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The curse of Mica house blocks in Donegal homes - Read mod warning in Post No: 1

  • 14-08-2018 1:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Since this is primarily a Donegal issue (although some other counties may be affected in small numbers), it's good to see it finally get some national coverage.

    There has been a shockingly slow response to this major issue by the authorities. People's homes are worthless, can't be insured and are literally crumbling.

    A lot of homes near me are affected, and I do think if this was happening in Dublin it would have been addresses years ago. Pyrite anyone?

    Hopefully all these people affected can get some sort of redress scheme. It's going to cost a lot to fix, but surely these people can't be abandoned.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/young-irish-mum-tells-how-13077958



    ******* Mod warning:

    This topic is a very emotive one especially for those who have homes with mica. The forum mods will not allow comments that are insensitive. Accordingly words and phrases such as “McMansions, “blank cheque” "free upgrades", "begging bowl", "hand outs", etc etc including similar or combinations thereof will be removed and/or the poster banned from the thread. Do not post in bold/highlight in this thread as that is reserved for mod posting only.

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    Post edited by muffler on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    The government have been dragging their heels on this issue since they came into power / dance to FF's tune. Pretty pathetic considering the seriousness of the issue.

    There were to be a number of civil cases taken against the quarry involved but I havent heard any more about this in recent times. Im aware of one firm of solicitors had 11 separate cases to deal with but that was years ago so there may well be more now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I think it's fairly safe to say that the supplier involved will just go bust if too many people decide to take them to court, that's why it's so important for the government to get involved asap.

    Some of the houses I have seen are really bad. I'd not feel safe sleeping in them at night, and I wonder is it going to take a house collapse and personal injury (or worse) before something tangible is done?

    There is chat of a redress scheme in 2019, but it needs to come withiut delay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭IP freely


    I see Cassidys have come out and said they are suing RTE for there program on it.

    You really couldn't make it up...


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    It took them long enough to issue any public comment. In fairness their legal eagles may have been responsible for their silence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    It's fairly common knowledge they didn't want to ever admit liability, as that would give everyone the go ahead to sue them.

    And I'd say once they start getting sued, they'll fold.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Is it true that Cassidys weren't insured? I thought I heard that mentioned on Highland Radio last week but Im not sure in what context though i.e. may have been a statement of fact or may have been an allegation by someone contacting the station.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Never heard that. What type of insurance would cover that though?

    There's one thing for certain, this problem isn't going to be fixed withiut government intervention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    Cassidys are not the only quarry involved, not by a long shot. Only the tip of the iceberg may be showing up at the moment.

    Concrete blocks contaminated with mica silicate minerals can take anywhere from 5 - 50 years to fail depending on the % of mica silicate. I know an honest contractor that won a tender for a large project involving a lot of block work in Donegal very recently. He took it upon himself to independently test blocks from every major blockwork supplier in Donegal for any unacceptable high mica silicate content, as he is meticulous in his dealings, takes no chances, is very conscientious about the work he does and it's legacy. (Unusual these days I know, especially in the construction industry)

    ALL of the quarries blockwork failed the independent tests for unacceptable mica silicate levels, bar two quarries in the south west of Donegal. These are from blocks being produced, sold and used TODAY. It's business as usual as far as the quarries are concerned, and to hell with whoever will have to pick up the tab.

    Seems of Mica minerals can run through the rock formations in many areas of the north west, and if a quarry hits a seem, they have no way of knowing if they are not testing for it (or paying any heed to the tests even if they are testing). These minerals are microscopic and cannot be identified by the naked eye. The government (and by extension the ordinary long suffering Irish tax payer) is understandably very reluctant to bail out and pay for cowboy outfits in Donegal and they are not going to touch the mess with a barge pole if they can help it.

    Depending on the % of mica silicate mineral contamination in your blockwork, if it's high enough, your blockwork will fail anywhere between 5 and 50 years of concrete "cancer". A house may look fine now, but may take many many years to show up, or it can start showing after only a few years. The deterioration rate is determined by the % mica present and the exposure. More exposed walls i.e. walls more exposed to wet freeze thaw cycles will show up sooner than more sheltered walls. It's pure pot luck depending on what seems of mica were hit in a quarry. One batch of blockwork could be ok % wise and the next one unacceptably high. Cavity wall wise the exterior leaf will go long before the interior one, as it is the exposed leaf. The only saving grace is the inner leaf bears most of the weight of the roof as the wall plate for the roof sits on the inner leaf.

    This is similar to the Mundic blockwork scandal in Wales which affected houses there built between 1900 and 1950 until mandatory testing and proper certification of aggregates which I believe came into Britain in 1952 (not like the scandalous and wide open to abuse, "self certification" system that still exists in the construction industry in Ireland). Older blockwork houses in that area of Wales have to be tested or they will not obtain house insurance until they do, and they are graded depending on the level of Mundic present and pay premiums accordingly. Their insurance grade also effects their sale price whenever said houses are bought or sold.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    NIMAN wrote: »
    What type of insurance would cover that though?
    Normal company business and concrete manufacturers products liability insurance


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Irish Kings


    muffler wrote: »
    Normal company business and concrete manufacturers products liability insurance

    Of which any claim is very easily voided by the insurers if the suppliers are not sufficiently testing or heeding the tests.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Of which any claim is very easily voided by the insurers if the suppliers are not sufficiently testing or heeding the tests.
    Im far from an expert in this field but what can happen (it does with professional indemnity insurance) is that the insurance company would pay out but they would have investigated if there was negligence involved and if proven they (insurance co.) would then sue the indemnified company for repayment of the amount paid out in all or any claims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭m99T


    Seems to be something going around now that cassidy's are blaming the supplier of the hardening agent they used for going off to quickly. Don't know if there is any truth to this, only what I heard and people do tend to talk a lot about something they know nothing. Just recently helped strip an entire side of a house so defective blocks could be cut out and replaced. You could drive a screwdriver through them, as weak as paper.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,431 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    If Cassidys had used enough cement in the block mixture, it would've offset the higher presence of Mica in the aggregate.

    I see Leo Veradkar is meeting with the MAG on Tuesday when he is in Inishowen to officially open the new Cockhill bridge in Buncrana.

    Gigs '21 - Stendhal Festival (July), Stendhal Festival (August), [s]Liam Gallagher & Idles[/s], King Kong Company, Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs, The Undertones, And So I Watch You From Afar

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2018/1009/1002044-bad-blocks-donegal/

    Redress scheme approved for mica-affected Donegal houses
    The Cabinet today approved a redress scheme for private houses affected by bad blocks containing high levels of the mineral mica in Donegal, RTÉ's Prime Time has learned.

    The scheme is to be introduced under "exceptional measures" and is not part of the official Budget.

    The block defect is primarily due to an excessive amount of mica in the manufacture of the blocks.

    Government Chief Whip and Minister of State Joe McHugh confirmed the Cabinet agreed that the Government will provide the funding to assess and repair private homes affected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭m99T




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    hope the manufacturers of the blocks get taken to the cleaners if they werent testing the blocks as well. (but i doubt it ) probably back making them now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,431 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    Brilliant news!

    Gigs '21 - Stendhal Festival (July), Stendhal Festival (August), [s]Liam Gallagher & Idles[/s], King Kong Company, Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs Pigs, The Undertones, And So I Watch You From Afar

    Gigs '22 - And So I Watch You From Afar, Teenage Fanclub, Mogwai, Stendhal Festival, The Fratellis, Clutch, Kurt Vile & The Violators, Electric Picnic, Vantastival, The Cure, And So I Watch You From Afar

    Gigs '23 - Stiff Little Fingers, The Wood Burning Savages, Bob Log III, David Kitt, Ludovico Einaudi, DADDY LONG LEGS, The Prodigy, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, The Murder Capital, PJ Harvey, The Bonnevilles (w/Amy Montgomery, Rews, New Pagans), The Undertones (w/Buzzcocks), And So I Watch You From Afar

    Gigs '24 - Ben Ottewell and Ian Ball (Gomez), The Jesus & Mary Chain, The Smashing Pumpkins/Weezer, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, Ride, PJ Harvey, Pixies, Therapy?, IDLES(x2)



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Great news.
    Let's hope it's a large enough scheme to get everyone sorted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Piece on prime time soon.

    They reckon it will cost close to €1bn!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Just watching there. It will cost a hell of a lot to carry out the repairs but where is the money going to come from and how long will it take to secure payments? Its one thing looking for and possibly getting approval for 30 or 40 million from central government but to look for over a billion?????????


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Unlike the pyrite issue where large cracks were repaired in affected houses, I can see the mica issue being much more serious where houses will have to be completely demolished and rebuilt from the foundations up - that is, if the foundations themselves are not affected.

    It’s a very serious problem as the blocks made from the mica enriched concrete just crumble away like sand. Buildings with these blocks are not structurally safe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭GeneticDeviant


    Hey folks. Looking at buying house in Letterkenny. Which areas / estates should I be wary of in regards to Mica? Thanks in advance


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Check surrounding houses in the estate, early signs are hairline cracks in the external plaster, often seen to run at right angles.

    But you'll be getting an engineers report done if buying a house, make sure a mica check is top of your list of priorities, as the whole redress scheme seems to have gone cold since the turn of the year (probably cos all the money is needed for the children's hospital)


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I heard a piece on the radio news today about the Local Property Tax and how it wasn't being increased this year.

    Article said it was exempt for those in Dublin area with Pyrite damage.

    Are houses in Donegal affected with Mica exempt too?


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I heard a piece on the radio news today about the Local Property Tax and how it wasn't being increased this year.

    Article said it was exempt for those in Dublin area with Pyrite damage.

    Are houses in Donegal affected with Mica exempt too?
    No idea myself but Id think that houses here should be treated the same as those in other parts of the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Of course they should.

    But it looks like the rest of us are going to end up paying more whilst those whose houses are rapidly increasing in price are getting let off

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-to-hurt-small-rural-homes-as-dublin-let-off-hook-37982005.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Of course they should.

    But it looks like the rest of us are going to end up paying more whilst those whose houses are rapidly increasing in price are getting let off

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-to-hurt-small-rural-homes-as-dublin-let-off-hook-37982005.html
    I read that article and it does look like we would be paying more in property tax possibly...by way of increases based on assessed valuation.

    But thats not the point you raised though and a point that may not even be relevant to the thread. You said that houses in Dublin that have pyrite would be exempt from increases in the property tax. Is there already an exemption for people here who have houses with mica? Are there any houses in Donegal with pyrite?

    Sorry, but Im not up to speed on these issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    muffler wrote: »
    I read that article and it does look like we would be paying more in property tax possibly...by way of increases based on assessed valuation.

    But thats not the point you raised though and a point that may not even be relevant to the thread. You said that houses in Dublin that have pyrite would be exempt from increases in the property tax. Is there already an exemption for people here who have houses with mica? Are there any houses in Donegal with pyrite?

    Sorry, but Im not up to speed on these issues.

    I think rural dwellers will pay more as they are going to increase the amount due in the lower bands.

    You see my house was in a band of something like €100k - €150k, and its €225 annually for that band. Many rural house owners would have houses in that band I'd guess. So obviously the Gov will raise more money by increasing the lowest fee from €225 to say €400, and this hits a huge amount of house owners.

    At the same time I assume they would leave the €350k+ bands untouched, so a lot of Dublin house owners keep paying the same as they always paid.

    Exemptions are those with pyrite, which I think is a Dublin area only issue. Since these houses have major structural issues, they aren't asked to pay.

    My point was that mica houses are equally as bad, if not worse. Some houses in Donegal are close to collapse I'd say, from some of the photos of houses I've seen online. I was wondering if these mica houses are treated like pyrite i.e. exempt from LPT? I'm not sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    NIMAN wrote: »
    My point was that mica houses are equally as bad, if not worse. Some houses in Donegal are close to collapse I'd say, from some of the photos of houses I've seen online. I was wondering if these mica houses are treated like pyrite i.e. exempt from LPT? I'm not sure.
    Unfortunately this is the part that Im completely in the dark about. If all was fair in love and war then all houses that have structural defects through not fault of the owners should be exempt from LPT regardless of location. But will it be fair? Will mica be classed in the same league as pyrite when it comes to LPT exemptions? Questions for deputies McHugh and McConnelogue

    Only chink of light I would see is that houses affected by mica will have much, much lower valuations than similar or identical houses in the immediate area and therefore wouldnt be paying as much as others if it all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,803 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Some of the houses I have seen are worthless.
    Just some images if you search "mica donegal"

    https://www.google.com/search?q=mica+donegal&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB805GB805&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj69ZWIp7fhAhUM8IMKHb97B-gQ_AUIDigB&biw=1680&bih=907

    As for paying less, there was a minimum of €90 for houses up to €100k.
    I'm not sure if Mica house owners are exempt tbh.


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