Evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by mi5

Manach · 22-04-2021 10:19pm

[Mod Note] This thread has been an informative and interesting thread. So just reminding that all posters are bound in an interest in these events from differing perspectives and so to avoid personalisation of discussions. Thanks.

Del.Monte · 22-04-2021 10:30pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

That's your prerogative to do so.

What would you say is the difference between a guerrilla war & a guerrilla insurgency?

If WW1 never took place & Carsons UVF carried out the violent threats they made to resist basically devo-max what would that have been?

It would have been an act of rebellion i.e an insurgency.

Del.Monte · 22-04-2021 10:36pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

My mother viewed them from the onset as well, she lived in Strabane from 1967 - 1981, the first person she seen get shot & klled was a deaf mute called Eammon McDevit who was shot in the back because he couldn't hear the soldier shouting.

It's a pretty famous case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles_in_Strabane#1971

I also remember reading Strabane was the most bombed town in Europe in the 1970's.

What county did you observe the so called "Troubles" from, Armagh, Tyrone, Down etc...?

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.

BalcombeSt4 · 24-04-2021 5:58pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.

That's interesting.

So I doubt you'd be old enough to remember the "Border Campaign" do you recall the 64 Divis flag riots or the UVF's original 66 campaign, if their was tension around that & the 50th anniversary of 1916?

I remember visiting my cousins when I was in my early teens in Crossmaglen in the early 90's & I got no feeling that it was a dangerous place to be in or anything, although I wasn't very politically aware. And historically Crossmaglen wasn't dangerous for civilians, of course the place was virtually 100% nationalist so why would there be tension except with the British Army & RUC, who I do not remember seeing much of, this was in 1993 so maybe they were hiding from the snipers.

breezy1985 · 25-04-2021 1:12pm

Purely going off the definitions I can find on war the Troubles would seem to be quite clearly a civil war with an insurgency being more like what is currently happening in the Donbass

patsman07 · 25-04-2021 9:49pm

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

steddyeddy · 02-05-2021 8:08am

patsman07 wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

John started out disbelieving the allegations that the British government were helping terrorists but changed his mind after the push back he received from those in the security forces.

ILoveYourVibes · 02-05-2021 8:47am

Manach wrote: »

MOD Note:
@ Ffff221.
Having two accounts post on the same thread violates the spirit of the History forum charter. Hence, please do not post on this thread again.

How come he is allowed two accounts?

BalcombeSt4 · 03-05-2021 5:27am

patsman07 wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

There were three sets of killings in the space of a month alleged to have been carried out by the RUC Mobile Support Unit. On the 11 November 1982 three IRA men were shot at a road block in east Lurgan, on the 24th November two civilians were shot in a farm near Lurgan and on the 12 December two INLA men were shot at a checkpoint in Mullacreavie, this one happened 6 days after the INLA bombed the Droppin Well pub in north Derry.

BalcombeSt4 · 17-05-2021 8:14pm

The Pat Finucane collusion murder scandal.

Investigation into Stevens inquiry.

thhh

Into the 1982 murders by RUC SPG of unarmed men

Douglas Hoggs commens about solicitors being to close to the IRA

Day after Finucane death

4 months later same UDA unit kill civilians again, this time 2 UDR arresed

UDA & UDR men in court

BalcombeSt4 · 11-06-2021 8:09pm

U2erthy wrote: »

Mi5 also had about 50 spies in the Ira
There's about 20 now still in it

Former police officer infiltrated New IRA’s high command over last eight years, it has emerged
Dennis McFadden infiltrated the New IRA’s high command over the last eight years, providing safe houses in Northern Ireland and Scotland that were in fact bugged by the Security Service while handing out free tickets for Celtic matches and drinks from the bar in his home.He played a central role in MI5’s Operation Arbacia, which culminated at the end of this summer with the arrest of nine suspected leading New IRA members, all of whom have been charged with directing acts of terrorism.The nine suspected New IRA figures charged with directing terrorism are Kevin Barry Murphy,50, Davy Jordan, 49, Damien McLaughlin, 44, Gary Hayden, 48, Joe Barr, 44, Shea Reynolds , 26, Paddy McDaid, 50, Sharon Jordan, 45, and Mandy Duffy, 49.10th suspect, Issam Bassalat, 62, a Palestinian doctor based in Scotland, has also been arrested and stands accused of preparation of terrorist acts. He was arrested at Heathrow airport in August. Bassalat claims he only made contact with republicans in Northern Ireland because he thought he was going over to speak at a Palestinian solidarity meeting in County Tyrone.McFadden had been an MI5 agent for more than two decades, initially infiltrating Sinn Féin and then, on orders from his handlers, making contact with violent republican dissidents shortly after the New IRA was founded in 2012As well as the arrests and the eventual presence of McFadden in the witness box to give evidence, his main achievement has been to sow paranoia and distrust within what is left of the New IRA,” the senior security source said. “The dissidents in Derry no longer trust the ones in Belfast and Tyrone who brought McFadden into their organisation. There are accusations of other informers in their ranks now. In terms of terrorist operations thwarted, captured weapons and good hard intelligence on this organisation, McFadden has dealt their morale a massive blow.”

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

[Deleted User] · 11-06-2021 8:11pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

The quote you are referencing refers to the new IRA, so that point is moot.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 8:16pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 8:24pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

But not one of the so called "IRA" groups are actually resisting British occupation they have not killed a single soldier or even a police man they spend most of their time doing punishment shootings and have managed to kill a few drug dealers and civilians not one of them has or had the guts to take on the army or even a policeman except planting a bomb under some PSNI mans car and failing miserably.

None of these groups have the right to call themselves IRA.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 8:27pm

guy2231 wrote: »

But not one of the so called "IRA" groups are actually resisting British occupation they have not killed a single soldier or even a police man they spend most of their time doing punishment shootings and have managed to kill a few drug dealers and civilians not one of them has or had the guts to take on the army or even a policeman except planting a bomb under some PSNI mans car and failing miserably.

None of these groups have the right to call themselves IRA.

But they are taking a risk planting an underside that is more then when we are doing. I would never denegrate any organisation who is taking the risk day and daily.

BalcombeSt4 · 11-06-2021 8:45pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 9:45pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

The RIRA definitely did not mean to kill a bunch of civilians anyone with half knowledge would know that this was the worst thing that could have happened to the RIRA and the last thing they would have wanted was civilian casualties they lost 90% of the support they had it was a worst case scenario it was a standard car bombing meant to damage infrastructure like thousannds of PIRA bombings did without casualties.

The bomb to end all bomb theory is a vague theory that could mean they made this bombing happen to end dissident republicanism before it even started in a number of ways.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 9:53pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

OK I'm gonna answer the most relevant points as yours is a big ****er of a post haha.

Firstly the NIRA have 3 of the most senior republicans to enter the fray after the border campaign. In 97 MMcK wwe quartermaster and was An elective to the AC, he walked and he took 3 of the council with him along with other members. At that time the POWs were lingering and didn't know where their loyalties were.

I don't hate the PIRA, I walked from Sinn fein in 2005 when Seanna walsh read the statement from the army as it was then a constitutional nationalist party, we lost our bargaining chip. The only reason the Border poll is on the table is because of Brexit.

The PRM and the RSM were highly skilled and had a lot more personnel so compairings attacks doesn't really hold weight. The NIRA and the RIRA before them were born into a highly motivated intelligence state after years of IRA activity, which made it harder to operate.

When I was in Belfast in 70s 80s and 90s I moved to the republic in 2002, operations happened in broad daylight. Volunteers engages the Brits on the streets you cannot do that now as appetite is gone for trouble. People are terrified of supporting republicans as the Brits are one step ahead or have them heavily infiltrated a bit of both I believe.

Currently the NIRA alleged AC is in maghaberry and the Laois, these men and women along with a few others in North Armagh and Derry aren't idiots these are men and women who have lived every day of their life for the implementation of an Irish republic, to disrespect them like such is a disgrace.

The NIRA were an amalgamation of the reals, RAAd and the ET brigade (the et were the most efficient to the level of south armagh) you cannot be serious when you speak so flippantly about them. I'm not saying every member of the NIRA is on par with Bobby sands, Joe McKelvey, Joe Cahill but there is people there who are.

The Brits DID allow Omagh they communicated a different message from switchboard to officers on the ground and walked the people into the explosion. It was infiltrated by a tout and ramped up by the Brits.

The IRA broke the ceasefire on a number of occasions regarding ops in the districts.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 10:09pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

OK I'm gonna answer the most relevant points as yours is a big ****er of a post haha.

Firstly the NIRA have 3 of the most senior republicans to enter the fray after the border campaign. In 97 MMcK wwe quartermaster and was An elective to the AC, he walked and he took 3 of the council with him along with other members. At that time the POWs were lingering and didn't know where their loyalties were.

I don't hate the PIRA, I walked from Sinn fein in 2005 when Seanna walsh read the statement from the army as it was then a constitutional nationalist party, we lost our bargaining chip. The only reason the Border poll is on the table is because of Brexit.

The PRM and the RSM were highly skilled and had a lot more personnel so compairings attacks doesn't really hold weight. The NIRA and the RIRA before them were born into a highly motivated intelligence state after years of IRA activity, which made it harder to operate.

When I was in Belfast in 70s 80s and 90s I moved to the republic in 2002, operations happened in broad daylight. Volunteers engages the Brits on the streets you cannot do that now as appetite is gone for trouble. People are terrified of supporting republicans as the Brits are one step ahead or have them heavily infiltrated a bit of both I believe.

Currently the NIRA alleged AC is in maghaberry and the Laois, these men and women along with a few others in North Armagh and Derry aren't idiots these are men and women who have lived every day of their life for the implementation of an Irish republic, to disrespect them like such is a disgrace.

The NIRA were an amalgamation of the reals, RAAd and the ET brigade (the et were the most efficient to the level of south armagh) you cannot be serious when you speak so flippantly about them. I'm not saying every member of the NIRA is on par with Bobby sands, Joe McKelvey, Joe Cahill but there is people there who are.

The Brits DID allow Omagh they communicated a different message from switchboard to officers on the ground and walked the people into the explosion. It was infiltrated by a tout and ramped up by the Brits.

The IRA broke the ceasefire on a number of occasions regarding ops in the districts.

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support from people.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 10:13pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support for people.

Christy Robinson? Harry Fitz ? Colly Duffy? Alex McCrory? Paddy McDaid? Kevin Braney? Kevin Hannaway? Mandy Duffy?

Some absolutely staunch republicans currently charged with alleged NIRA activity I could name a load more. These arent criminals or johnny come latelys.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 10:14pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support for people.

Christy Robinson? Harry Fitz ? Colly Duffy? Alex McCrory? Paddy McDaid? Kevin Braney? Kevin Hannaway? Mandy Duffy?

Some absolutely staunch republicans currently charged with alleged NIRA activity I could name a load more. These arent criminals or johnny come latelys.

[Deleted User] · 11-06-2021 10:20pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support from people.

They are a pretty serious operation though and have built some political support across a fairly broad age group and have members/supporters jn every county

..they wont bring the north back to war as a unity referendum is more likely than not over mext few years,but they certainly arent a joke either

(if ireland had a proper government,they would be speaking out againest mi5 operating with no political over sight on our island againest irish citizens...the cases from arrests from last summer will collapse under scrutiny

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 11:24pm

Blaaz_ wrote: »

They are a pretty serious operation though and have built some political support across a fairly broad age group and have members/supporters jn every county

..they wont bring the north back to war as a unity referendum is more likely than not over mext few years,but they certainly arent a joke either

(if ireland had a proper government,they would be speaking out againest mi5 operating with no political over sight on our island againest irish citizens...the cases from arrests from last summer will collapse under scrutiny

I disagree completely with the current futile campaign it will only lead to needless deaths of people who don't deserve to die and they will die for nothing, they have not done anything notable and barely even try by the looks of things.

I don't agree with killing PSNI members at all they are decent people doing their best.

MOD NOTE
@guy2231 : Material that is contrary to the History forum's guidelines on civility and violence has been removed. Please considering reading those guidelines and tempering any future posts or you will be carded.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 11:34pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I disagree completely with the current futile campaign it will only lead to needless deaths of people who don't deserve to die and they will die for nothing, they have not done anything notable and barely even try by the looks of things.

I don't agree with killing PSNI members at all they are decent people doing their best, if anyone at all anywhere in the world wants to kill a few British soldiers I would have no problem with that, I have never shed any tears for murderous oppressive scum they deserve all they get and more.

You don't agree with attacking the PSNI?

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 11:39pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

You don't agree with attacking the PSNI?

Not one bit unless the political climate changed drastically.

[Deleted User] · 11-06-2021 11:45pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I disagree completely with the current futile campaign it will only lead to needless deaths of people who don't deserve to die and they will die for nothing, they have not done anything notable and barely even try by the looks of things.

I don't agree with killing PSNI members at all they are decent people doing their best, if anyone at all anywhere in the world wants to kill a few British soldiers I would have no problem with that, I have never shed any tears for murderous oppressive scum they deserve all they get and more.

The psni are backed up by the british army and use em for bomb disposal among other things,how can yous view them as anything other than a wing of british army/security forces

What would yous call psni members confiscating hurleys off kids and calling em fenian scum?

Yous may disagree with armed struggle,im skeptical of its merits given likelyhood pf a unity poll...but support for the psni is pretty low brow acceptance of british rule here

[Deleted User] · 11-06-2021 11:50pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

You don't agree with attacking the PSNI?

it wont acheive anything.....just highlight their impartiality,corruption,continued blaggarding around HET and drain the support from all sides

Shinners stood on a policy of holding police to account and have done anything but since....its long since time to stop indulging the psni,every year passes they decend further and further back into sectarianism....its an utter failure and consistantly covered up by media

guy2231 · 12-06-2021 2:03am

Ffff221 wrote: »

The Stevens inquiry an official British government inquiry set up after pressure from Europe about collusion, during his investigations, Stevens and his team arrested 210 paramilitary suspects, of whom, he said, 207 were MI5 agents.

During his investigation his offices and all his files burnt down in a mysterious fire, he was told by a senior RUC officer that the FRU had most likely done this (the main agency running agents in Northern Ireland) which despite being sent to investigate collusion he never even heard about the main agency responsible for it.

In relation to the Dublin Monaghan bombings At the time of the bombings, Colin Wallace was a
top British Intelligence Corps officer and a psychological warfare specialist at the British Army's Northern Ireland headquarters. Since his resignation in 1975, he has exposed scandals involving the security forces, including state collusion with loyalists and most famous of all he exposed the kincora boys scandal years before anyone else even mentioned it, He gave evidence to the Barron Inquiry

In an August 1975 letter to Tony Stoughton, chief of the British Army Information Service in Northern Ireland, Wallace writes:

There is good evidence the Dublin bombings in May last year were a reprisal for the Irish government's role in bringing about the [power sharing] Executive. According to one of Craig's people [Craig Smellie, the top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland], most of those involved – the Youngs, the Jacksons, Mulholland, Hanna, Kerr and McConnell – were working closely with [Special Branch] and [Military Intelligence] at that time. Craig's people believe the sectarian assassinations were designed to destroy Rees's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, and the targets were identified for both sides by [Intelligence/Special Branch]. They also believe some very senior RUC officers were involved with this group. In short, it would appear that loyalist paramilitaries and [Intelligence/Special Branch] have formed some sort of pseudo gangs in an attempt to fight a war of attrition against the IRA by getting paramilitaries on both sides to kill each other and at the same time prevent any future political initiative.

In a further letter of September 1975, Wallace wrote that MI5 was backing a group of UVF hardliners who opposed the UVF's move toward politics. He added:

I believe most of the sectarian violence generated during the later part of the year was caused by some of the new [Intelligence] people deliberately stirring up the conflict. As you know, we have never been allowed to target the breakaway UVF, nor the UFF, during the past year. Yet they have killed more people than the IRA!
;
Mod Note: Please provide links to assist other posters to discuss.

Evidence is overwhelming in relation to loyalist collusion only the people who haven't bothered looking into it are in denial about it.

Members of the security forces involved in loyalist attacks were named in the book Lethal Allies, written by Anne Cadwallader, a veteran journalist and caseworker for the Pat Finucance center, She analyses how British colonial rule attempted to divide in order to conquer; British officer Frank Kitson Army commander, who was stationed in Northern Ireland from 1970-72, developed a strategy using “gangs” to fight independence movements, and described the law as “little more than a propaganda cover for the disposal of unwanted members of the public.”

guy2231 · 12-06-2021 2:07am

On 16 January 1981, Bernadette Devlin and her husband were shot by members of the Ulster Freedom Fighters, a cover name of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), who broke into their home near Coalisland, County Tyrone.

The gunmen shot Devlin nine times in front of her children.
The SAS were watching the McAliskey home at the time, but instead of arresting the loyalist killers on the way in, they arrested them on the way out instead, it has been claimed that Devlin's assassination was ordered by British authorities at the highest level and that collusion was more than likely.

A perfect example of proxy warfare, I mean why do it yourself when you can manipulate others into doing it for you and then arrest them afterwards to make yourself appear to be the good guys merely keeping the peace

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cqSpEOO_Wfc&list=PL1CF73895A9142DF4&index=26

BalcombeSt4 · 24-06-2021 1:41pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support from people.

Yes, this is basically what I was getting at.

If me & a group of my friends called ourselves the INLA or IRA, that would not make us the INLA or IRA.

I mean just look at the gap in quality from these interviews between their spokesmen from GHQ of the "New" IRA, & Provos.

An interview from 1992 on French TV with a Provo GHQ rep. This guy is clearly quite intelligent, very articulate, explains the PIRA's strategy well, and is able to give logical & precise justifications for IRA actions, whether you agree with his answers is another thing.

This next guy is a spokesman for the "New" IRA, it's from 2019 for German TV. He can't justify any of his groups actions, he's not very articulate or seemingly intelligent & it's a bit cringe watching it.

You read in books & hear in documentaries all the time, that the thing that made the PIRA so effective was that the British tabloid image of your average IRA man as a blood thirsty mad-man was wrong, and that PIRA Volunteers were smart & articulate people, like Tommy & Padraig McKearney from Moy in East Tyrone, Brendan Hughes, Ivor Bell, Angelo Fusco & Joe Doherty from Belfast, and the people who went purely into Sinn Fein like Adams & McGuinness who were both former IRA Chief of Staffs, Danny Morrison who was the powerful propagandist for both the IRA & SF, and Gerry Kelly, the Old Bailey bomber, 205 day Hunger Stricker, 1983 Maze escape leader & set up sleeper cells in mainland in Germany & Holland in the mid 80's, who is now a MLA at Stormont.

Evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by mi5

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