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The sun is dead!! Mini iceage???

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    So I take it that that graph represents an increase in solar activity which could mean less cooler winters (than the previous two)??

    I think theres a big enough delay between the two, and its being predicted as a pretty low maximum either way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭BEASTERLY


    I think theres a big enough delay between the two, and its being predicted as a pretty low maximum either way.

    Plus a connection between the two is far from proven or concrete. There may not be a connection at all.

    Between irish winter temperatures and solar activity that is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    The sun at the moment is blowing alot of hot smoke and not much fire, Even though activity has increased and it was going to,it still is a long way off any mental surge.Still Dalton potential.

    Any way found this report.

    Top Scientist Says New Solar Wobble to Prolong Global Cooling


    • May 31, 2011
    3263841_com_solar_sys.jpgOur Climate Changes with Solar Gravity - NASA[/I

    ]As a new solar minimum takes our planet towards global cooling an increasing number of scientists give credence to a new theory blaming our Sun's wobble.


    It started in 2007 when scientists saw that gravitational forces in our solar system may have a huge impact on Earth's climate. Professor Ivanka Charvátová, CSc. from the Geophysical Institute of the Czech Academy of Sciences, explains why there is suddenly so much interest in her theory in an exclusive interview with klimatskeptik.cz.

    Professor Charvátová calls it Solar Inertial Motion (SIM) and she claims it will have serious impacts on our climate. She says a predictable "wobble" of our Sun called barycenter shift alters Earth's weather patterns. Few climatologists have yet studied this phenomenon. But the evidence supporting Professor Charvátová's SIM theory is becoming ever more compelling.
    Our Wobbling Sun

    Increased international interest in the SIM 'wobble effect' began after Australian scientist Dr. Richard Mackey published a paper addressing the effects of the barycenter shift in The Journal of Coastal Research in 2007. Mackey drew inspiration from the work of the late Rhodes Fairbridge.




    Fairbridge was one of the first English-speaking experts to appreciate the significance of Professor Charvátová's findings. The Czech expert had suddenly stolen the limelight because, as she says „I was the only one in the whole world who got the 23rd sunspot cycle prediction right."
    She recalls, "Even before my major discovery came, Prof R.W.Fairbridge contacted me after I published an article about SIM periodicity in Paris." The publication was in her former name, Jakubcová.
    Climatologists Accused of Ignoring New Science

    When asked how much of this groundbreaking new science the UN's beleaguered climate panel, the IPCC, took into account in their global warming reports, she answered, "Nothing at all. They are allergic to SIM."

    She explained that traditional thinking only considered science that supports the greenhouse gas theory which, in turn, attributes a substantial component of climate change to human influence. Professor Charvátová laments that the IPCC still fails to consider a whole range of climate forcing phenomena with any solar-terrestrial link, e.g. cosmic rays, geomagnetic, solar gravitational forces, volcanic activity, etc.



    Despite the IPCC's lack of interest in the issue scientists have long known that the Sun's position in space moves about the solar system's center of mass (barycenter) in cycles that repeat themselves every 178 to 180 years. Records show that this increased shift occurred in 1632, 1811 and significantly impacted Earth's temperatures each time. We are now in the midst of another such period that first began in 1990 and will run until 2013.

    The impact of this new SIM minimum could last until 2091 because of the 900-year "great inequality" of the motion of Jupiter and Saturn.
    Referring to another respected SIM researcher, Theodor Landscheidt, Ivanka says, „We agree that in the first half of the 21st century the solar activity might be lower and even the temperatures might go down." Mainstream science is only now slowly waking up to SIM theory as reported by Govert Schilling's article, 'Did Quiet Sun Cause Little Ice Age After All?' (May 26, 2011) for AAA.org's Science Mag.

    Ivanka and her supporters fear Earth may even face climate calamity not due to heat but from global cooling as cosmic forces combine with increased volcanic and earthquake activity to plunge our planet into a repeat of 1816, the "year without a summer," a calamitous episode known to scientists and historians as "eighteen hundred and froze to death." Experts fear we may now be headed into extreme weather events that will be potentially far worse.

    The infamous year of 1816 was beset with powerful changes in magnetism, major volcanic eruptions, and the wobbling of the Sun's position. It is believed that the coincidence of those powerful forces of nature propelled our planet into the widespread famine, drought, and destructive snows and rains that so many historians documented. Only recently have scientists thought to make the link with those corellated climatic events and solar "wobble" and come up with the SIM theory.
    Greenhouse Gas Theory Disputed Among Independent Researchers

    Among the biggest fans of this new science are skeptics critical of the UN's preferred theory about climate, the greenhouse gas effect (GHE), which tells us that carbon dioxide (CO2) among other atmospheric gases, traps solar heat. The UN insists the GHE is key to our planet's climate. But the predicted steep rises in global temperatures by GHE believers hasn't occurred this century. Also, the Climategate scandal shook confidence in the science surrounding the GHE after researchers were accused of fudging their data and refusing to disclose their calculations.

    Asked about her associations with climate skeptics Ivanka replied she consulted many, "For instance Prof. O. Manuel, the former chief researcher of the Apollo project. They even published a book 'Slaying the Sky Dragon,' a book she says, that documents „the scandals of the climate change research and thus also the uncertainties in the temperature measurements of the last 40 years or so."

    Professor Charvátová does gives us some hope that we will survive this new cooling period: "You may find it comforting that no matter how the Sun wiggles, every 179 years it comes back to a regular trefoil path."

    Ivanka and other scientists insist that our sun, like most stars, has much variability and climate science must now begin to properly account for this. She cautions against blaming human emissions of CO2 when a previously ill-considered natural cause is more likely the key to our further understanding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    coronal-mass-ejection-june-2011.jpg?1307480806


    Simply stunning flare from Sunspot complex 1226-1227 .

    Only an M flare so nothing to worry about.

    It was just beautiful.
    A big thanks to Jake1 for pointing it out an her thread.
    Watch it again here, views of last 48 hours,takes a good while to load on slower connections.
    http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/SDO_Self_Updating_6.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭red menace


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/ice_age/
    The announcement made on 14 June (18:00 UK time) comes from scientists at the US National Solar Observatory (NSO) and US Air Force Research Laboratory. Three different analyses of the Sun's recent behaviour all indicate that a period of unusually low solar activity may be about to begin.
    The Sun normally follows an 11-year cycle of activity. The current cycle, Cycle 24, is now supposed to be ramping up towards maximum strength. Increased numbers of sunspots and other indications ought to be happening: but in fact results so far are most disappointing. Scientists at the NSO now suspect, based on data showing decades-long trends leading to this point, that Cycle 25 may not happen at all.
    This could have major implications for the Earth's climate. According to a statement issued by the NSO, announcing the research:

    http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml


    Could be interesting times ahead


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    Was just reading about it at Space.com. Interesting stuff.

    Just a thought, but maybe this thread should be combined with the " The sun is dead" thread ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    You'd have to wonder, with all the worry about global warming and man-made climate change, if there is any possibility that there could be some kind of a feedback system between the sun and the earth, unknown to us at the current time, that means that when the earth starts warming up, (as we have caused it to), that the sun basically cools down for a bit!

    I know this sounds somewhere between pure silly and a mad belief that God is at the universal controls, but maybe we shouldn't get too cocky about ourselves yet on planet earth, we still don't fully understand the human brain yet, how dreams are made, how human memory works, etc, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that mother nature has an influence outside of our earthly little home that kicks in to save us from ourselves every now and again!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Here is the latest Butterfly Diagram.

    butterflypatterofsunspots.gif?w=500&h=312

    Click on image to enlarge.


    And bit of info bout it for those who don't understand.

    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1010/1010.3131v1.pdf


    And the Sun's magnetic field is still on the decline,as explained in previous posts


    NN_Sep11_Sungraph_400px.jpgThe average magnetic field strength in sunspot umbras has been steadily declining for over a decade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,430 ✭✭✭weisses


    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/14apr_thewatchedpot/


    Its all a hype .... all those so called scientists just looking for something to do to justify their subsidized jobs

    In April everyone is happy and in June its all gone

    The sun is 4.5 billion years old :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Very interesting stuff.

    However its important to remember that (as far as I know) there has been no proven link that the Little Ice Age was directly connected to the Maunder Minimum. Volcanic activity, thermohaline circulation changes or a combination of a number of things may have led to the Little Ice Age.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    You'd have to wonder, with all the worry about global warming and man-made climate change, if there is any possibility that there could be some kind of a feedback system between the sun and the earth, unknown to us at the current time, that means that when the earth starts warming up, (as we have caused it to), that the sun basically cools down for a bit!

    This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on boards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭BEASTERLY


    You'd have to wonder, with all the worry about global warming and man-made climate change, if there is any possibility that there could be some kind of a feedback system between the sun and the earth, unknown to us at the current time, that means that when the earth starts warming up, (as we have caused it to), that the sun basically cools down for a bit!
    :eek::confused::eek:

    I like how the other planets in the solar system have no say, just earth!:P

    Seriously though, you must be taking the piss.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,430 ✭✭✭weisses


    BEASTERLY wrote: »
    :eek::confused::eek:

    I like how the other planets in the solar system have no say, just earth!:P

    Seriously though, you must be taking the piss.

    He thought this was the conspiracy theory forum .... give em a break man :D;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭sparks24


    You'd have to wonder, with all the worry about global warming and man-made climate change, if there is any possibility that there could be some kind of a feedback system between the sun and the earth, unknown to us at the current time, that means that when the earth starts warming up, (as we have caused it to), that the sun basically cools down for a bit!

    I know this sounds somewhere between pure silly and a mad belief that God is at the universal controls, but maybe we shouldn't get too cocky about ourselves yet on planet earth, we still don't fully understand the human brain yet, how dreams are made, how human memory works, etc, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that mother nature has an influence outside of our earthly little home that kicks in to save us from ourselves every now and again!

    my brain hurts :( i believe it was some feedback received from reading your post


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,622 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Very interesting stuff.

    However its important to remember that (as far as I know) there has been no proven link that the Little Ice Age was directly connected to the Maunder Minimum. Volcanic activity, thermohaline circulation changes or a combination of a number of things may have led to the Little Ice Age.

    So obviously these factors are not at play to any great extent today in tandem with low sunspot activity.

    by the way does anyone here believe in Lovelock's Gaia theory?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭planetX


    Maybe our CO2 emissions will prevent the mini ice-age. I'm going to do my bit by making a few extra car journeys:D
    I'm so sick of climate scientists looking for headlines/funding. I refuse to lose any sleep over possible global warming/cooling. We're an adaptable species.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    mike65 wrote: »
    This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on boards.

    That's what they told your man who discovered that the earth wasn't flat! ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭morticia2


    planetX wrote: »
    Maybe our CO2 emissions will prevent the mini ice-age. I'm going to do my bit by making a few extra car journeys:D
    I'm so sick of climate scientists looking for headlines/funding. I refuse to lose any sleep over possible global warming/cooling. We're an adaptable species.


    I would lose more sleep over cooling, in this country, actually. Rocketing fuel prices + arctic winters = people freezing to death. Cold causes about 20,000 extra winter deaths in the elderly (UK stats for a NORMAL UK winter, but I doubt our housing insulation is any better than theirs).

    I have a horrible feeling that peak oil may be a serious test of our adaptability, especially under colder conditions.

    Expensive and scarce fossil fuels + not enough trees = difficult to keep warm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    so does this cause colder winters in ireland and uk? so will next winter be like the last 2?!?:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,622 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    so does this cause colder winters in ireland and uk? so will next winter be like the last 2?!?:D

    it means in a few years you'll be able to skate on the liffey. it will test the resolve of even the most die hard cold lover- i mean what if connecting to the internet is no longer possible in Ireland. it will be the end of the world as we know it!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    are you being sarcastic?:o




  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13792479
    Solar predictions bring heat and light

    Over the last few years, the politics of climate change have been amply forged in the fires of a changeable Sun.
    And the story is here again, in the form of research unveiled this week at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society (AAS) Solar Physics Division in Las Cruces, New Mexico.
    The solar science, described graphically in a Discover Magazine post - "an east/west river of gas" which "flows under the surface of the Sun" that can't be seen directly but which is inferred from "sound waves that travel from it to the surface" - is fascinating.
    And what it suggests is that the Sun appears set to quieten further over the next solar cycle than it already has - with lower sunspot activity, and perhaps marginally lower energy output.
    But as to the implications on Earth - well, for anyone who's followed this story for a while, they're very familiar, and the telling of them is laced with equally familiar political overtones.
    The big question is this: if the predictions of an impending reduction in solar activity turn into reality, what would that mean for the global climate?
    And that's why it becomes a political football - because if the answer is that it counteracts global warming, still more if it leads to global cooling, then moves away from fossil fuel use are at best unnecessary and at worst harmful.
    The comparator here is the Maunder Minimum - a period of low solar activity running in the late 1600s and early 1700s - a "grand solar minimum" - which co-incided with a period of colder than usual temperatures - at least, in parts of Europe.
    So you can probably name a few organisations likely to pounce on this latest work as evidence that another cool period is coming, and that society's logical response is to drill, baby, drill and burn, baby, burn like never before.
    The Register doesn't disappoint, suggesting the solar cycle predictions will become "the science story of the century" and mean that the Earth is "heading into a mini Ice Age" - while the Daily Telegraph's James Delingpole treats it as fact - "It's official: a new Ice Age is on its way".


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    John Coleman (ex-owner of the weather channel) talks about the reports in recent days from NASA and NOAA, which seem to suggest that ol' Sol "could" be headed for a Maunder like minimum again.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub




  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    Where is the jetsteam in the southern hemisphere and northern over Russia to the US in relation to more recent averages?

    Is it further south across the northern hemisphere and further north across the southern?
    This would link a weaker solar output to a weakening of the low pressures in the ITCZ which pushes the jet stream north and south with the monsoons

    We need charts!!!!!!!!


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    We examine the climate response to solar irradiance changes between the late 17th-century Maunder Minimum and the late 18th century. Global average temperature changes are small (about 0.3° to 0.4°C) in both a climate model and empirical reconstructions. However, regional temperature changes are quite large. In the model, these occur primarily through a forced shift toward the low index state of the Arctic Oscillation/North Atlantic Oscillation as solar irradiance decreases. This leads to colder temperatures over the Northern Hemisphere continents, especially in winter (1° to 2°C), in agreement with historical records and proxy data for surface temperatures.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/294/5549/2149.abstract

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalton_Minimum
    Like the Maunder Minimum and Spörer Minimum, the Dalton Minimum coincided with a period of lower-than-average global temperatures. The Oberlach Station in Germany, for example, experienced a 2.0°C decline over 20 years


  • Posts: 0 Kallie Dry Widow


    studies of the solar interior, visible surface, and the corona
    indicate that the next 11-year solar sunspot cycle, Cycle 25, will be
    greatly reduced or may not happen at all.

    Spot numbers and other solar activity rise and fall about every 11 years,
    which is half of the Sun’s 22-year magnetic interval since the Sun’s
    magnetic poles reverse with each cycle. An immediate question is whether
    this slowdown presages a second Maunder Minimum, a 70-year period with
    virtually no sunspots during 1645-1715.

    Hill is the lead author on one of three papers on these results being
    presented this week. Using data from the Global Oscillation Network Group
    (GONG) of six observing stations around the world, the team translates
    surface pulsations caused by sound reverberating through the Sun into models
    of the internal structure. One of their discoveries is an east-west zonal
    wind flow inside the Sun, called the torsional oscillation, which starts at
    mid-latitudes and migrates towards the equator. The latitude of this wind
    stream matches the new spot formation in each cycle, and successfully
    predicted the late onset of the current Cycle 24.

    “We expected to see the start of the zonal flow for Cycle 25 by now,” Hill
    explained, “but we see no sign of it. This indicates that the start of Cycle
    25 may be delayed to 2021 or 2022, or may not happen at all.”

    For
    typical sunspots this magnetism has a strength of 2,500 to 3,500 gauss
    (Earth’s magnetic field is less than 1 gauss at the surface); the field must
    reach at least 1,500 gauss to form a dark spot.

    Using more than 13 years of sunspot data collected at the McMath-Pierce
    Telescope at Kitt Peak in Arizona, Penn and Livingston observed that the
    average field strength declined about 50 gauss per year during Cycle 23 and
    now in Cycle 24. They also observed that spot temperatures have risen
    exactly as expected for such changes in the magnetic field. If the trend
    continues, the field strength will drop below the 1,500 gauss threshold and
    spots will largely disappear as the magnetic field is no longer strong
    enough to overcome convective forces on the solar surface.

    slowing of the “rush
    to the poles,” the rapid poleward march of magnetic activity observed in the
    Sun’s faint corona. Altrock used four decades of observations with NSO’s
    40-cm (16-inch) coronagraphic telescope at Sunspot.

    “A key thing to understand is that those wonderful, delicate coronal
    features are actually powerful, robust magnetic structures rooted in the
    interior of the Sun,” Altrock explained. “Changes we see in the corona
    reflect changes deep inside the Sun.”

    Altrock used a photometer to map iron heated to 2 million degrees C (3.6
    million F). Stripped of half of its electrons, it is easily concentrated by
    magnetism rising from the Sun. In a well-known pattern, new solar activity
    emerges first at about 70 degrees latitude at the start of a cycle, then
    towards the equator as the cycle ages. At the same time, the new magnetic
    fields push remnants of the older cycle as far as 85 degrees poleward.

    “In cycles 21 through 23, solar maximum occurred when this rush appeared at
    an average latitude of 76 degrees,” Altrock said. “Cycle 24 started out late
    and slow and may not be strong enough to create a rush to the poles,
    indicating we’ll see a very weak solar maximum in 2013, if at all. If the
    rush to the poles fails to complete, this creates a tremendous dilemma for
    the theorists, as it would mean that Cycle 23’s magnetic field will not
    completely disappear from the polar regions (the rush to the poles
    accomplishes this feat). No one knows what the Sun will do in that case.”

    All three of these lines of research to point to the familiar sunspot cycle
    shutting down for a while.

    “If we are right,” Hill concluded, “this could be the last solar maximum
    we’ll see for a few decades.

    http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~deforest/SPD-sunspot-release/SPD_solar_cycle_release.txt

    so cold winters & cool damp summers for a few decades so


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭red menace




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    We see clearly that the northern hemisphere of the Sun is near the reversal of the poles. The Pole Shift occurs only during a solar maximum.

    Very interesting indeed.

    polarfieldsfiltered.gif


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  • Even more interesting is the fact that the south pole is not (yet) reversing.

    Has the pole shifted to the equater?


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