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Air Corps Availability

245

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    If it is fair enough the mods can remove but it’s hardly a secret it operates 24hrs all you have to is look up and you see its there

    All the criminals need to know is that its always available.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    All the criminals need to know is that its always available.

    I was thinking more along the lines of a crew can launch the GASU could they not launch Air Corps helicopters


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I was thinking more along the lines of a crew can launch the GASU could they not launch Air Corps helicopters

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-12-11a.90

    The Air Corps have been launching and recovering helicopters from athlone without heavy maintenance facilities or ATC so they obviously have the capability to launch without ATC which appears to be the limiting factor.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I don't see why ATC would be a limiting factor. Aircraft can fly without ATC below 7,500ft in Ireland. (Class G airspace)
    You also don't need a ground crew to turn on a helicopter. As long as they gave it any necessary maintenance before they went home the night before, the helo will work. We're not talking F-16s here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I don't see why ATC would be a limiting factor. Aircraft can fly without ATC below 7,500ft in Ireland. (Class G airspace)
    You also don't need a ground crew to turn on a helicopter. As long as they gave it any necessary maintenance before they went home the night before, the helo will work. We're not talking F-16s here.

    That’s what I was thinking but you get the impression from various sources such as here, other Discussion Boards and the media that helicopters as well can’t take off out hours due to lack of ground crew.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    I don't see why ATC would be a limiting factor. Aircraft can fly without ATC below 7,500ft in Ireland. (Class G airspace)
    You also don't need a ground crew to turn on a helicopter. As long as they gave it any necessary maintenance before they went home the night before, the helo will work. We're not talking F-16s here.

    I'm putting two and two together given the reports that have been in the media since the R116 crash.

    It has been widely reported that 24 hour ATC has been unavailable due to a lack of personnel. The knock on being that the AC cannot (under normal circumstances) launch aircraft without ATC. Obviously GASU is the exception to the rule.

    The AC are also not providing a 24 hour air ambulance service to the HSE at the moment so their is no routine requirement to launch non GASU aircraft at night time which addresses the original question from roadmaster. It appears to be an ATC issue, not a technical personnel issue.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/air-ambulance-ireland-3693837-Nov2017/
    roadmaster wrote: »
    That’s what I was thinking but you get the impression from various sources such as here, other Discussion Boards and the media that helicopters as well can’t take off out hours due to lack of ground crew.


    Not true. Ground crew are not the issue.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It depends on the weather. VFR rules, you don't need any form of ATC. If you're taking off from Baldonnel in IFR conditions (or whatever the Irish version is, I've a US pilot's license), then you have to have ATC.

    Most air/sea rescue ops will, by their nature, be in IFR conditions, so the lack of ATC is most definitely going to affect the CASA or Dauphins more than the GASU fleet which, by nature of their job, tends to require visibility between where they're flying and the ground and thus will meet VFR requirements.

    Actually, there is a caveat on there. In the US, at least, military aircraft may be exempted from this requirement, because they have the training and equipment to fly in IFR conditions without ATC. (After all, can't call off the war because the weather is poor). I don't know if Irish military aircraft are not given the same exemption, or if someone has simply made a judgement call that it is not worth the risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    It depends on the weather. VFR rules, you don't need any form of ATC. If you're taking off from Baldonnel in IFR conditions (or whatever the Irish version is, I've a US pilot's license), then you have to have ATC.

    Most air/sea rescue ops will, by their nature, be in IFR conditions, so the lack of ATC is most definitely going to affect the CASA or Dauphins more than the GASU fleet which, by nature of their job, tends to require visibility between where they're flying and the ground and thus will meet VFR requirements.

    I think the point is being missed here.

    We are all in agreement that aircraft can be launched without ATC in Class G airspace without issue. Which is the case every day with the EAS service in Athlone. And the same with the GASU outside of ATC hours at casement.

    The question that was asked was why are the rest of the AC fleet (specifically rotary) not launched without ATC and this would appear to be an operational decision based on ongoing training and operational requirements.

    The AC currently do not provide a 24 hr service to the HSE as per the link above, which is quite likely as a result of the lack of ATC as was widely discussed in the wake of the R116 accident.

    As it stands, outside of a national emergency or security situation, there is no requirement to launch aircraft, rotary or otherwise, outside of the current ATC hours.

    Actually, there is a caveat on there. In the US, at least, military aircraft may be exempted from this requirement, because they have the training and equipment to fly in IFR conditions without ATC. (After all, can't call off the war because the weather is poor). I don't know if Irish military aircraft are not given the same exemption, or if someone has simply made a judgement call that it is not worth the risk.

    I don't think the Air Corps do anything that would require an uncontrolled take off into immediate IFR conditions. I can't think of a scenario where that would be an acceptable risk, especially considering the proximity of Baldonnel to Dublin airport.

    That said, requesting an IFR climb from a VFR flight plan is relatively straight forward and common.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Just thinking there I read somewhere in the last few weeks that 112 could be going 24 hrs so that answers my question probably anyway about helicopters operations at night.

    On a Side note 112 never seams to be out of the air. I know it’s not the same helicopter there using all the time but would the extra flight hours that would probably not of being foreseen when the AW139 where bought cause any extra maintenance issues or longevity for the AW139 fleet furthermore if the air corps ended up providing a second service based in the south as well would that effectively tie up the entire AW139 fleet with the aeromedical service due to aircraft being used and and aircraft being serviced?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,410 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Is there much a helicopter can do that a couple of (serious) drones with a decent operator can't do for a fraction of the price...(instead of the garda helicopter)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Just thinking there I read somewhere in the last few weeks that 112 could be going 24 hrs so that answers my question probably anyway about helicopters operations at night.

    On a Side note 112 never seams to be out of the air. I know it’s not the same helicopter there using all the time but would the extra flight hours that would probably not of being foreseen when the AW139 where bought cause any extra maintenance issues or longevity for the AW139 fleet furthermore if the air corps ended up providing a second service based in the south as well would that effectively tie up the entire AW139 fleet with the aeromedical service due to aircraft being used and and aircraft being serviced?

    You are probably correct.

    The 139's were originally procured to fulfil the "support the army" role that the Dauphins never quite managed to. The end of SAR ops was meant to mean the army would get plenty of face time with rotary assets.

    There is no mandate or rumours for deploying AC aircraft overseas to support UN/EU missions and it could be argued that, given the HR issues, they quite possibly couldn't anyway, even if they wanted to. There was no mention of it in the 2015 White Paper.

    As a tax payer, I'd much rather see the helicopters used in the EAS service than flying around the Curragh doing parachuting or lugging artillery pieces.

    What I would be interested to know is whether the Dept of Health is renumerating the Dept of Defence for the use of their assets. Having an aircraft available every single day is bound to take a toll on a small fleet of six.

    You could argue that a solution would be for the HSE to buy their own 2/3 helicopters, paint them yellow, crew them with AC pilots and HSE rear crew.

    It works for the GASU, let Defence provide the crews and the HSE worry about the running costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Negative_G wrote: »
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-12-11a.90

    The Air Corps have been launching and recovering helicopters from athlone without heavy maintenance facilities or ATC so they obviously have the capability to launch without ATC which appears to be the limiting factor.

    No heavy maintenance as the airframes are rotated back to bal every few days for that but they do carry out & have maintenance crews in the EAS base. They put up vids of this on Snapchat not that long ago.

    As soon as they are airborne they are onto Shannon ATC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Victor wrote: »
    One specific thing I remember, I think from the Engineers Journal, along the lines of 'a day in the life of air traffic control' and it went along the lines of:

    0900 Turn on radar.
    0915 Commence ATC duties.
    0900 Commence flight operations.

    I remember this too, from an IAC book brought out I think in 1997, a day in the life of ATC, when the Fouga's were still flying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I don't want to start a new thread so I'll post this question here. I read an article from a link for the Irish times on irish military online about the air corps and it said with AC112 that the crew don't use rank when on mission would that be true of all other aircraft such as pc9s and casas?

    I remember watching a video from the RAF/RN its the same for them for all helicopter crews, no rank used when inside the helicopter. All 1st name basis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Psychlops wrote: »
    No heavy maintenance as the airframes are rotated back to bal every few days for that but they do carry out & have maintenance crews in the EAS base. They put up vids of this on Snapchat not that long ago.

    As soon as they are airborne they are onto Shannon ATC.

    I'm quite aware of how the operation works.

    My point is that carrying out first line maintenance doesnt require a lot of infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    You are probably correct.

    The 139's were originally procured to fulfil the "support the army" role that the Dauphins never quite managed to. The end of SAR ops was meant to mean the army would get plenty of face time with rotary assets.

    There is no mandate or rumours for deploying AC aircraft overseas to support UN/EU missions and it could be argued that, given the HR issues, they quite possibly couldn't anyway, even if they wanted to. There was no mention of it in the 2015 White Paper.

    As a tax payer, I'd much rather see the helicopters used in the EAS service than flying around the Curragh doing parachuting or lugging artillery pieces.

    What I would be interested to know is whether the Dept of Health is renumerating the Dept of Defence for the use of their assets. Having an aircraft available every single day is bound to take a toll on a small fleet of six.

    You could argue that a solution would be for the HSE to buy their own 2/3 helicopters, paint them yellow, crew them with AC pilots and HSE rear crew.

    It works for the GASU, let Defence provide the crews and the HSE worry about the running costs.

    i know from reading another forum the posters are not to happy about the air corps providing EAS service, but one important fact is the public are very much in favor of it and impressed. Rightly or wrongly it is a great PR exercise and shows the air corps in a very good light while providing an excellent service


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think i heard on the radio the air corps have six helicopters putting out fires so that would be probably all the 139 fleet except 112. So they must be also using one of the 135s . Would they normally be able carry a fully loaded bambi bucket?

    Edit: just seen a picture of a ec 135 with a bambi bucket in the indo. Thats that answered


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Negative_G wrote: »
    As a tax payer, I'd much rather see the helicopters used in the EAS service than flying around the Curragh doing parachuting or lugging artillery pieces.

    And as a tax payer id rather see the Military do a Military job, EAS is not their main job, yes the IAC has a long & excellent service with the HSE but they were not bought for that purpose, while ATCP is one of the jobs their main role is not that, their primary role is to support the Army.

    If we were going to go that way then why paint them green in the 1st place, you may as well tell any lad or lady signing up to the IAC that they wont be doing Military jobs they will be medical flights..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Psychlops wrote: »
    And as a tax payer id rather see the Military do a Military job, EAS is not their main job, yes the IAC has a long & excellent service with the HSE but they were not bought for that purpose, while ATCP is one of the jobs their main role is not that, their primary role is to support the Army.

    If we were going to go that way then why paint them green in the 1st place, you may as well tell any lad or lady signing up to the IAC that they wont be doing Military jobs they will be medical flights..
    Psychlops wrote: »
    And as a tax payer id rather see the Military do a Military job, EAS is not their main job, yes the IAC has a long & excellent service with the HSE but they were not bought for that purpose, while ATCP is one of the jobs their main role is not that, their primary role is to support the Army.

    If we were going to go that way then why paint them green in the 1st place, you may as well tell any lad or lady signing up to the IAC that they wont be doing Military jobs they will be medical flights..

    Sigh..

    Three months later - Seriously?

    Have a read of the 2015 White Paper. In the very first few pages you will find the following:

    "To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search and rescue and air ambulance services".

    This effectively allows the Government to task the Defence Forces with whatever the needs of the state are at the time.

    You are correct - One of the primary roles of the Air Corps is to support the Army. However, given that the Air Corps do not support the Army in an ongoing overseas environment, a vast amount of resources would be used purely for training. Training for an eventuality that will probably never happen, certainly in the next 10-15 years.

    The Air Corps do provide support routinely for domestic operational taskings (not training). Just because you don't see it advertised on social media don't think that it doesn't happen.

    The only scenario where you are going to see AC rotary aircraft doing substantial dedicated military training and operations is if the UN/EU ask the Government to contribute rotary assets to a PKO/EU Battlegroup etc. Even then, with the HR issues the AC are suffering, it's unlikely to get off the ground. And it would likely require the ceasing both EAS and GASU which would cause significant headaches and would likely result in the respective Government dept's dragging their feet.

    In the mean time, I am quite happy to see the AC carry out the EAS job. I'm pretty sure the air crew get significant job satisfaction out of it, more so than logging around an artillery piece. I'm also pretty sure that most aircrew applicants are aware of the roles and responsibilities of the AC prior to joining so if anyone is disillusioned, they only have themselves to blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    Sigh..

    Three months later - Seriously?

    Have a read of the 2015 White Paper. In the very first few pages you will find the following:

    "To provide a range of other supports to government departments and agencies in line with MOUs and SLAs agreed by the Department of Defence e.g. search and rescue and air ambulance services".

    This effectively allows the Government to task the Defence Forces with whatever the needs of the state are at the time.

    You are correct - One of the primary roles of the Air Corps is to support the Army. However, given that the Air Corps do not support the Army in an ongoing overseas environment, a vast amount of resources would be used purely for training. Training for an eventuality that will probably never happen, certainly in the next 10-15 years.

    The Air Corps do provide support routinely for domestic operational taskings (not training). Just because you don't see it advertised on social media don't think that it doesn't happen.

    The only scenario where you are going to see AC rotary aircraft doing substantial dedicated military training and operations is if the UN/EU ask the Government to contribute rotary assets to a PKO/EU Battlegroup etc. Even then, with the HR issues the AC are suffering, it's unlikely to get off the ground. And it would likely require the ceasing both EAS and GASU which would cause significant headaches and would likely result in the respective Government dept's dragging their feet.

    In the mean time, I am quite happy to see the AC carry out the EAS job. I'm pretty sure the air crew get significant job satisfaction out of it, more so than logging around an artillery piece. I'm also pretty sure that most aircrew applicants are aware of the roles and responsibilities of the AC prior to joining so if anyone is disillusioned, they only have themselves to blame.

    In a way the EAS is giving the air crew good training in landing operations all over the country in different areas


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    In a way the EAS is giving the air crew good training in landing operations all over the country in different areas

    Absolutely.

    The AW139s will never fly in anything near a combat zone as they have no counter measures, no armour, no self sealing fuel tanks and a very primitive defensive weapon capability. So in reality, what they are doing in EAS, landing in unprepared LZ's or confined areas is the the most they would be doing in an overseas environment. The only difference being they would be moving personnel and equipment rather than patients.

    Have a look at what any rotary assets in the UN are doing currently. It's A-B VFR flying in an almost zero threat environment. The only outlier being the counter insurgency mission in the DRC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Going by the defence forces facebook page they must be getting a handle on the pilot shortages by the amount of helicopters deployed firefighting. Even a casa has being deployed


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Going by the defence forces facebook page they must be getting a handle on the pilot shortages by the amount of helicopters deployed firefighting. Even a casa has being deployed


    I'd say it would depend, they could be "surging" pilots for a short duration with impacts later on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Going by the defence forces facebook page they must be getting a handle on the pilot shortages by the amount of helicopters deployed firefighting. Even a casa has being deployed

    The AC are still facing significant shortages in specialist areas of technicians, pilots and ATC. None of which can be trained over night. They are, at best, treading water.

    What you see now is likely an "all hands on deck" approach. These fires have gained far too much publicity for the AC to shy away from.

    I'm not saying they would but in typical military fashion, the "get the job done" mentality will persevere to the temporary detriment of other responsiblities. You can be sure if they are burning serious hours on the 139 fleet that this will have an effect down the road particularly as the heavier inspections have been outsourced recently, which highlights the glaring problem of technicians.

    In any case, I suspect it is challenging and rewarding flying. Credit to the coilte heli crews aswell putting in serious work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭sjb25


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Going by the defence forces facebook page they must be getting a handle on the pilot shortages by the amount of helicopters deployed firefighting. Even a casa has being deployed

    Even crossing the border to help out now

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-air-corps-sent-across-the-border-to-assist-with-major-gorse-fire-37100428.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Has the Government secretly bought extra helicopters and crew!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Has the Government secretly bought extra helicopters and crew!


    God no, I'd say the crews are being worked to the bone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Has the Government secretly bought extra helicopters and crew!

    Task prioritisation at work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Under the sla with the hse does 112 have to have a back up helicopter in case the one that is on call has technical issues?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Under the sla with the hse does 112 have to have a back up helicopter in case the one that is on call has technical issues?

    The SLA requires one aircraft available at daylight hours, 365 days a year.

    As such, if the duty aircraft is grounded, it has to be replaced with another. It is implied that a back up aircraft is available.


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