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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Reati


    Drones only have a top speed of about 250 mph. They are only useful for surveillance and for taking pot shots at them Taliban / Isis / Al Quada fellahs scarpering along in the desert in a land cruiser. By comparison the PC9m aircraft does about 350 to 400 mph. The Scorpion about 450 to 500 mph and the Gripen about Mach2...ie around 1400 to 1500 mph. So something like a Scorpion of Hawk is capable of ground attack in a military theatre. The Gripen is the sort of aircraft you need to see off any hostile foreign military aircraft because it's high speed can get it there quickly.

    Yes, because drones are used for surveillance. They don't need to be that fast.

    Anyway, where are all these hostile foreign aircraft that are a constant threat to neutral Irish airspace coming from? Russia? because again 12 jet's isn't going to be much of a threat to an airforce with over 500 jets and 3200 airframes in total.

    You seem to be convinced that we need expensive jets because one can buy expensive jets and we need to "give the boys something interesting to do" ignoring there is little desire from the Irish public on a wider scale to pay for these kinds of things given the fact we can't get our **** together in housing, education and health.

    Aren't they even struggling to keep the people in the AC who want to be there due to wages? Most of the lads I know fecked off to commercial airlines or fly film drones now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Interesting point of view!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    By the way...I didn't realize the KC 390 did a demo at Baldonnel. Impressive bit of kit imo. I've flown quite a lot on the Embraer passenger airliners that BA operate out of London City Airport. Great plane! And their Tucano trainer / light attack plane has been a great success. The KC 390 is picking up quite a few orders in South America and Boeing are very interested in getting involved in the programme.

    The KC 390 is getting orders in South America because it's a South American project, but given Brazil's economic issues who knows what the end order will be or the development (do remember building commercial aircraft doesn't mean much see A400). Moreover just like the suggestion of the Scorpion, NO. No part of the DF should ever be thinking about being one of the first users of a platform EVER.

    If we wanted airlift, there's plenty of options C130 for example, or just buying into the common airlift program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Air_Transport_Command

    Your suggestion of the Apache's is another no runner for many reasons that shouldn't need to be pointed out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,830 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I jumped from the first page to here. This “more taxes” bull*. The government have billions to send up in smoke for budget 2019. There is no need for extra taxes ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,036 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Of course I do. Look at the title of this thread. What is under discussion is giving the boys a meaningful role, because their equipment is rather simple at present. My proposal is a gradual upgrading of the capability.
    Phase 1. Acquire 8 jet trainers / ground attack aircraft...such as Hawk or Scorpion or that Italian jobby. This provides an upgrade path for skill set.
    Phase 2. New powerful radar equipment and establish a bolt on base at Knock Airport complete with bomb proof aircraft shelters. Also needed at Baldonnel.
    Phase 2 b & c. Acquire 4 Apache attack helicopters to support army and one of them new Embraer troop transporters to support ops in the Lebanon. Could also be fitted with 30mm Cannon as a helicopter gunship.
    Phase 4. Acquire 12 Gripen Intercepters once the lads have developed their skills on jets. To defend airspace post Brexit.

    Might as well buy a decent replacement for the governments as well.

    That seems like a reasonable amount for a small nation to have as an Air Force that is more than a gentleman's flying club. Even Zimbabwe has a better Air Force than Ireland.

    But can you justify the above? Cost benefit analysis would say not.

    Buying the aircraft is the cheap part.

    8 Scorpions = aprrox 150 million
    4 apache = somewhere between 100 and 240 million
    12 gripens = somewhere between 360 and 720 million

    All this against a defense budget of about 900 million (of which half is gone on pay and pensions) And that is just the initial cost. The 4 apaches alone would cost in the region of 200,000 euro per hour to operate.

    Think about that - even if the apaches were only run 10 hours a week for 50 weeks of the year - thats 100 million.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I jumped from the first page to here. This “more taxes” bull*. The government have billions to send up in smoke for budget 2019. There is no need for extra taxes ...

    Which department (and the far more powerful lobbies they have) are you going to take the money from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,830 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Which department (and the far more powerful lobbies they have) are you going to take the money from?
    I’m not taking it. They would simply receive less of a budget increase. Ireland is a rich country. We have world class welfare, pensions, ps pay and pensions. Can’t even defend our own airspace however. The way it’s portrayed here, you’d swear it it was famine times and a few jets was going to result in starvation for the masses ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I’m not taking it. They would simply receive less of a budget increase. Ireland is a rich country. We have worked class welfare, pensions, ps pay and pensions. Can’t even defend our own airspace however. The way it’s outraged here, you’d swear it it was famine times and a few jets was going to result in starvation for the masses ...

    Again, all the sectors you are dismissing have a vastly larger lobby group and public support than the DF, no Irish politician will lose votes ignoring the DF, they will lose votes on education, health, welfare, pay. That's the reality, to bring the DF up to even 1% means over a billion extra spending (above the planned Capital spend already planned), finding that without paying a political price will still be hard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42



    While that would handle the upfront costs, I would think we'd face a lot more costs than they did, remember they are just replacing Soviet Union hardware with Western systems, were as we'd have to create all that, I mean how much would the manpower/training have to increase just to sustain any reasonable level of readiness in the planes?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Of interest, Slovakia has been cleared to buy F-16 Block 70/72's.

    Big arms package, worth 2.91B, 14 F-16's including 16 F110 or F100 Engines, 30 AIM120C7 Missiles & 100 AIM9X Missiles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Of interest, Slovakia has been cleared to buy F-16 Block 70/72's.

    Big arms package, worth 2.91B, 14 F-16's including 16 F110 or F100 Engines, 30 AIM120C7 Missiles & 100 AIM9X Missiles.

    Well, that's just the clearance, whether they actually end up buying said aircraft is another issue, but again 1.2% on defence and no Navy that is sucking the Capital Spend (most of half a billion by the time the P60 and EPV programs are done). And again that's replacing previous investments rather than standing up new systems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭él statutorio


    Maybe if we ask the Donald nicely he'd loan us a few. I drove through the Davis-Monthan boneyard in Tucson yesterday, loads and loads of stuff just sitting there.

    Also got to see an A-10 Warthog coming into land, which was fun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    @twinytwo, I don't know where you got that figure from??!! Four kerosene burners do not consume that kind of money to operate, otherwise there would be no helicopters running about anywhere. In terms of fuel and oil used per hours, it's about $1200 an hour and double that for the per-hour maintenance cost. Fire weapons and you start getting into silly money , but the actual running cost is modest enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    sparky42 wrote: »
    You do know that many of the EU nations are integrating their forces, for example the Dutch and German Navies/Marines are integrating, think the Benelux countries are working at integrating their air defences for example.

    The Benelux integration and cooperation is not a future project or point of discussion etc etc. It has been fact for quite a while and not only in military aviation. The Dutch and Belgian navy for example have very close ties and mutual support and cooperation structures. Luxembourg officers and NCO's are trained by the Belgian army ( officers also by the French ) and as far back as the Korean War Luxembourg troops have been deployed integrated with Belgian units.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Here's the breakdown of the Israeli deal with Croatia.... all for $500m

    Incredible value

    - 10 x single seater Block 30 F-16s
    - 2 x twin seaters
    - 2 simulators
    - 3 spare engines
    - SLEP in cooperation with Lockheed (3000 flight hours)
    - 3 years of full support in Croatia (parts,techs training), and
    - full maintenance support during use (15-25 years)
    - Training for 6 pilots and 20-30 mechanics in Israel
    - Infrastructure (hangar for all planes and level 1 and level 2 maintenance)
    - Software support during usage period
    - Transport of everything from Israel to Croatia
    - 2 Israeli pilots in Croatia during first 3 years, as support
    - A yet to be determined small batch of short range AAMs, likely Sidewinders

    Can't ask for more than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That's a killer deal all right!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man



    The RAF will do it for us.

    Following Brexit and the likely strategic realignment it will produce, they are very likely to be called upon to do just that. I think we will have a choice to make: get into bed with the Brits and Yanks (and by extension, albeit an arm's length extension at least, the Russians) against Europe, or join up with the good guys.

    I'd be happy with that.

    You would?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    get into bed with the Brits and Yanks (and by extension, albeit an arm's length extension at least, the Russians) against Europe

    Is there a name for this US/UK/Russian military alliance that exists only in your mind?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I wonder what the running costs of 20 plus year old f16’s will cost them


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    GRIPEN squadron lease deal is still the best on the market, by far.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    Morpheus wrote: »
    GRIPEN squadron lease deal is still the best on the market, by far.

    Sure why don't we rejig the Nordic battlegroup and invite Sweden to establish an airbase in Donegal? They could carry out interception duties, and train Air Corps pilots and engineers until we have the capabilities to cover it ourselves. It would spice up the Spanish armada/Celtic redhead gene pool too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    ectoraige wrote: »
    Sure why don't we rejig the Nordic battlegroup and invite Sweden to establish an airbase in Donegal? They could carry out interception duties, and train Air Corps pilots and engineers until we have the capabilities to cover it ourselves. It would spice up the Spanish armada/Celtic redhead gene pool too.

    LMAO are you suggesting it would bring a few good looking women into mcgarrigles?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,691 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ectoraige wrote: »
    Sure why don't we rejig the Nordic battlegroup and invite Sweden to establish an airbase in Donegal? They could carry out interception duties, and train Air Corps pilots and engineers until we have the capabilities to cover it ourselves. It would spice up the Spanish armada/Celtic redhead gene pool too.

    Ive long thought that the solution is precisely this, though I would use Sligo Airport for it for a few reasons. Space to build a secure military installation, nearby population centre to supply same and accommodate personnel and most importantly, an east-west runway positioned by a sheltered body of water with direct routing out into the atlantic to allow for QRA interceptor operations.

    Sweden would be the ideal partner, but France would be a viable option too. A ten year lease and interoperability package developing skills and capacity prior to a stand alone Air Corps home defence squadron, stood up in parallel to a national air defence radar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Ive long thought that the solution is precisely this, though I would use Sligo Airport for it for a few reasons. Space to build a secure military installation, nearby population centre to supply same and accommodate personnel and most importantly, an east-west runway positioned by a sheltered body of water with direct routing out into the atlantic to allow for QRA interceptor operations.

    Sweden would be the ideal partner, but France would be a viable option too. A ten year lease and interoperability package developing skills and capacity prior to a stand alone Air Corps home defence squadron, stood up in parallel to a national air defence radar.

    I thought of Sligo too, and while the runway is fine for operational purposes given the STOL capabilities of the Grippen, I thought perhaps it would be just a tad short for training? I also wouldn't be able to make the redhead joke.

    Politically Sweden makes sense as a fellow EU member with a non-alignment/neutrality stance. There would be much more protest against French involvement. However, Sweden haven't operated overseas airbases to date, the French would have experience on that front.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Can't see the Swedes biting on this one at all. They don't need an overseas base in Ireland as any threat to their sovereignty comes from the East. Can't see the French wanting to buy into this either....especially as the aircraft won't be coming from Dassault.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    LMAO are you suggesting it would bring a few good looking women into mcgarrigles?

    Can't you just picture Anna and Jens rocking their Donegal Creameries jerseys?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    Can't see the Swedes biting on this one at all. They don't need an overseas base in Ireland as any threat to their sovereignty comes from the East. Can't see the French wanting to buy into this either....especially as the aircraft won't be coming from Dassault.

    I don't know why this thread isn't in the Walter Mitty section. but nevertheless...

    It would have to be in the context of improved defence of EU airspace, post Brexit, with enough money and sales dangled at Sweden.

    Geographically and logistically, a few French Rafales would be the better fit, but politically it would go down like a lead balloon due to our neutrality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,691 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    We were never really neutral, just soft non aligned with a massive EU / NATO bias. With our membership of PfP, PESCO and now fully operational with the EU Naval Force (none of which I object to) neutrality isnt even a conversation anymore. As Britain diverges more and more back into antiquity, its less and less appropriate that we should be under their umbrella for anything.

    If there is likely to be a genuine threat to our area of responsibility from Russian patrols, we should be able to deploy to meet them. Yes there will be protests, but they should be ignored, because they will mainly come from hypocrites who fail to see the connection between demanding sovereignty on one hand and the definition of that status being the ability to exert it.

    It wouldnt take much reclamation to make Sligo long enough, but so long as there is quick access to the Atlantic the squadron could be anywhere, Farranfore would do either. Nice view for spotters on Inch Beach of the QRA flight going supersonic over the bay.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Lads never mind the Russians! It’s the brits we need to be worried about. With brexit coming shortly it’s not going to be long before May and Boris say it’s time to get our empire back and we are the first on the list!


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