebrews who transplanted their royal lineage and priesthood from Palestine to Ireland, for safety. Jeremiah and Barech are lost to us. Their deeds are to be re-discovered in our generation....

    ...The fact that the last place the Ark of the Covenant was seen, was Ireland, is a matter of historical record . Historians reject it as legend and prose, nevertheless it is recorded history. This fact is not as important as the question: will God use the Ark again to demonstrate that the nation of Israel is the nation He is working through?
    http://www.cryaloud.com/ark_covenant_jeremiah_ireland.htm

    'Historians are unanimous' said Haberman in his book Tracing Our White Ancestors? I'm a historian, I work with historians and have done so for many years - not once have I encountered them (us) being unanimous about anything plus I think Haberman is spouting a load of rubbish.

    As for the premise of his book - Tracing our white ancestors...I'm not even going to go there!


  • #39
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    As for the premise of his book - Tracing our white ancestors...I'm not even going to go there!

    If we put our heads together we could............ go back to Pelagius, the earliest recorded Irish Christian & our "gnostic" monks ............ Palladius going native, Patrick's kidnapping.....Charlemange ..... the Celtic Church & Pope Adrian's Laudabiliter ....Knights Templar ...The Flight of the EarlsHeretics and the Freemasons.

    It has suddenly all become clearer.


  • #40
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    The parts regarding dendochronology and ice-cores for showing that there was some sort of "Climate-shock" in the 7th century. At least they have verifiable scientific data. However when I try googling for: bolivia comet 6th century

    I get this very thread as the first entry!

    The second entry seems far more interesting, it's from Google books
    Comet/Asteroid Impacts and Human Society: An Interdisciplinary Approach

    Editors are:
    Dr. Peter T. BOBROWSKY
    Geological Survey of Canada
    &
    Dr. Hans Rickman
    Uppsala Astronomical Observatory
    http://books.google.ie/books?id=Gpwgm022ltMC&lpg=PA64&ots=YKZOrC3OWR&dq=bolivia%20comet%206th%20century%22&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q&f=false

    In it is the following:
    Tree-Rings Indicate global Environmental Downturns that could have been Caused by Comet Debris --by Prof (Emeritus) Mike Baillie of QUB
    http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/gap/Staff/AcademicStaff/ProfEmeritusMikeBaillie/

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=Gpwgm022ltMC&lpg=PA64&ots=YKZOrC3OWR&dq=bolivia%20comet%206th%20century%22&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Either way I don't see anything in Prof Baillie report about Bolivia specificly. That and he's just advancing a theory for reason that there was stunted Tree-Ring growth as oppose to claiming that it was the actual reason.


  • #41
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    CDfm wrote: »
    If we put our heads together we could............ go back to Pelagius, the earliest recorded Irish Christian & our "gnostic" monks ............ Palladius going native, Patrick's kidnapping.......... the Celtic Church & Pope Adrian's Laudabiliter ....Knights Templar ...The Flight of the EarlsHeretics and the Freemasons.

    It has suddenly all become clearer.

    We could be onto a winner there - The Tara Codex :p


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  • #42
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    We could be onto a winner there - The Tara Codex :p

    Epologue -The Mary Magdalene Connection in 2003 Mary Robinson held a meeting ..........click the link for pics

    http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html


  • #43
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    CDfm wrote: »
    Epologue -The Mary Magdalene Connection in 2003 Mary Robinson held a meeting ..........click the link for pics

    http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html

    you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site on Irish chief of name scandal. (Mac Carthaigh Mór Hoax)
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm

    The bould Mary has a photo in there as well.


  • #44
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dubhthach wrote: »
    you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site .

    His Robert Emmets grave piece is class.


  • #45
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    dubhthach wrote: »
    you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site on Irish chief of name scandal. (Mac Carthaigh Mór Hoax)
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm

    The bould Mary has a photo in there as well.

    I love how this whole Irish Chieftain malarky totally ignores that as all male descendants to the 4th generation from a previous chieftain were eligible for election as chieftain then logically following a patrilinier line of descent according to primogeniture to determine who the current 'chieftain' is completely pointless .

    Did enjoy all the cloak and dagger hoopla Pete McCarthy describes in McCarthy's Bar around meeting 'The' McCarthy in North Africa (Morocco?)


  • #46
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I love how this whole Irish Chieftain malarky totally ignores that as all male descendants to the 4th generation from a previous chieftain were eligible for election as chieftain then logically following a patrilinier line of descent according to primogeniture to determine who the current 'chieftain' is completely pointless .

    Did enjoy all the cloak and dagger hoopla Pete McCarthy describes in McCarthy's Bar around meeting 'The' McCarthy in North Africa (Morocco?)

    Indeed the problem ties in with the fact that the "Ulster Chief of Arms" (McLysaght at time I believe?) decided to go with primogeniture when it came to recognising titular "Chief's of the name" back in the 1940's.

    Of course for the likes of the O'Brien that's tied in with the lineage of Baron Inchiquin which was cadet branch of Earl of Thomond line (extinct). Of course it helps that the current O'Brien also tests positive for L226 snp on his Y-chromosome which appears to be linked to the Dál gCais (Irish Type III genetic cluster)


  • #47
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Indeed the problem ties in with the fact that the "Ulster Chief of Arms" (McLysaght at time I believe?) decided to go with primogeniture when it came to recognising titular "Chief's of the name" back in the 1940's.

    Ulster King of Arms is the title, but AFAIK McLysaght never held it and was simply 'Chief Herald of Ireland'. He did some great work, but I disagree with him on primogeniture and on the introduction of what is now described as 'clan' coats of arms. I've often wondered was he forced by some penny-concious civil servant to raise a few quid for his office. One relatively recent grant (non-chief of the name) I'm familiar with was disgraceful, very poorly researched.
    P.


  • #48
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jesus Nut wrote: »

    Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right

    This guy often takes myth and legend and presents them as historic fact. A bit like a history conspiracy theorist.

    Your post hit on a couple of subject area's, so when the answer was not readily available people discussed the available sources and what they indicate.

    As far as people here can see there was that wheat crop/harvest failure occurred around that time. That is recorded.

    Wheat is susceptible to wet weather and was not a popular crop for that reason so that in itself would not have caused a famine. Oats was a more popular crop because Irish climate conditions are not the best for wheat. (Even today the wheat for flour for white bread sold in Ireland is imported from France for that reason)

    There is nothing to support an exodus from Ireland .

    Was "it" caused by a meteor strike , well that is not recorded in available sources.Could the church of Rome have suppressed it -unlikely at that time.

    Is there geological/climate data available to back it up. Nothing definitive. If you were to take 2010's winter and the Icelandic volcano and other winters this century as a comparison this is the type of info you get

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69342717

    So I can't see how he reaches his conclusions.

    Can you ?


  • #49
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I always knew we were special.
    "The fact is, Rome began early to covet Ireland. Once they got possession, it was necessary for them to destroy the influence of Jeremiah .
    and

    E3E32A02AE7048F4AFFBFA529F07A4AA-0000345227-0002708665-01024L-53DF88765C4742E6B26BE4CBCC0346DC.jpg
    http://www.cryaloud.com/ark_covenant_jeremiah_ireland.htm


  • #50
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm gonna lock this thread, obviously the parts about climate change/shocks are interesting, and I do think there are some interesting sources that can be referenced in the scientific literature from likes of Icecores/Bog pollen count/Tree rings I don't think the premise of a Comet been source of such a 6th century "climate shock" can be verified either scientifically or historically.

    If people want to have a thread specifically about weather events and their effects on history I'd be all for a seperate thread been created. I can think of following off top of my head: (and there are lots of others)
    • Little Ice Age -- end of Norse Greenland colony / effect on Northern Europe
    • North Atlantic storms and their effects on Invasion fleets -- Armada / Bantry Bay / D-Day
    • Evidence of Irish dark-ages from Bog pollen samples

    etc.

    Prefably with links to sources etc.


This discussion has been closed.
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