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Primary school enrollment form/special needs

  • 21-01-2019 10:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭


    I was just filling in my child’s primary school enrollment form when I realized the section on whether the child has any diagnosis is bothering me. He does have a diagnosis although because of all the interventions we have put in place he is flying. The school says it is so they can plan teacher/resources for next year. I am a teacher myself and know that numbers for the school and the profile of the pupils does not have to be sent until April/May. Are they weeding out how many pupils with special needs they wish to take? I know for a fact in the last school I taught in that the local principals met to divide out pupils with additional needs and pupils outside catchments.
    The reason I’m so worried is because although we are 400 metres from the school, we are still outside the catchment area so it may knock him from getting a place when they take into account his additional needs. I am tempted to mark the box ‘no’ even though that infuriates me. Then if he receives a place I would accept and then inform the school of his diagnosis. Not a great start but there is zero need for the school to be asking this early about diagnosis. Also I would be nervous that the form says that if there are any inaccuracies on the form the place may be lost.
    Any advice welcome


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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would be honest and give his diagnosis. If the school cuts him based on that I wouldn’t want my child in that school anyway. It would be very unprofessional and unlikely this would happen but if it did I would see it as better to know the true ethos of the school ahead of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 hilarymcl


    In our school we also ask if prospective pupils have a diagnosis. If they do it we look at allocating resource teaching to that class and can plan for ways of making school life easier for that child. I think its useful to flag your child´s diagnosis at this point and as a previous poster mentioned, if they weed your child out at this point because of a diagnosis that is not a school you want for your child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭juneg


    I think being outside the catchment area is your real problem here if the school is oversubscribed. Read their enrolment policy which should be on their website. If you live outside the catchment area and they are obliged to take all applicants from within their catchment area first then your application is not a priority regardless of your child's needs. You should be honest about his needs and his achievements too. It is to your credit that you have interventions in place for your child so early and that makes it a whole lot easier for the school because they're not begging for resources for an undiagnosed child. Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    They don’t need to know the needs of a child until resource hours are applied for by end of April though. So the only real reason a school asks is to see how many children with extra needs they are with willing to take. Allocating existing resource hours wouldn’t be organized in most schools until June as well. The catchment area isn’t too much of a worry as they are never oversubscribed. If I’m correct that they are weeding pupils out it is generally the principal. I know there are great teachers in the school as well as all his friends so I really want him to attend. Thanks for all the advice but I’m going to leave it blank and when he hopefully recieves his place I’ll inform them immediately.
    It just sickens me that this goes on and it’s naive to say it doesn’t. I was sickened in my last school listening to the carry on of local principals. As a side note, having worked in a few schools a lot of teachers are still stuck in the past with the negative language used around special needs. I hate biting my tongue around colleagues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    The closing date for receipt of applications for special needs assistants to the ncse is the 8th of march 2019. A lot of paperwork needs to go with this application so it makes sense to ask for a heads up about additional needs on enrolment


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  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    So they’ll get all that paperwork filled in from the last date of February to 8th March? I dont know many schools that proficient at paperwork that they’d have all the incoming junior infants profiles sent off in a week. I just don’t trust it. Also based on the individual case of my child, they would recieve little if any Sna hours.
    It’s the S.E.N.O. that grants Sna hours based on what they read/see anyway, have I got that wrong?


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    What I mean by that is that the SENO comes in to see the profile of pupils and grants hours or reduces regardless of what has been sent in the previous year. This has been my experience, if that’s untrue it shows the further inconsistencies in standards and practices in schools.


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭strawberrie


    SNA applications can only be made for children with specific care needs. The applications are made through the school to the SENO with full consent of parents on a specific form you can find on www.ncse.ie by 8th March 2019.
    Principals need to be aware of incoming children with SEN in order to make an application for additional SNA support for the next school year. The SENO will assess the applications and may decide yes additional support is needed, or no based on all the SEN needs in the school. They may visit the school to do a review before making the decision.
    There are lots of other reasons schools need to know about incoming children's needs, classroom environments may need adapting, provision for SET teaching for the child may need to be made, the class teacher will need to be aware. I'd imagine most if not all schools ask for this info on enrolment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    Not on enrollment they don’t, nor should they in my opinion. It should be after enrollment so that no prejudice decisions can be made. The minute my child receives a place, the school will be fully informed. It will then give them the same amount of time for any applications or preparations to be made if places are being offered on the last day of February. As a teacher of 14 years I can safely say this is enough time for a class teacher and set team to make preparations in relation specifically to my child’s needs.


  • Administrators Posts: 13,531 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    So what advice are you asking for here?
    You seem to be fairly decided on what you are going to do.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    I was asking for advice to see if my gut instinct was wrong, trying to figure out was I missing something, I’ve decided I’m not but thanks to everyone that replied for shining more light on the subject.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    Apologies if my tone was snotty but it’s topic I’m very passionate about and also stressful thinking about the environment my child will enter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭GalwayLurker


    Being honest I do think your gut instinct is wrong and you're approaching this with the wrong attitude. Having worked in many schools over the years this is standard practice in the majority of schools now, including my own school and rightly so in my opinion especially in light of the new model of provision for SE teaching. It makes things run so much smoother when children start school with regard to SET timetabling, team teaching, class supports etc. In my own experience in both mainstream and support teaching, the more you know about a child and the earlier you have that info the better for all concerned from a purely practical point of view. Would you not prefer that the teacher who's going to be responsible for your child for over 20 hours a week is aware of whatever diagnosis is in question here? I know you have said if your child is offered a place that then you'll inform the school but I think that's going to appear a bit peculiar and will raise more questions rather than solve any problems you're having with it now to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    Excuse me could you read my previous posts correctly before butting in, I said the minute he recieves his place the school shall be informed. At the end of February, it gives the school ample time to prepare for September, it also gives them the same amount of time to send the forms to the SENO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    It also gives. The principal enough time to send in for set hours


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    No school organises their set hours for the following year till May after the standardized testing has been completed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭GalwayLurker


    Butting in? Did you not come on here looking for opinions? I gave you my opinion as a teacher, you have your own as both a parent and a teacher which is fair enough I just don't happen to agree with it. No need for the outrage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    I had already thanked everyone on the thread, the decision was made but you felt the need to repeat what most other posters said, I suppose all teachers are guilty of that including myself. I was more bemused than outraged though so don’t fret.


  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭GalwayLurker


    tony stark wrote: »
    I had already thanked everyone on the thread, the decision was made but you felt the need to repeat what most other posters said, I suppose all teachers are guilty of that including myself. I was more bemused than outraged though so don’t fret.

    I didn't feel the need to repeat anything, I gave you my own professional opinion. Good luck to your son.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    def a bad move to not put it down.

    what if your son's diagnosis is absolutely fine and doesn't affect his getting a place. but then, after you disclose the diagnosis, they take away the place, if the form says they can do so?

    even if they don't take the place away you would be getting you and your son off on the wrong foot.

    i don't see why the question on the form infuriates you. they are, as you say, going to be responsible for another's child. they need to know. what's the point of having a child diagnosed at all then? just so the parents know? presumably they had a suspicion the child may have a special need and that led to the diagnosis.

    and if so then most likely eventually a teacher would as well pick up on it as well and then ask the parents. at which point all will come out, and just saying, 'we have all these interventions in place so we didn't think it would be an issue' or whatever you are saying, is going to be beside the point. the teacher will be thinking, 'Well I don't know anything about these interventions, and I should have been told, I was worried about what might be wrong, and the parent knew all the time and didn't say anything.'


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  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    I WILL be telling the school, the minute he gets a place. Look thanks for all the reply’s, honestly I do mean that. It’s just my opinion that there is enough time for the school to send the reports, prepare teachers( it’ll give them 6 months I think that’s long enough!).
    Thanks again, the decision has been made so not really a need for anybody to add anymore to this.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    tony stark wrote: »
    No school organises their set hours for the following year till May after the standardized testing has been completed.

    Errrm, that’s not true . Schools now use the continuum of support to decide on candidates for extra support the following year . A junior infant landing who has extra needs that haven’t been flagged won’t get the support they need as they begin their school journey . Why would you deliberately omit information that would make line easier for your child ?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    6months might be enough for a school but not for the SENO or DES . And then the SENO will say that the child is doing fine without extra support when they do land and don’t need it .


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    They couple the continuum of support with standardized testing as resource and learning support hours are all in the same basket.
    6 months is enough time for the SENO btw as reports have to be sent by March. Also the DES can be sent hours as late as early May for teacher numbers based on pupil numbers/profile for the following school year


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    I would omit the information for the sake of a few days to tell the school, something everyone here seems to be overlooking. The school will be informed when a place is offered.
    Do you think the minute they recieve pupil applications they begin sending off forms to the Des and SENO? I doubt it. They wait till all places are accepted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    If 6 months isn’t enough then why are the school only taking enrollment from mid Jan to the end of Feb?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I work in SEN, I have seen the delays first hand. It seems that the current default position for SEN resources is to refuse them and kick the application back to schools, then look for more information with the new application and delay it further and so on.
    Junior infants on restricted days or "access to an SNA" who may already be trying to cover with 5-6 other children. Meanwhile the child may be in a class of 30+ and distraught. Their school experience is setting them up for upset and anxiety. The Minister for Ed. has admitted that he actually doesn't know how many children with extra needs will be starting next September, so no provision for many new entrants, who will then have to scramble for the famous "access." I'd be trying to get an application in asap, but you seem to have your mind made up, as is your choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭KathleenGrant


    tony stark wrote: »
    I was just filling in my child’s primary school enrollment form when I realized the section on whether the child has any diagnosis is bothering me. He does have a diagnosis although because of all the interventions we have put in place he is flying. The school says it is so they can plan teacher/resources for next year. I am a teacher myself and know that numbers for the school and the profile of the pupils does not have to be sent until April/May. Are they weeding out how many pupils with special needs they wish to take? I know for a fact in the last school I taught in that the local principals met to divide out pupils with additional needs and pupils outside catchments.
    The reason I’m so worried is because although we are 400 metres from the school, we are still outside the catchment area so it may knock him from getting a place when they take into account his additional needs. I am tempted to mark the box ‘no’ even though that infuriates me. Then if he receives a place I would accept and then inform the school of his diagnosis. Not a great start but there is zero need for the school to be asking this early about diagnosis. Also I would be nervous that the form says that if there are any inaccuracies on the form the place may be lost.
    Any advice welcome

    As a teacher you know the minimum planning required. "As a teacher" you must be aware how important it is to have resources in place for students. "As a teacher" would you be also happy with a parent withholding relevant information on a student which would help the class teacher and school prepare for that student???


  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭tony stark


    I said the school would be informed at the end of February. Yes, as a teacher I think that is enough time. Enough time for the deadline for applications and enough time to prepare for next September. You don’t agree, fine but I made a decision based on what I have seen certain schools do in the past.


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  • Administrators Posts: 13,531 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    So what was the purpose of asking for advice?

    I think it's a ropey step to be starting off on with a school that you obviously want your son to attend, and trust them to care for and look after his educational needs for the next 8 years.

    Does he need an SNA? It's unclear from your first post. I know parents whose children very definitely needed SNAs, and even giving all the necessary information as soon as possible (in some cases a year before the child was due to start) they were still unsure of whether or not an SNA would be available to them by late August. In one instance a Down Syndrome child who is a definite flight risk did not have a full time SNA for the first 3 months. It was only after a number of near misses and a lot of arguing and meetings with various clipboard bearing people, that the fulltime SNA was granted.

    It was a struggle for everyone, the school, the child, the parents.


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