Dun Laoghaire Traffic & Commuting Chat

Tarabuses · 12-06-2021 7:33pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

That doesn't make her the Mayor.

pm1977x wrote: »

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I never said it did.

I know but Dublinlive apparently did.

Zaney · 12-06-2021 7:49pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Hi Zaney, just back from DL the place was hoppin', great athmosphere it was brilliant!

I have to pull you up on this. Dun Laoghaire is edgy, Dun Laoghaire is interesting, Dun Laoghaire has its fair share of gougers but Dun Laoghaire is never sanitised, never pasturesied and certainly NEVER undesirable. Maybe just not for you?

BTW I cycled through Marine rd., Georges St., Monkstown etc and saw nowhere that the street furniture would cause somebody with a buggy to move onto the road. I think that there is a bit more to your original story, is there?

Are you familiar with the dimensions of a double buggy? I certainly am. I possibly just have too many children, but not much I can do about that now.

Double buggies are not all that uncommon and I think it’s reasonable to expect sufficient footpath widths in a urban area where the council wants to promote walking and cycling over cars. There’s also the issue of buggies having to pass other buggies coming the opposite way. Or wheelchairs passing buggies etc....

Before the addition of extra outdoor dining many of our pavements are just not wide enough and now there’s even less space. Just becoming very difficult to get around as a parent with young kids.

Cyrus · 12-06-2021 7:52pm

Mav11 wrote: »

For Gods sake, you really are scrapping the end of the barrel now.

Look back, I said it wasn't desirable but not completely unacceptable. I don't know what world you live in, but in my world people have to go onto the road occasionally. It's not the end of the world, no need to have a constitutional referendum or call in the Health and Safety inspectors. Get a grip!

Not at all very straightforward contradiction. Surprised you couldn't see it.

Mav11 · 12-06-2021 7:55pm

Zaney wrote: »

Are you familiar with the dimensions of a double buggy? I certainly am. I possibly just have too many children, but not much I can do about that now.

Double buggies are not all that uncommon and I think it’s reasonable to expect sufficient footpath widths in a urban area where the council wants to promote walking and cycling over cars. There’s also the issue of buggies having to pass other buggies coming the opposite way. Or wheelchairs passing buggies etc....

Before the addition of extra outdoor dining many of our pavements are just not wide enough and now there’s even less space. Just becoming very difficult to get around as a parent with young kids.

Fair point Zaney, I am not familiar with double buggy dimensions. Thank you for clarification of the issue. Not sure what the solution is!

Mav11 · 12-06-2021 7:56pm

Cyrus wrote: »

Not at all very straightforward contradiction. Surprised you couldn't see it.

Grand so!

Gareth Keenan · 12-06-2021 8:21pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Kingstown and Queenstown.

when I was a very young fella, my granddad told me a joke dating from his own youth.

If a man went into a public house and asked for a Kingstown, a Queenstown, and a Free State; what three drinks would the barman give him?

A large port, a small port and a Baby Power

I'm here all week folks.

Mav11 · 12-06-2021 8:40pm

Gareth Keenan wrote: »

when I was a very young fella, my granddad told me a joke dating from his own youth.

If a man went into a public house and asked for a Kingstown, a Queenstown, and a Free State; what three drinks would the barman give him?

A large port, a small port and a Baby Power

I'm here all week folks.

Brilliant, never heard that one. But the port of Queenstown (Cork harbour) is far bigger than that of Kingstown. Showing my roots now:D

I’m sure that will start a row.

12-06-2021 8:59pm

Zaney wrote: »

Double buggies are not all that uncommon and I think it’s reasonable to expect sufficient footpath widths in a urban area where the council wants to promote walking and cycling over cars.

It was your choice to pick a side by side double buggy rather than one where the two children sat one behind the other, which is far more common elsewhere in Europe in my experience.

Looking back, you were being rather disingenuous. It's akin to buying a Hummer and complaining about parking spaces being tight - why do you expect society to account for edge cases that represent your personal preferences?

There’s also the issue of buggies having to pass other buggies coming the opposite way. Or wheelchairs passing buggies etc....

It's not incredibly complicated for one person to pull in and let another pass in a pinch point. It's actually the norm, whether driving, walking, cycling or pushing a buggy.

Gareth Keenan · 12-06-2021 9:02pm

Mav11 wrote: »

Brilliant, never heard that one. But the port of Queenstown (Cork harbour) is far bigger than that of Kingstown. Showing my roots now:D

I’m sure that will start a row.

Isn't Queenstown Cobh? Stop wrecking my granddad's jokes FFS

Anyway, I'm sure we are all agreed that Kingstown/DL is a far better harbour :cool:

Mav11 · 12-06-2021 9:17pm

Gareth Keenan wrote: »

Isn't Queenstown Cobh? Stop wrecking my granddad's jokes FFS

Anyway, I'm sure we are all agreed that Kingstown/DL is a far better harbour :cool:

Wrecking your grandads joke? I think it’s making it even better. A great joke. But you’re pushing it by asking me which one is best. County loyalty is being tested:)

Zaney · 12-06-2021 9:18pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was your choice to pick a side by side double buggy rather than one where the two children sat one behind the other, which is far more common elsewhere in Europe in my experience.

Looking back, you were being rather disingenuous. It's akin to buying a Hummer and complaining about parking spaces being tight - why do you expect society to account for edge cases that represent your personal preferences?

It's not incredibly complicated for one person to pull in and let another pass in a pinch point. It's actually the norm, whether driving, walking, cycling or pushing a buggy.

I said in my first post on the issue that I had a double buggy. I was not trying to be disingenuous. Others took on the debate after that.

I don’t consider a double buggy an edge case, they are common. Certainly more common than any Hummer in Ireland.

Even the front and back double buggies tend to have a wider wheelbase to give them stability.

A lot of the new street furniture make even pulling in and pulling out harder. If a previously two lane road was reduced to one and still expected to cater for two way traffic there would be a hell of a backlash. What is happening to our pavements is not unlike this.

For your example it’s more like there were wide parking spaces, I bought a hummer and then the parking spaces were make smaller and I can’t park anymore.

Mav11 · 12-06-2021 9:26pm

Zaney wrote: »

I said in my first post on the issue that I had a double buggy. I was not trying to be disingenuous. Others took on the debate after that.

I don’t consider a double buggy an edge case, they are common. Certainly more common than any Hummer in Ireland.

Even the front and back double buggies tend to have a wider wheelbase to give them stability.

A lot of the new street furniture make even pulling in and pulling out harder. If a previously two lane road was reduced to one and still expected to cater for two way traffic there would be a hell of a backlash. What is happening to our pavements is not unlike this.

For your example it’s more like there were wide parking spaces, I bought a hummer and then the parking spaces were make smaller and I can’t park anymore.

I have to agree and initially I didn’t get it, but whether side by side or stacked, double buggies must be very awkward to maneuver around obstacles.

JayRoc · 13-06-2021 8:23am

I'd imagine the width of a double buggy is somewhat akin to that of a wheelchair?

And (as someone who has no connection to any wheelchair user) I notice so many places on footpaths around here that a wheelchair couldn't get by. Usually due to dickheads parking on the path to be fair .

But while I am absolutely in favour of increased street furniture for businesses at the moment there still needs to be room for other pavement users to get by.

markpb · 13-06-2021 10:12am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was your choice to pick a side by side double buggy rather than one where the two children sat one behind the other, which is far more common elsewhere in Europe in my experience.

Looking back, you were being rather disingenuous. It's akin to buying a Hummer and complaining about parking spaces being tight - why do you expect society to account for edge cases that represent your personal preferences?

What a hilarious comparison. A double buggy is about 75cm wide. An average street in Dun Laoghaire is between 7m and 10m wide. How selfish of someone to expect to be allocated less 10% of the available width for their two children. Wait till you see the amount of space cars take up, you’re in for a surprise!

By the way, there are good reasons to pick a side by side buggy instead of the alternatives. If you have children of a similar (young) age, they’re more or less a necessity. Maybe you think having twins is a selfish life choice too?

patrickbrophy18 · 13-06-2021 1:59pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

@pat, the aircoach route 703 doesn't turn from the R119 onto Castlepark Road using the junction you were initially complaining about.

Sorry, I used the wrong quote. I was meant to use the quote pertaining to the Squareabout which is part of route 703. In any case, I think the loss of road space and the resultant limitations on the size of vehicle capable of using roads due to junction tightening is a downgrade especially, on arterial routes which is precisely what Castlepark, Hyde and Breffni Roads are. There are many other better ways these junctions could have been made safer without crippling accessibility. A road less capable is a downgrade.

I don't mind these measures on side roads and cul de sacs as they only serve the residents living there.

Mav11 · 13-06-2021 2:40pm

I hope that the black tarmac surface on the new Myrtle Sq. is only temporary? Doesn't look a bit like this, not in the least attractive.

No sign of the acrobats either:)

13-06-2021 2:43pm

markpb wrote: »

What a hilarious comparison. A double buggy is about 75cm wide. An average street in Dun Laoghaire is between 7m and 10m wide. How selfish of someone to expect to be allocated less 10% of the available width for their two children. Wait till you see the amount of space cars take up, you’re in for a surprise!

By the way, there are good reasons to pick a side by side buggy instead of the alternatives. If you have children of a similar (young) age, they’re more or less a necessity. Maybe you think having twins is a selfish life choice too?

What a hilariously illogical and irrational comparison.

Why are you bringing in the width of roads in a discussion about more pavement space being allocated to outdoor seating?

Yes absolutely more space should be allocated away from cars to walkers and cyclists, that's entirely a separate issue from someone complaining that there's an issue with outdoor seating because they have an abnormally large buggy.

This was the original post:

In Dún Laoghaire itself today when a business was setting out tables that I couldn’t walk past on the pavement, with the buggy, I asked if space could be left to get past. The response was “f*#k off”. I think the person regretted their gut response when I challenged them, so I won’t mention the business. But the residual pavement space in some locations is just awful.

The user was not complaining about vehicular road space, and was not suggesting or implying the road space should be taken away from cars and given to pedestrians, they were explicitly stating that the current non-road space should be re-allocated more toward people with double buggies - yet here you are pretending it's part of the discussion I'm responding to.

Also no, wheelchairs are significantly narrower than double buggies and side-by-side buggies aren't a 'necessity'. As I already said, on the continent the fore/aft or tandem buggies are the standard and you can see this in how pedestrian infrastructure is designed (including the ramps inset on stairs so that buggies can use them without needing to install separate ramps).

I'd suggest thinking more about what you're posting before hitting reply in the future, but I'm sure you won't.

fixXxer · 13-06-2021 4:03pm

Zaney wrote: »

Was in Dun Laoghaire again today. Bits and Pizza’s have a new rooftop dining area.

Might have to go see if they still do their wonderful chicken wing pizza.

markpb · 13-06-2021 4:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What a hilariously illogical and irrational comparison.

Why are you bringing in the width of roads in a discussion about more pavement space being allocated to outdoor seating?

Yes absolutely more space should be allocated away from cars to walkers and cyclists, that's entirely a separate issue from someone complaining that there's an issue with outdoor seating because they have an abnormally large buggy.

This was the original post:

The user was not complaining about vehicular road space, and was not suggesting or implying the road space should be taken away from cars and given to pedestrians, they were explicitly stating that the current non-road space should be re-allocated more toward people with double buggies - yet here you are pretending it's part of the discussion I'm responding to.

Also no, wheelchairs are significantly narrower than double buggies and side-by-side buggies aren't a 'necessity'. As I already said, on the continent the fore/aft or tandem buggies are the standard and you can see this in how pedestrian infrastructure is designed (including the ramps inset on stairs so that buggies can use them without needing to install separate ramps).

I'd suggest thinking more about what you're posting before hitting reply in the future, but I'm sure you won't.

I’m sorry. You’re still attempting to argue that someone with a 75cm buggy is looking for an unnecessary amount of space. Also some weird suggestion that they should buy a different buggy for reasons known only to you and that your choice of buggy would work if our footpaths were different.

I’m glad we agree that pedestrians deserve more space than they currently get. Perhaps fixing that would be better than blaming the people with the audacity to use the limited space with a pram type you dislike?

uberwolf · 13-06-2021 4:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also no, wheelchairs are significantly narrower than double buggies and side-by-side buggies aren't a 'necessity'.

Irish Wheelchair association says minimum 900mm for wheelchair accessible entrance - https://www.iwa.ie/access-guidelines/great-outdoors-access-guidelines/7-access-to-the-built-environment/

Bugaboo double buggy is 74cm width. https://www.mamasandpapas.ie/collections/twin-buggies-tandem/products/bugaboo-donkey-3-duo-grey-melange-2272u7700

being able to navigate a path with either is hardly an extreme position to take.

AndrewJRenko · 13-06-2021 5:59pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also no, wheelchairs are significantly narrower than double buggies .

Not true for many power wheelchairs. Maybe their users should also have chosen something different?

smackyB · 13-06-2021 8:36pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Sorry, I used the wrong quote. I was meant to use the quote pertaining to the Squareabout which is part of route 703. In any case, I think the loss of road space and the resultant limitations on the size of vehicle capable of using roads due to junction tightening is a downgrade especially, on arterial routes which is precisely what Castlepark, Hyde and Breffni Roads are. There are many other better ways these junctions could have been made safer without crippling accessibility. A road less capable is a downgrade.

I don't mind these measures on side roads and cul de sacs as they only serve the residents living there.

The road has not been downgraded - it has been upgraded to facilitate the movement of vulnerable road users, which I'd wager is a much larger cohort than the occasional HGV.

I regularly walk across the junction of hyde/castle park and the change is hugely positive. The width needing to be crossed has been much reduced and traffic which previously took the corner at great speed has now had manners put on it by the increased junction angle. More of this please DLRCC.

patrickbrophy18 · 13-06-2021 10:41pm

smackyB wrote: »

The road has not been downgraded - it has been upgraded to facilitate the movement of vulnerable road users, which I'd wager is a much larger cohort than the occasional HGV.

I regularly walk across the junction of hyde/castle park and the change is hugely positive. The width needing to be crossed has been much reduced and traffic which previously took the corner at great speed has now had manners put on it by the increased junction angle. More of this please DCC.

While I acknowledge that the width of the junction before was excessive, I do think the tightening of it to near 90° is going from "one extreme to the other" as "Aegir" rightly pointed out several pages back. A good few years ago, there were plans for a roundabout at this junction and Hyde Road which I would argue is a much better solution as it doesn't result in awkward turning angles.

I also realize that there is a school in the area which results in many kids traversing these roads on foot. Then there is Our Ladys Manor in the vicinity which results in the elderly crossing these roads by foot as well. However, this default response of making these turns 90° is incredibly short sighted due to the inherent accissibility issues it causes. There are other solutions to this which don't result in a de facto hard limit on vehicle sizes using these roads.

You do realize that buses are a part of the solution in taking cars off the road which in my opinion hasn't been explored or tested in Dalkey as much as it could. As a prospective bus route aligment, a more future proof solution should've been chosen for Castlepark Road. In a twist of irony, 90° turns will only make Dalkey accessible by car, bike or on foot. Anyway, I have said what I will on the matter.

Zaney · 14-06-2021 11:46am

Mav11 wrote: »

I hope that the black tarmac surface on the new Myrtle Sq. is only temporary? Doesn't look a bit like this, not in the least attractive.

No sign of the acrobats either:)

It’ll never look like that because the dimensions are wrong. They haven’t left room for the two way access and taxi rank.

Also they’ve neglected to show the row of portaloos.

But the sandy coloured surface will likely go in. Not sure about the ugly bollards.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/finance/summer-streets-d-n-laoghaire/supporting_documents/Summer%20Streets_Dun%20Laighoire_Proposed%20Myrtle%20Square%20Layout.pdf

crushproof · 14-06-2021 12:10pm

Hopefully Dunphys take advantage and set up tables and umbrellas on some of the new space. DLRCC should get in some food vans at weekends to drum up business and get the word out about the new square.

Tarmac is fine in the interim for the summer so it's not closed off during the best days of the year. Proper landscaping can take place in the winter!

ted1 · 14-06-2021 12:34pm

crushproof wrote: »

Hopefully Dunphys take advantage and set up tables and umbrellas on some of the new space. DLRCC should get in some food vans at weekends to drum up business and get the word out about the new square.

Tarmac is fine in the interim for the summer so it's not closed off during the best days of the year. Proper landscaping can take place in the winter!

Tarmac is used as a base, before they put in the top layer of surface dressing.

Chinasea · 15-06-2021 12:44pm

Hopefully there will be an end to cars practically driving up the middle isle of Bloomfields Tescos and or bellowing out their toxic fumes wile they keep their engines running as they illegally park in/on/beside the yellow grid at the main entrance. Guarantee there will always be at least one outside anytime. Never taken to task. Pure selfish idleness.