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Today's bargain watch that I'm not buying

17374767879121

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭893bet


    https://www.adverts.ie/17530749

    Good price. Tempted but I can’t make peace with the gap at end links of all steinhart bracelets.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    893bet wrote: »

    Good price. Tempted but I can’t make peace with the gap at end links of all steinhart bracelets.

    Agreed. Steinhart are good value/quality at the respective Ocean One price tier.
    The straight lugs on the case, and end link gaps are the negatives to them.
    It is true they are Swiss made, in the sense they are assembled in Switzerland using 60%+ Swiss made parts.
    But in reality the cases are made by Fullswing in Hong Kong. Phoibos use the same Fullswing made cases in their PX002 pieces.
    I suppose Gunter Steinhart didn't copy the 16610 case as the patent hasn't expired on it yet, hence the straight rather than curved down lugs used.
    Its a shame, as I always thought the Ocean One series would look better in a 16610 case rather than the straight lug Fullswing one.




  • Agreed. Steinhart are good value/quality at the respective Ocean One price tier.
    The straight lugs on the case, and end link gaps are the negatives to them.
    It is true they are Swiss made, in the sense they are assembled in Switzerland using 60%+ Swiss made parts.
    But in reality the cases are made by Fullswing in Hong Kong. Phoibos use the same Fullswing made cases in their PX002 pieces.
    I suppose Gunter Steinhart didn't copy the 16610 case as the patent hasn't expired on it yet, hence the straight rather than curved down lugs used.
    Its a shame, as I always thought the Ocean One series would look better in a 16610 case rather than the straight lug Fullswing one.
    I believe the flat lug cases are simply cheaper to make rather than having anything to do with patents. You can use thinner stock/blanks and less machining is required.

    I don't know if Gunter designed the Ocean 1, my understanding is that it was originally a Grovana catalogue watch (ie "your name here") which Grovana offered directly (as the Coral Reef) as well as selling your logo here versions to Steinhart and others. And Grovana of course - as you say - were having them substantially made in Asia.

    The full history is quite convoluted and as with many 'swiss made' watches the parties involved are very cagey about where things are made etc. To put Swiss-made branding on it they must satisfy some legal criteria but whether anyone is auditing that thoroughly is another question.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    I believe the flat lug cases are simply cheaper to make rather than having anything to do with patents. You can use thinner stock/blanks and less machining is required.

    I don't know if Gunter designed the Ocean 1, my understanding is that it was originally a Grovana catalogue watch (ie "your name here") which Grovana offered directly (as the Coral Reef) as well as selling your logo here versions to Steinhart and others. And Grovana of course - as you say - were having them substantially made in Asia.

    The full history is quite convoluted and as with many 'swiss made' watches the parties involved are very cagey about where things are made etc. To put Swiss-made branding on it they must satisfy some legal criteria but whether anyone is auditing that thoroughly is another question.

    The production costs flat lug v curved lug stainless steel cases are the same; as they are made from moulds, rather than machined from billets.
    A watch is considered Swiss if its movement is Swiss, if the movement has been assembled in the Swiss region, its final inspection occurred in Switzerland, and at least 60% of manufacturing costs are domestic.
    In reality there are many "Swiss made" watches that are assembled in Switzerland from Chinese made parts. The 60% Swiss parts isn't enforced legally in reality.
    Federique Constant is a good example; was aquired by Citizen in 2017. So really what one is buying is a Japanese watch assembled in Switzerland. So technically, yes; it is Swiss made.
    With regards to Grovana, as I understand it when Steinhart was sold as Debaufre in America (before they parted company) they used Grovana cases. But after that Gunter switched to Fullswing for the cases and bracelets.
    Personally I don't have a problem with an Ocean One using a Hong Kong made case, with a genuine Swiss ETA movement. Its excellent value/quality for the price tier.
    Apparently Omega makes it bracelets in China now.




  • The production costs flat lug v curved lug stainless steel cases are the same; as they are made from moulds, rather than machined from billets.
    They're stamped from a long billet, go through a few steps of forging and then CNC machined.

    A manufacturer like Full Swing will primarily do only final the CNC steps, they get a case blank from another supplier. The less material they have to remove, the cheaper it is (and the cheaper the case blank). You're only talking tens of cents, but thats considered significant at this price bracket.

    http://www.fullswing.com.hk/factory/Case_Production.html


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    They're stamped from a long billet, go through a few steps of forging and then CNC machined.

    A manufacturer like Full Swing will primarily do only final the CNC steps, they get a case blank from another supplier. The less material they have to remove, the cheaper it is (and the cheaper the case blank). You're only talking tens of cents, but thats considered significant at this price bracket.

    Samples are made using CNC machines. This is too slow and time consuming for production cases where hundreds or thousands have to be made, so molds are used.
    The mold is in two parts - a die of the case is cut into a block of tool steel. A stamp is made in the outline of the die, and both are mounted on a press. Steel is put on the die, and the press forces the stamp down, pressing the steel into the die. The result is a case blank. A mold is made specifically for titanium or steel cases. One mold cannot be used for both metals, so if the same case is made in titanium and steel, two molds are needed.
    The blank is finished using CNC machines, polishing, drilling, etc.
    Steel cases are cold stamped, then put on a conveyor belt and run through an oven, to heat them. This relieves internal stresses resulting from the stamping process. titanium cases are heated before they are stamped in the mold.
    Once a blank is made, there is flexibility in how it is finished, both internally and externally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭dango


    RunRoryRun wrote: »
    Thanks for posting - my first non f91w casio! Looking forward to delivery.

    Have had mine 7 years and it's still like new. Well wear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭2shea


    A 114270 sold in 2012 with box and papers, I think it's a bargain at just over 5k

    http://www.ponti-collection.ch/fr/horlogerie?liste=select&id=3053


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    2shea wrote: »
    A 114270 sold in 2012 with box and papers, I think it's a bargain at just over 5k

    http://www.ponti-collection.ch/fr/horlogerie?liste=select&id=3053

    No service history. It would have been due a 5 year service in 2017 you see.
    I see this a lot with brands with expensive service costs, often the owner will sell them on when a service is due, and let the new owner take the hit.
    You see that 5K piece doesn't look like such a bargain when one adds 1K service charge to it. At 6K one could just buy an already serviced one, or unserviced newer one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭2shea


    No service history. It would have been due a 5 year service in 2017 you see.
    I see this a lot with brands with expensive service costs, often the owner will sell them on when a service is due, and let the new owner take the hit.
    You see that 5K piece doesn't look like such a bargain when one adds 1K service charge to it. At 6K one could just buy an already serviced one, or unserviced newer one.

    My 214270 has a 10 year service interval. I wouldn't worry too much about the service history. €1000 for a first service, I think it's a bit less then that for a basic service is it not?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    2shea wrote: »
    My 214270 has a 10 year service interval. I wouldn't worry too much about the service history. €1000 for a first service, I think it's a bit less then that for a basic service is it not?

    To be honest with you, I have never had a Rolex piece serviced. I sold them on unserviced. But with regards to servicing, the cost really depends on what needs to be done. It depends on if it needs more polishing, or if it was worn a lot so more wear in the movement etc. Say we both sent off the same age/model pieces to Rolex service centre; we wouldn't both pay exactly the same 1K service price you see. Just like 2 VW Golf owners won't both pay the same for their 2012's first service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    I know of a similar Explorer privately offered for a considerably good bit less, full box and papers, a little older though, mid 2000s, provenance is trustworthy
    I didnt jump at it, somehow I dont get on with the appearance of the model, and it doesnt seem to be one of the more generally loved Rolex pieces either. What do people here think about Explorers?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    TedR wrote: »
    I know of a similar Explorer privately offered for a considerably good bit less, full box and papers, a little older though, mid 2000s, provenance is trustworthy
    I didnt jump at it, somehow I dont get on with the appearance of the model, and it doesnt seem to be one of the more generally loved Rolex pieces either. What do people here think about Explorers?

    I think the Explorer, and Submariner are 2 of Rolex most iconic pieces. Personally the attraction to the Explorer for me is that Ian Fleming wore one. I think perhaps that was the inspiration for James Bond wearing Rolex in his novels. Although in reality Sean Connery wore a 6538 because one of the film crew had one to loan him; rather than choosing it himself.
    With regards to the Explorer 2 Polar, its not liked well by the purists as they have a thing about steel sports pieces having black dials not white. But like the Milgauss its an excellent value/quality piece.
    The 9, 6, 3 Explorer dial has pedigree as the early 50's Submariner used it you see, so it has the pure Rolex heritage to the design. Its a shame they never reissued it at a 50th anniversary piece really.
    I was hoping for a Milgauss reissue for the same reason, as the early ones were a lovely design similar to the Tudor and Rolex Submariner's of the time.
    https://ibb.co/vBcDhm7
    https://ibb.co/Tb8fN9r
    https://ibb.co/GQzSR0K


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    You are making me rethink my position ;-)
    Its a black face 3,6,9. The price is very keen compared to the one that started this discussion. What to do....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    TedR wrote: »
    You are making me rethink my position ;-)
    Its a black face 3,6,9. The price is very keen compared to the one that started this discussion. What to do....

    My advice is, try one on. Then go home and sleep on it.
    Then if you still feel you want one the next day, you know its right for you.
    If however you feel any doubt, then don't buy it.
    Often I like the look of a piece online, but wearing it on my own wrist and I don't.
    I also find that sleeping on it, rather than just walking in to an AD and buying it the first day I try it on; avoids costly mistakes.
    Most importantly, buy a piece because you like it yourself; not because others do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    I m lucky enough to have a Sub Green Bezel 50 Anniv which is my daily wearer, so this is under consideration as a significant birthday gift to somebody else special; How and ever, I am bringing my own taste (or lack of it ;-)) to the potential deal


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    TedR wrote: »
    I m lucky enough to have a Sub Green Bezel 50 Anniv which is my daily wearer, so this is under consideration as a significant birthday gift to somebody else special; How and ever, I am bringing my own taste (or lack of it ;-)) to the potential deal

    The Kermit is a personal favourite of mine. I wished Rolex had reissued it with a ceramic bezel rather than the Hulk. Please post a picture of yours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    Sorry got overrun in work
    Will try to get a pic up shortly


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭micks_address


    TedR wrote: »
    Sorry got overrun in work
    Will try to get a pic up shortly
    Some great pieces in this video

    https://youtu.be/YrXaGFCij1A


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    Some great pieces in this video

    https://youtu.be/YrXaGFCij1A

    Thank you for posting the link. I have watched it a few times before. Incredible collection. Credit to John Mayer, he is a real watch guy that loves his pieces.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    The Kermit is a personal favourite of mine. I wished Rolex had reissued it with a ceramic bezel rather than the Hulk. Please post a picture of yours.

    Here goes with pic, I am terrible at this so not sure link will work
    Its the best I have, along with two of its mates

    Ive actually taken the green bezel off, partly for safe keeping, and I have a slightly battered black bezel on instead, so the watch currently looks like a standard black sub

    17396388026_806da478ef.jpgIMG_1856 by Eamonn Ryan, on Flickr


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭893bet


    A handsome trio!

    Get that PO on nato or rubber and it makes it a new watch!


  • Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭TedR


    Thanks, pretty good idea actually, I am not crazy about the PO steel band, whilst I love the Rolex Oyster one.
    I have a nice silver/black Nato that I got from HDMI, maybe ill try and stick that on the Omega, seems like a plan


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭893bet


    TedR wrote: »
    Thanks, pretty good idea actually, I am not crazy about the PO steel band, whilst I love the Rolex Oyster one.
    I have a nice silver/black Nato that I got from HDMI, maybe ill try and stick that on the Omega, seems like a plan

    Same as me. Love the oyster but the PO was not for me!

    I sold the bracelet in the end and replaced with black rubber with orange stitch and a black orange nato! So much better IMHO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,547 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    TedR wrote: »
    Ive actually taken the green bezel off, partly for safe keeping, and I have a slightly battered black bezel on instead, so the watch currently looks like a standard black sub

    What's the point of that? :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,416 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    unkel wrote: »
    What's the point of that? :p

    It’s quite common apparently but bizarre in my opinion

    The internet isn’t for everyone



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭893bet


    Agree it’s a pity not to wear but the bezel is so precious these days to protect value I can understand it but not relate to it.

    Some people are harder on watches and tend to bang them off everything I guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭2shea


    TedR wrote: »
    Here goes with pic, I am terrible at this so not sure link will work
    Its the best I have, along with two of its mates

    Ive actually taken the green bezel off, partly for safe keeping, and I have a slightly battered black bezel on instead, so the watch currently looks like a standard black sub
    r

    Great collection. An explorer would only ruin that :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 105 ✭✭theheavyhitter


    Many thanks for the picture. As Archie would say, a perfect 3 piece combo meal deal hunger buster.
    Credit to your good taste, 3 iconic pieces.
    Removing the green bezel insert is common, and sensible with regards to preserving the pieces value.
    Rolex typically change them when they service which devalues the piece.
    The Kermit is one of my favourite Rolex pieces of all time, I prefer it to my Hulk.
    Its a shame Tudor didn't reissue the Tudor Submariner in blue at Baselworld as the vintage Rolex case shape is lovely.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,416 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    All this chatter and not a single bargain today :D

    The internet isn’t for everyone



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