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3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    aindriu80 wrote: »
    depends on what they come up with. It just sounds like a stretched PV to me.

    At the moment the new ships (10 year old design) will no doubt do a better job than the ships we have but nothing new.

    anything 'new' in terms of weapons/sensor capability is going to be expensive - bone-crunchingly, eye-wateringly expensive - the amount of cash required for an EPV-type vessel with an Anti-Air, ASW and Surface-to-Surface missile capability would wipe out the entire defence budget for two vessels.

    the most that realisticly could be hoped for in terms of capability would be an 'off the shelf' air-search radar and a MANPAD mount on the ship, a UAV capability and a 'flight-deck-plus' capability to refuel visiting helicopters.

    a 'nice' capability that would fit in with doctrine would be a self-defence system, so that - for example - an INS vessel could defend itself against land-fired threats like ATGW, mortars, rockets etc.. fired at short range in coastal waters on Peace Support Ooperations. not holding my breath though - they're expensive...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Spain is mothballing 6 Santa Maria class frigates and one aircraft carrier(recession). The Santa Marias are 138.8 meters (455 feet) long and displace 4,200 tons. They have a top speed of 56 kilometers an hour and are armed with a 76mm gun, 324mm torpedoes, anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, and a helicopter. There are two auto-cannons for missile defense. Perhaps we should ask if we can "borrow" one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭Dogwatch


    They are upwards of 20 years old. the design is even older. What we have is better than these rust buckets!!!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Every time you have a discussion about new OPVs some flute comes in with some wacky bitsa ship they once saw in "my big book of Navy Ships", and decide that this, over all is what we "Need".


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Every time you have a discussion about new OPVs some flute comes in with some wacky bitsa ship they once saw in "my big book of Navy Ships", and decide that this, over all is what we "Need".

    indeed - and precious thought seems to be given to how it will be crewed.

    an old-style Frigates crew has got to be reaching 200+, the current NS vessels all have crews of less than 80 and if rumour is to be believed, crewing the 8 boats right now produces a bit of 'stretch'.

    you'd have to triple the size of the NS to take on three of these Ships, the maintainence bill alone would give the MoF an aneurism, and to be brutally frank, what the fcuk does the NS know about operating an ASW/AAW platform?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    yeah youre right...

    so we should just take the aircraft carrier instead :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Dont anyone shoot me as i dont know much about naval ships but wud it be possable when the new ships come instead of scraping two cud we upgrade them and expand the fleet or are the ships well past the sell by date and not worth investing in?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Dont anyone shoot me as i dont know much about naval ships but wud it be possable when the new ships come instead of scraping two cud we upgrade them and expand the fleet or are the ships well past the sell by date and not worth investing in?

    they'll be fit for scrap by the time they are decommissioned - there'll be no life left in them at all.

    theres another issue as well: with climate change the seas of the North Atlantic are getting rougher - the waves are bigger - the current vessels were built to operate in the North Atlantic of 30 - 40 years ago, and even if they weren't utterly shagged out, they'd be very restricted in what they could do anyway within 5 to 10 years, so there'd be no point whatsoever spending €millions (and it would be million and millions) on each ship when you'd have to retire it within the decade anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Morphéus wrote: »
    yeah youre right...

    so we should just take the aircraft carrier instead :)

    Its in need of 500 million euro refit so might not be the best financial option:D

    I do love these threads do because they highlight the lack of financial reality versus the boys with big toys mentality. Basically apart from the odd PR exercise the navy here is just armed fishery inspectors with search and rescue support. Surely it be better to face up to reality and call them the coastguard?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Every time you have a discussion about new OPVs some flute comes in with some wacky bitsa ship they once saw in "my big book of Navy Ships", and decide that this, over all is what we "Need".

    It was a light heated post, I frequently forget some people have no sense of humour at all. Attack the post and not the poster and all that.:D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    I don't think second hand ships are the answer even if they are more than capable than existing newer vessels.


  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭cruisedub1


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Here's a flavour of the work
    http://www.stxmarine.net/ship_patrol.html


    Anyone play the video ? Irish " Royal " Navy . Perhaps someone should get in touch with them .:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    They lifted it off the RTE TV show "the Navy".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish




    From the DF website. How a ship is built.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Cranoo86


    Goldiefish: We can use any copyright material for the purpose of discussion! So know what you're talking about before you accuse someone of stealing!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Cranoo86 wrote: »
    Goldiefish: We can use any copyright material for the purpose of discussion! So know what you're talking about before you accuse someone of stealing!

    What are you on about?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    aindriu80 wrote: »
    I don't think second hand ships are the answer even if they are more than capable than existing newer vessels.
    Depends on the costs.

    Look at all the second hand aircraft carriers that were used well past their original sell by date.

    It depends on whether they can meet the operational requirements without needing more crew and having a large maintenance cost.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    The INS experience of second hand ships in the past has, without exception shown them to be unsuitable to our uses, some disasterously so. You are hammering a Triangular peg into a round hole.
    Flower class Corvettes were never suitable for offshore patrolling in the 1960s. They were designed as anti submarine escorts for convoys in the early WW2, and by 1943, were no longer adequate for that role. By the end of their life here, all of the anti submarine weapons had been removed anyway, and the oil fired boilers were impossible to maintain.
    The Ton Class Minesweepers were an improvement over the flowers, but were even less suited to operating outside the 12 mile limit. These ships were designed to operate in groups, in sheltered waters, like Gibraltar where they had spent most of their RN service.
    The less said about Ferdia the better, but the only thing her crew remember about her was she stank of fish.
    Setanta was the last steam powered ship built in Ireland. Why she was selected for use with a fleet that had been all diesel for 5 years prior to her entry into service remains a mystery to me, and others. She spent most of her life tied up in the basin.
    The Peacocks have done well, in spite of themselves, but were designed as a direct replacement for the minesweepers, without any real thought being put into what the minesweepers did, in Irish Service. I do not forsee them being replaced with similar CPV type ships.
    The problem as outlined has been that instead of selecting second hand ships that suit their role, the ships are selected based on price, and pressed into service. Better than nothing being the usual justification.


  • Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭cranefly


    that you tube video of the ship being built for ins was good, thanks for putting that up, my only gripe with the irish navy is that they need at least one decent ocean going ship, as the next port of call west of ireland is newfoundland the navy need something that can get to the middle of the atlantic in all weathers, that canadian sub that got into difficulty a few years back comes to mind, i know it was very stormy out there but we need one ship at least that can cope with that kind of weather, it seems to me this will be the norm in the future. on another topic lets hope they can get some jets for the air force, after 9/11 a government minister was on telly saying they were looking into getting some interceptor aircraft, years later we got these swiss made yokes with propellers think they were swiss, i know money is tight but we have a big friendly neighbour next door at least i dont think we were ever shot at by the royal navy or bombed by the raf. there are three rather nice looking naval ships for sale at barrow in furness docks, maybe our navy could take a look at these.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    cranefly wrote: »
    that you tube video of the ship being built for ins was good, thanks for putting that up, my only gripe with the irish navy is that they need at least one decent ocean going ship, as the next port of call west of ireland is newfoundland the navy need something that can get to the middle of the atlantic in all weathers, that canadian sub that got into difficulty a few years back comes to mind, i know it was very stormy out there but we need one ship at least that can cope with that kind of weather, it seems to me this will be the norm in the future. on another topic lets hope they can get some jets for the air force, after 9/11 a government minister was on telly saying they were looking into getting some interceptor aircraft, years later we got these swiss made yokes with propellers think they were swiss, i know money is tight but we have a big friendly neighbour next door at least i dont think we were ever shot at by the royal navy or bombed by the raf. there are three rather nice looking naval ships for sale at barrow in furness docks, maybe our navy could take a look at these.

    What 3 ships? I thinnk the only 3 RN ships awaiting disposal are the Type 42's, Gloucester, Liverpool and Manchester, which are 30, 32 and 30 years old respectably.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭cranefly


    they were built by bae for the royal brunei navy, but were not commissioned when i heard about them, that was a few years back, so by now they might be in brunei waters, you can get a look at them by going on you tube and typing walney walks 14.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    cranefly wrote: »
    they were built by bae for the royal brunei navy, but were not commissioned when i heard about them, that was a few years back, so by now they might be in brunei waters, you can get a look at them by going on you tube and typing walney walks 14.

    Ah right... Found them.

    File:Nakhoda_Ragam_class_OPV.jpg

    According to Wiki they're still there as of last May anyway, for sale by the German Lurrsen yard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Were they the ones the Brazilians recently bought?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Were they the ones the Brazilians recently bought?
    The ones they bought were for Trinidad and Tobago originally AFAIK.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Daftness deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    Looks like the Navy is getting a new ship. According to the Chief of Staff it will arrive Autumn 2013 and will be handed over to the Navy early 2014. They also plan to lay a keel for a further vessel later this year.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=5582&d=1296065705

    Nice to see the fleet being renewed but it doesn't offer any new capability.




  • Where is it being built?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    More importantly, what's she going to be called?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    No name decided yet. Built in the U.K. Pretty cheap at €50 million.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babcock_Marine_OPV


    General characteristics
    Type: Offshore patrol vessel
    Displacement: 1,900 tonnes
    Length: 90 metres
    Beam: 14 metres
    Draft: 3.8 metres
    Propulsion: Two Wärtsilä medium speed diesel engines (5,440 kW each) 450 kW bow thruster

    Speed: Baseline speed 23 knots (43 km/h; 26 mph) Economical speed 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)

    Range: 6,000 nautical miles (11,000 km; 6,900 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)[1]
    Endurance: 21 days
    Boats and landing craft carried: 2 x RHIB (8m)
    Capacity: 3 x 20 ft sea container, 1 x 5 ton, 9.56m crane aft
    Complement: 44 + up to 10 trainees
    Sensors and processing systems: Fire Control:Electro Optical
    Armament: 1 x 76 mm Oto Melara cannon 2 x 20mm Rheinmetall cannon Mountings for heavy MGs & GPMGs

    Aircraft carried: None
    Aviation facilities: UAV only


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