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Proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes

12467

Comments

  • #92
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    grahambo wrote: »
    I'd have "floppybits" too after maybe 4 or 5 beers, so kind of a null point.
    #brewersdroop

    If I didn't know them, then probably not, no.

    If I did know them, I don't know to be honest.
    Single for nearly 2 years now after a 9 year relationship, hasn't happened yet.
    Probably not, to much hassle.

    I only asked as I was curious. You'd want to see the minefield when you don't drink. :)


  • #93
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,916 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    No, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

    Can you show any evidence to back up what you're saying? Can you show me a curriculum outline that suggests all men are rapists at one of these classes.

    Of course you can't, because that's not how it's taught.

    Of course they're not taught like that in reality. That sounds like something your hear about on a red pill forum.

    Every time these discussions come up and the same few posters pretend these courses are all about how men are potential rapists "stick to beat men" etc. Then you n every one of these threads I bring up Richie Sadlier who did a course on sexuality and consent with transition year students.

    The course he delivers has absolutely nothing to do with beating all men or calling all men potential rapists. But you'll ignore this message and go back to the "poor me" narrative, to which you seem so wedded.

    Here's the podcast where Richie discusses the course and this interactions with the transition years. It's fascinating and it explodes the myth that consent is as simple as x y z such as dont rape anyone.

    https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains/bonus-episode-1124-the-belfast-rape-trial-sexual-consent-dressingroom-culture


  • #94
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Do you understand the difference between intent to commit a crime and committing a crime? Very, very different things. That's not my opinion, that's the law...

    So are you only talking about the law here or are you talking about peoples intentions? You're flip flopping to suit whatever part of the discussion suits your opinion. Cause if you're only talking about people getting convicted of rape then surely the classes could just be about how to not get caught right? Would you hang out with a man that doesn't believe in consent but they don't think they're physically able outright ignore it? Do you not count people that were raped but were unable to secure a conviction? Because in the eyes of the law they weren't raped either.



    If you're talking about how best to improve communication between people to prevent unwanted sexual contact, then you're dealing with intent and how to communicate that desire and understanding the other persons intent and desires.


  • #95
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    The lack of raping actually does make them a lot less rapey.

    Like married men with their wives 20 or 30 years ago...


  • #96
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    xckjoo wrote: »
    So are you only talking about the law here or are you talking about peoples intentions? You're flip flopping to suit whatever part of the discussion suits your opinion.

    No, you claimed that women are just as rapey as men even though they can't physcially rape someone. I am pointing out that logically and legally, someone who does not rape is not as rapey as someone who does rape.

    I don't know what you're struggling with there but TL;DR:

    Raped someone = rapist
    Didn't rape someone = not a rapist
    xckjoo wrote: »
    Cause if you're only talking about people getting convicted of rape then surely the classes could just be about how to not get caught right? Would you hang out with a man that doesn't believe in consent but they don't think they're physically able outright ignore it? Do you not count people that were raped but were unable to secure a conviction? Because in the eyes of the law they weren't raped either.

    This is a bizarre paragraph I'm not going to respond to clarify I was talking about what rape is and what rape is not, and the difference between 'intent' and actually committing a crime. I was not talking about whether or not someone has secured a conviction.


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  • #97
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    That suggests you think some people are born rapists and there is no way to stop them. That might be true for a very small number of sociopaths but in general I think rape is very preventable, and education is a part of this.

    What are you basing that on though?

    I asked you a very simple question about the effectiveness of consent classes and you responded with "I don't know".

    :confused:


  • #98
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Boggles wrote: »
    What are you basing that on though?

    I asked you a very simple question about the effectiveness of consent classes and you responded with "I don't know".

    :confused:

    Actually, I responded by pointing out we have public education on a variety of public health and safety issues, like drink driving, wearing a seatbelt and overhead electricity wires.

    And you said they were demonstrably effective.

    So I think there's a strong argument there alone.


  • #99
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Actually, I responded by pointing out we have public education on a variety of public health and safety issues, like drink driving, wearing a seatbelt and overhead electricity wires.

    Would you say this was a ads on tv and radio or was it more law enforcement on the Drink Driving and Seat belts mainly?


  • #100
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Floppybits wrote: »
    Would you say this was a ads on tv and radio or was it more law enforcement on the Drink Driving and Seat belts mainly?

    I'd say it was mainly the law enforcement, but that the ads have contributed strongly to a change in culture where something that was once common and acceptable is now widely seen as unacceptable.

    I think the same approach could be adopted here, with stronger sentences for those convicted of rape.


  • #101
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Actually, I responded by pointing out we have public education on a variety of public health and safety issues, like drink driving, wearing a seatbelt and overhead electricity wires.

    And you said they were demonstrably effective.

    Exactly, problem identified, education, problem partly solved.

    But back to my question.

    Is there evidence that suggests that misunderstanding consent is a reason for sexual assault and do these consent classes lead to a decrease in assault?


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  • #102
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    No, you claimed that women are just as rapey as men even though they can't physcially rape someone. I am pointing out that logically and legally, someone who does not rape is not as rapey as someone who does rape.

    I don't know what you're struggling with there but TL;DR:

    Raped someone = rapist
    Didn't rape someone = not a rapist



    This is a bizarre paragraph I'm not going to respond to clarify I was talking about what rape is and what rape is not, and the difference between 'intent' and actually committing a crime. I was not talking about whether or not someone has secured a conviction.


    Except I used the word "rapey" (which you also pointed out in your reply) to signify that it was behaviour suggestive of someone that would commit rape given the opportunity (and ability). I didn't use the words raped or rapist. You introduced them here as if I did or as if they were interchangeable with the word "rapey" (not even sure it's a real world TBH, only ever used it in a colloquial fashion). If you're not familiar with the word or are not clear on my intention with using it then that's fine. I'd rather you ask for clarity though instead of misinterpreting and then doubling down and allocating intent in language that clearly wasn't there.


  • #103
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Boggles wrote: »
    Exactly, problem identified, education, problem partly solved.

    But back to my question.

    Is there evidence that suggests that misunderstanding consent is a reason for sexual assault and do these consent classes lead to a decrease in assault?

    I've already answered that question. Putting it in bold doesn't change that. Feel free to go back through the thread to read me previous answer.


  • #104
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Except I used the word "rapey" (which you also pointed out in your reply) to signify that it was behaviour suggestive of someone that would commit rape given the opportunity (and ability). I didn't use the words raped or rapist. You introduced them here as if I did or as if they were interchangeable with the word "rapey" (not even sure it's a real world TBH, only ever used it in a colloquial fashion). If you're not familiar with the word or are not clear on my intention with using it then that's fine. I'd rather you ask for clarity though instead of misinterpreting and then doubling down and allocating intent in language that clearly wasn't there.

    Maybe you should use real words and be more clear in your intent?


  • #105
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I've already answered that question. Putting it in bold doesn't change that. Feel free to go back through the thread to read me previous answer.

    So you haven't a clue fair enough.

    I personally think we need less people advocating for things based on ignorance it just leads to bad policies.


  • #106
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Boggles wrote: »
    So you haven't a clue fair enough.

    I personally think we need less people advocating for things based on ignorance it just leads to bad policies.

    What I said was we don't have data so we should run a trial to get the data.

    And for that you're accusing me of ignorance.

    Quite bizarre.

    There is really no other way of getting data than by running experiments.


  • #107
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    What I said was we don't have data so we should run a trial to get the data.

    And for that you're accusing me of ignorance.

    Quite bizarre.

    There is really no other way of getting data than by running experiments.

    Like I said consent classes are not new.

    There must be data, I can't find any which leads me to believe they are not effective.

    But like I said if they are, I'd have no problem with them.

    But I feel it's a box ticking exercise by colleges, probably to appease insurance companies.


  • #108
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Maybe you should use real words and be more clear in your intent?


    Commonly used word. I would assume most people would have heard and used it in their lives. But If you're unsure of the meaning of something, then look it up or ask. Google throws up a slew of definitions in line with my usage. No shame in not knowing, but it's pretty embarrassing to assume the wrong conclusion and then argue it.


  • #109
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Boggles wrote: »
    Like I said consent classes are not new.

    There must be data, I can't find any which leads me to believe they are not effective.

    But like I said if they are, I'd have no problem with them.

    But I feel it's a box ticking exercise by colleges, probably to appease insurance companies.

    You can't find any so you're making a massive assumption... It's just as likely that being a relatively new concept no reliable data is available yet.

    But since you've already acknowledged that public campaigns for other topics are effective, why wouldn't they be on consent?

    We run them on everything from domestic violence to paying for your TV licence, so why not on this? Collect three years worth of data, or maybe five, and if it's effective keep it up, and if it's not, try something else.


  • #110
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Commonly used word. I would assume most people would have heard and used it in their lives. But If you're unsure of the meaning of something, then look it up or ask. Google throws up a slew of definitions in line with my usage. No shame in not knowing, but it's pretty embarrassing to assume the wrong conclusion and then argue it.

    I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed man. You are trying to claim women are as rapey as men and that is a ridiculous proposition. You are now trying to weasel out of it by claiming 'rapey doesn't mean rape' and insulting me to boot.

    You're contributing nothing of value to the thread, and I'm quite certain I'm not the one who should be embarrassed here.


  • #111
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    You'll find out that the likes of Blackwells definition of consent is going to be far more prescriptive than the average laymans and the classes will be coming with a whole heap of other baggage that will then be enforceable via a kangaroo court


    They can f*k off with themselves


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  • #112
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    the more revealing they dress, the greater the risk they're taking.

    I hate the term rape culture. I hate the talk of consent classes being needed. This ugly sh*t above though, that's worse than any of the others. Horrendous.


  • #113
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed man. You are trying to claim women are as rapey as men and that is a ridiculous proposition. You are now trying to weasel out of it by claiming 'rapey doesn't mean rape' and insulting me to boot.

    You're contributing nothing of value to the thread, and I'm quite certain I'm not the one who should be embarrassed here.

    Well I always associated 'being rapey' as not meaning rape but with making the person uncomfortable due their behaviour. In my days they would have been called creeps or pervs.


  • #114
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    But since you've already acknowledged that public campaigns for other topics are effective, why wouldn't they be on consent?

    Because to run a campaign you first identify the problem. e.g not wearing seat belts are bad.

    There is no evidence to suggest misunderstanding of consent leads to sexual assault.

    So in a campaign for people to wear seat belts you are not targeting the people who wear seat belts, you are targeting the ones who don't.

    So the logical conclusion would be for you to target rapists or potential rapists not the vast majority of people who don't rape.

    Unless you think all men are potential rapists?


  • #115
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Floppybits wrote: »
    Well I always associated 'being rapey' as not meaning rape but with making the person uncomfortable due their behaviour. In my days they would have been called creeps or pervs.

    Here's the first defintion that comes up in Google:
    (comparative more rapey, superlative most rapey) (informal) Inclined to commit rape (sexual assault). (informal) Featuring or characterized by rape. a rapey novel. (informal) Suggestive of rape.


  • #116
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    There's a very interesting contradiction on how men are reacting to this conversation.

    On the one hand, it's very much #notallmen, and men getting offended at the idea that as a group they are being treated as potential rapists.

    On the other hand, telling women not to get drunk or wear revealing clothes suggests that we actually should be treating men as a group as potential rapists.

    So which is it lads?

    Was with you up until a point on this thread but you've just become everything you're rallying against i.e. sexist. ''Interesting how men are reacting to this conversation'' suggesting it's all men. Would it it kill you to quantify that you mean some men if that's what you mean? Actually, how do you even know which posters are men at all?!

    That ''which is it lads'' sign off at the end is very telling too.


  • #117
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Boggles wrote: »
    So the logical conclusion would be for you to target rapists or potential rapists not the vast majority of people who don't rape.

    Ummm yeah that'd be ideal but we don't know who they are so we target everyone, and that's exactly the same logic we use with drink driving campaigns. We don't know who they are, we know they are only a minority, but we're trying to change something in society so we get the message out to everyone.


  • #118
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Was with you up until a point on this thread but you've just become everything you're rallying against i.e. sexist. ''Interesting how men are reacting to this conversation'' suggesting it's all men. Would it it kill you to quantify that you mean some men if that's what you mean? Actually, how do you even know which posters are men at all?!

    That ''which is it lads'' sign off at the end is very telling too.

    #NotAllMen

    Happy?


  • #119
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Did you read the bit about the increase in assaults on campus?

    And when these perpetrators are confronted, are they saying "Oh I didn't know"?
    :D
    I doubt it.

    It is a silly idea. Somebody is trying to create work for friends. No more.


  • #120
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    The lack of raping actually does make them a lot less rapey.

    Has a woman ever been convicted of rape in this jurisdiction? Is it possible by our legal system?


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  • #121
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    topper75 wrote: »
    And when these perpetrators are confronted, are they saying "Oh I didn't know"?
    :D
    I doubt it.

    It is a silly idea. Somebody is trying to create work for friends. No more.

    Actually the defendant very often claims they didn't know the alleged victim didn't consent. A cultural change to enthusiastic, affirmative consent would cut out a lot of the "well I thought she was up for it because...."


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