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Air Corps Availability

124

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Bit of an over reaction surely, it's not the first RUC officer to move over, now is it the first time that the AC have gone north.

    I am being sarcastic


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Last year during the height of the media attention on the lack of air corps crew, one of the government plans was to call up former air corps pilots from the private sector for temporary postings. Did this ever go anywhere or was it just a soundbite at the time to pretend they where doing something?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Last year during the height of the media attention on the lack of air corps crew, one of the government plans was to call up former air corps pilots from the private sector for temporary postings. Did this ever go anywhere or was it just a soundbite at the time to pretend they where doing something?

    The proposal and T&C's have been set and published. It is now with the general staff to identify personnel who may possibly rejoin. Each individual has to make an application to the minister who will make the decision to initially offer a 3 year short service commission.

    The kicker is, if you rejoin, you will forfeit any previous pension entitlement and will be moved onto the post 2013 pension scheme which is dreadful. So for anyone that joined prior to 2004, it represents a huge loss in pension.

    I dont think there will be a big uptake with the scheme but you never know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    The proposal and T&C's have been set and published. It is now with the general staff to identify personnel who may possibly rejoin. Each individual has to make an application to the minister who will make the decision to initially offer a 3 year short service commission.

    The kicker is, if you rejoin, you will forfeit any previous pension entitlement and will be moved onto the post 2013 pension scheme which is dreadful. So for anyone that joined prior to 2004, it represents a huge loss in pension.

    I dont think there will be a big uptake with the scheme but you never know.

    Why would you go back for 3 years and leave a good job for them conditions . Would it not be better to have a group of pilots through out the year who we say do the minimum hours needed to allow them fly a casa for example . Then when there is a shortage i am sure it can be seen when these will happen such as with annual leave then call in the reserve pilots . They can have some sort of arrangement with there airline that they have to go national service for a few weeks, essentially having a pool of proper reserve military pilots like other country's do. Why do we make everything so hard is there push back from serving pilots ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Why would you go back for 3 years and leave a good job for them conditions . Would it not be better to have a group of pilots through out the year who we say do the minimum hours needed to allow them fly a casa for example . Then when there is a shortage i am sure it can be seen when these will happen such as with annual leave then call in the reserve pilots . They can have some sort of arrangement with there airline that they have to go national service for a few weeks, essentially having a pool of proper reserve military pilots like other country's do. Why do we make everything so hard is there push back from serving pilots ?

    There is no employment legislation in place to facilitate what you suggest and as we have a society and culture that never valued military service there would likely be significant push back from airlines. It works very well in the US though with reservists doing both civil and military flying. The AC is too small to have such an arrangement in reality imo.

    If you have been flying in the Middle East for 5/6 years earning 15/20k a month tax free, it might be a viable option despite the pension arrangement.

    The 3 year commission is the first stage. There is an option to offer a commission without limitation at the end of 3 years at which stage they will be eligible to go for promotion again etc.

    There was significant push back from RACO on the issue on behalf of serving pilots.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    How will this air ambulance work with the Athlone service?

    http://www.thejournal.ie/air-ambulance-kerry-4248472-Sep2018/


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,490 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    roadmaster wrote: »
    How will this air ambulance work with the Athlone service?

    http://www.thejournal.ie/air-ambulance-kerry-4248472-Sep2018/

    I just saw this on the news and was coming here to ask the exact same question. :pac:


    My other question is, the impression I have of this type of work is that they may have to land at accident locations or other unusual landing sites. (not airports/airfields) Is this regarded as dangerous or risky type flying?

    Also is the Athlone based chopper so busy that a second is required?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I just saw this on the news and was coming here to ask the exact same question. :pac:


    My other question is, the impression I have of this type of work is that they may have to land at accident locations or other unusual landing sites. (not airports/airfields) Is this regarded as dangerous or risky type flying?

    Also is the Athlone based chopper so busy that a second is required?

    I think i remember in the HEMS report last year for the hse it said one of the problem with a civilian aircraft is it is restricted from landing in certain places compare to the air corps which can bascailly land anywhere in the country


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭irishrgr


    Interesting the public and a charity has to stand up what has become a standard in most developed countries. HEMS is not new. This is long overdue and should be part of the EMS system in Ireland. As regards the question about dangerous is it landing at scenes, no not really. HEMS systems do this daily here, landing on roadsides, fields, back gardens, whatever, day and night. Generally first responders will nominate a HLZ, pilot makes the call & lands. Basic instructions are a 100metre by 100metre flat area free of wires & debris. Land, get patient, fly away. Job done. Aircraft coordinates with the local tower usually, they fly VFR although some HEMS systems have IFR capability for interfacility flights. 
    This is not rocket science, its basic rotary wing aviation. But this is Ireland where the military can barely fly at night, and besides, it would require a multi year commission of enquiry, a Dail debate and hand wringing about the brave, valueable but underfunded emergency service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The Air Corps used to have retired pilots on what was called the First Line Reserve, whereby pilots who were gone to the airlines would come back for the equivalent of a summer camp and do two weeks of flying. All done away with in cutbacks in the 80s.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,490 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    irishrgr wrote: »
    Interesting the public and a charity has to stand up what has become a standard in most developed countries. HEMS is not new. This is long overdue and should be part of the EMS system in Ireland.

    I dont understand it all. What is the difference between the operation in Athlone and in Cork?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    I dont understand it all. What is the difference between the operation in Athlone and in Cork?

    Athlone is a HSE/Air Corps service. This is a civilian charity service. They're not uncommon. There are over a dozen of them in the UK. All HEMS in England and Wales are operated by charities. The only public one in the UK is the Scottish Air Ambulance Service.

    I'm not arguing for one over the other and don't know the level of public finding the UK HEMS charities receive (if any). I'm not saying we should follow that model either. Just providing some background.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,490 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    I was just trying to understand what Irishrgr said earlier about the charity having to start the operation.
    irishrgr wrote: »
    Interesting the public and a charity has to stand up what has become a standard in most developed countries. HEMS is not new. This is long overdue and should be part of the EMS system in Ireland.

    This operation has been started in Cork but Athlone already doing the same thing?

    Is there a need for overlap?

    Im not a pilot so someone can correct me on the operational details but isnt Athlone a far better base for this than Cork, being able to easily reach the entire country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭irishrgr


    As regards the question above, EMS in Ireland is provided by the government (HSE & DFB) as a public service. I submit HEMS is a logical extension of this and should be integrated into the EMS system. IE, the HEMS should be the responsibility of the govt, not a charity. I am well aware the HSE struggles to meet basic EMS functions in part of the county, let alone provide HEMS. I'm not against the charity based system, I just feel strongly that essential public services should be provided by the govt. Letting a charity do it is a cop out. 
    The current model of using the Air Corps seem to work as an interim, but doesn't seem to be a long term solution. HEMS requires dedicated crews, aircraft & bases. Interesting, as a sidebar, there is a physician on the crew. In the US the model is mostly Nurse/Paramedic or just two paramedics. While doctors bring exceptional capability, that seems expensive compared to advanced paramedics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I was just trying to understand what Irishrgr said earlier about the charity having to start the operation.



    This operation has been started in Cork but Athlone already doing the same thing?

    Is there a need for overlap?

    Im not a pilot so someone can correct me on the operational details but isnt Athlone a far better base for this than Cork, being able to easily reach the entire country.


    When the EAS was started it was originally designed to serve the West of Ireland, this will hopefully free it up for that again, either way it is a win win, you now have 4 Irish Coast Guard S92's, 1 Irish Air Corps AW139 & 1 Charity A109 serving the Nation for HEMS etc, brilliant stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-air-corps-carry-out-over-300-air-ambulance-missions-in-2018-37669935.html

    A very busy year for the 139s as per the indo article. The review that was carried out I believed favored leaving things as they are at the moment for the EAS but is it sustainable for the future for the air corps in terms of crew and aircraft?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-air-corps-carry-out-over-300-air-ambulance-missions-in-2018-37669935.html

    A very busy year for the 139s as per the indo article. The review that was carried out I believed favored leaving things as they are at the moment for the EAS but is it sustainable for the future for the air corps in terms of crew and aircraft?

    Status Quo will prevail.

    Easy win for the politicians.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    Status Quo will prevail.

    Easy win for the politicians.

    That’s the Moto I think of the irish state . Only react when something goes wrong and then consider doing something !


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route

    The ATR, being a civil aircraft will fly straight through the UK FIR. assuming it was short notice, and AC heli may have had to route via Ballyshannon/finner on the way To/from. 180/200kts+ versions 150/160kts.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I see today 112 did letterkenny to Dublin in 57 mins not to bad considering it takes an atr 50 mins near enough the same route

    It wasn't the EAS bird from Athlone, it was the Inter Hospital Duty 139 from Bal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Negative_G wrote: »
    The ATR, being a civil aircraft will fly straight through the UK FIR. assuming it was short notice, and AC heli may have had to route via Ballyshannon/finner on the way To/from. 180/200kts+ versions 150/160kts.

    SAR has no border, same for mercy missions, they pretty much go direct ive seen this before on FR24.

    From what I know, they have diplomatic clearance, same as IRCG so its no issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Psychlops wrote: »
    SAR has no border, same for mercy missions, they pretty much go direct ive seen this before on FR24.

    From what I know, they have diplomatic clearance, same as IRCG so its no issue.

    A patient transfer isn't "SAR" and is generally preplanned to some degree, "SAR" generally is not.

    I will refrain from going into specifics, but a state aircraft cannot just enter the territory of another nation on a whim with no clearance. The "SAR" aircraft are operated and flown by civilians, they might perform similar roles at times but there are significant differences from a diplomatic perspective.

    Of course there are agreements in place to facilitate these type of missions but they must still tick the boxes regardless of the amount of planning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Of course there are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The system for getting clearance is pretty finely tuned and is down to a matter of minutes, in some cases. Both Govts, Irish and UK, will move heaven and earth to clear aircraft across borders, if they have to, especially if human life is at risk or if there is a military or police imperative. It would be extremely rare for either side to refuse passage. Both countries meet for security briefings often enough, that it has long been decided as a matter of protocol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    The system for getting clearance is pretty finely tuned and is down to a matter of minutes, in some cases. Both Govts, Irish and UK, will move heaven and earth to clear aircraft across borders, if they have to, especially if human life is at risk or if there is a military or police imperative. It would be extremely rare for either side to refuse passage. Both countries meet for security briefings often enough, that it has long been decided as a matter of protocol.

    Correct. There are people in various government depts who are on call on a 24/7 basis to facilitate this type of operation.

    My point (generally) was that it isn't a case of "having an agreement" which allows carte blanche entry to a foreign jurisdiction. Each requirement to enter the UK (for example) requires a unique application which has to be approved on a case by case basis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Agree 110%


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Agree 110%


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Psychlops wrote: »
    It wasn't the EAS bird from Athlone, it was the Inter Hospital Duty 139 from Bal.

    is that aircraft just for patient transfer or is it available for anything as so directed by the government


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    i was listening to the former head of EU customs on the radio this morning and he was saving that for commercial vehicles you would have designated routes for them to cross the border . You are not going to be able to man all crossings and ensure trucks are not going through the unmanned ones.

    Aerial observation would come in handy to help enforce this so could we see finner camps runway reopened and cessnas based there for border patrols. But are the Cessnas even flying anymore and would there be enough crews to carry out patrols. It would be a while before the 3 PC12's are in place and i would imagine the cessnas would be a lot cheaper to run for this type of work


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