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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 337 ✭✭Oodoov


    CaptainR wrote: »
    Its a bit like if the government hiked up the price of petrol to stop people driving as much in an effort to reduce road deaths.

    A rather simple comparison but its their train of thought on this. Not addressing why exactly people die on the roads or drink excessively, but to just make it too expensive to do as often making the figures drop. Then they can pat themselves on the back and say "look what we accomplished!"

    I haven't read the whole thread so it may have been mentioned already but I remember someone on here a while ago saying they reckon Lidl could bring Ireland to the European Courts for anti-competition behaviour.

    Anyone more familiar with this idea and its viability?

    No have to say i have not heard that or if it's viable but i'd love to see one of these multis take these feckers to task on this. It's amazing the way the government pick and choose what European laws they can abide by and break when it suits their agenda. We are either Europeans and part of the free market or we are not. The playing field should be level.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    Oodoov wrote: »
    I'm sorry how would not having to pay more for something not affect me? We run the household on a strict budget and that's the thing isnt it the people making these decisions, the high paid civil servants etc.. who don't have to worry about increasing prices are the ones preaching from a height about this.

    Normal people who work and pay for everything just want to be left alone and god forbid they got pissed the odd weekend and enjoyed themselves in the comfort of their own house.

    Just have a can less. Problem solved.

    It's hardly a big sacrifice to be making.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 393 ✭✭Mortpourvelo


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Just have a can less. Problem solved.

    It's hardly a big sacrifice to be making.

    Why the hell should they have to ????

    I’m sick to death of being the group with the “deep pockets”.

    The last budget comes along – we get about 3 quid a week more.

    Doleite knackers get at least a fiver, plus we already pay for their kids.

    Now you reckon we have to “sacrifice” more of what we earn ???

    Not entitled to anything for what salary we have left eh ? Nice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭CaptainR


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Just have a can less. Problem solved.

    It's hardly a big sacrifice to be making.

    What do you enjoy doing in your free time?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    Why the hell should they have to ????

    I’m sick to death of being the group with the “deep pockets”.

    The last budget comes along – we get about 3 quid a week more.

    Doleite knackers get at least a fiver, plus we already pay for their kids.

    Now you reckon we have to “sacrifice” more of what we earn ???

    Not entitled to anything for what salary we have left eh ? Nice.

    The 'dolerite knackers' as you refer to them will pay the most for this measure.

    You should be championing it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    CaptainR wrote: »
    What do you enjoy doing in your free time?

    I think you've wandered into the wrong conversion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The tacit acceptance of public drunkenness, resultant violence and messing and all that is the reason alcohol consumption looks bad in this country. No one cares.

    Other countries probably have the same level of alcohol intake, but messing and fighting is just not tolerated. That is the difference between other countries and here IMV.

    The publicans should not serve anyone who is obviously pi$$ed but they do in general.

    The Gardai are never around to stop drink related trouble, reactive rather than proactive.

    Hospital A+Es do not admonish messy drunks who roar and shout and demand attention. Drunk tanks +€100 extra for treating you if you have a high blood/alcohol level. Separate areas for drunks. Nah.... never happen.

    Sanctions for public drunkenness? None AFAIS. Just turn around and do it all again.

    I sound a bit Peed off and I am.

    Because of this lack of sanction or public/societal "frowning" upon drunkenness, the ordinary drinker is punished.

    But sure it's grand, just go to the pub, get hammered there, fall out the door, have a fight, attack someone, rape a woman, fall into the road, get injured. That's fine.

    Safer at home!


  • Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭CaptainR


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I think you've wandered into the wrong conversion.

    Aye, must be drunk again with all this dirt cheap booze they're selling these days.




  • MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    And no one will stop you.

    You will however need to make an increased contribution to the State to offset the cost to society of you getting regularly hammered.

    Sounds fair to me.

    What cost to the state? I don't cost the state anything by drinking and I already contribute massive amounts in all areas of life from income tax to vat on products. I also already pay far to much to them in VAT and excise duty on alcohol products, far more than in many countries around Europe and the world.

    Its reducing the price we should be to reasonable levels not increasing it. It's nanny state bull at its finest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,370 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    The tacit acceptance of public drunkenness, resultant violence and messing and all that is the reason alcohol consumption looks bad in this country. No one cares.

    Other countries probably have the same level of alcohol intake, but messing and fighting is just not tolerated. That is the difference between other countries and here IMV.

    The publicans should not serve anyone who is obviously pi$$ed but they do in general.

    The Gardai are never around to stop drink related trouble, reactive rather than proactive.

    Hospital A+Es do not admonish messy drunks who roar and shout and demand attention. Drunk tanks +€100 extra for treating you if you have a high blood/alcohol level. Separate areas for drunks. Nah.... never happen.

    Sanctions for public drunkenness? None AFAIS. Just turn around and do it all again.

    I sound a bit Peed off and I am.

    Because of this lack of sanction or public/societal "frowning" upon drunkenness, the ordinary drinker is punished.

    But sure it's grand, just go to the pub, get hammered there, fall out the door, have a fight, attack someone, rape a woman, fall into the road, get injured. That's fine.

    Safer at home!



    ZZzzzz

    Consumption is down as is violent crime.


    But sure lets Daily Star everything, it makes your point more pointy...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Why not make the people who cause trouble pay for the damage/medical etc? Just take it straight out the wages/dole
    No need to punish the many who enjoy a drink & do no wrong


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 861 ✭✭✭MeatTwoVeg


    What cost to the state? I don't cost the state anything by drinking and I already contribute massive amounts in all areas of life from income tax to vat on products. I also already pay far to much to them in VAT and excise duty on alcohol products, far more than in many countries around Europe and the world.

    Its reducing the price we should be to reasonable levels not increasing it. It's nanny state bull at its finest.

    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 393 ✭✭Mortpourvelo


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    I'm starting the campaign to repeal the Volkstead Act now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    But herein lies the issue. There appears to be little real evidence to back this up.

    And its not as if they are putting an additional tax on the product, so no net benefit to the state, they are simply going to increase the price of those products sold at less than the MUP, thus helping the more expensive brands.

    And even if you accept that MUP would be effective, in reality they need to bring it across all sectors not just off site sales to maintain the current pricing difference, otherwise it is simply a benefit to the more expensive brands on the pub trade


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    The same people will still drink as much as always, they will just go out & commit more crimes to fund it


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    But its already been established that price has nothing to do with it. Why would anyone champion a measure that is doomed to fail, so some politician can beat his chest and get his mug in the papers?
    The problem in Ireland is laziness and complacency by the authorities, nobody wants to do anything that will mean extra work and maybe unwanted attention by their superiors should it not work out.
    There is no multi faceted approach, no incentives, no taskforce to deal with the issue, its just tax hammer and ban hammer. I might even support this measure if the government had tried other approaches, but that won't happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 337 ✭✭Oodoov


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    Just have a can less. Problem solved.

    It's hardly a big sacrifice to be making.

    No thanks i'll drink what i want to drink. I make enough sacrifices to be able to enjoy a drink once in a while. I actually don't drink beer at all myself but that's besides the point. I'll be shopping up north for booze twice a year now and whilst im up there i'll be shopping around for other goods. More lost revenue for the government but hey such is life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    Nice ignoring of the fact consumption levels are already decreasing of their own accord without MUP.

    Why cant we impose regulations on pubs to stop serving of dangerous levels of alcohol and also increase penalties on public drunkenness and disorder?

    Ohh I know why cus the Vintners basically got to design every aspect of this bill cus it really has nothing to do with public health


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 337 ✭✭Oodoov


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    The same people will still drink as much as always, they will just go out & commit more crimes to fund it

    And their kids will go without even more because of increased pricing, but not to worry a few poshies will feel trilled that they have done something to help the common man whilst they sip on a fine Merlot in that oh so new and fashionable restaurant on Fitzwilliam sqaure . Splendid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Oodoov wrote: »
    And their kids will go without even more because of increased pricing, but not to worry a few poshies will feel trilled that they have done something to help the common man whilst they sip on a fine Merlot in that oh so new and fashionable restaurant on Fitzwilliam sqaure . Splendid.

    Exactly it will end up costing the state more money. A government who thinks to fix a problem is by raising taxes is a lazy government. Unfortunately we have had a long history of lazy governments. As long as their snouts are in the trough they don't care.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm afraid our laws don't revolve around your personal circumstances.

    Even if it were true (which it's not), that your drinking had no cost to the State, it's irrelevant.

    The cost of excessive alcohol consumption on our society is undeniable. We need to increase the price on this dangerous product to curb consumption levels.

    Explain how someone drinking at home costs the state money?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    This seems to have been the process.

    We continue to have a drinking problem. OK, lets do something about it.
    Anyone know the root cause for the problem?
    Not really, but I saw knackers drinking flagons on the boardwalk, terrible they were, waste of a live. We need to stamp out this problem.
    Right, so that deals with the most visible aspect of it, but what about the large amount of alcohol abuse across society as a whole. You know, wine sales have massively increased the last twenty years, seems everyone is having 'just the one glass' in the evening.
    Well yeah, and I suppose we need to think of all those feckers fighting after spending all evening in the pub and then heading on mass to the chipper fueled by alcohol & testosterone.
    Jeez, when you put it like that it seems like a pretty big problem. Maybe we should get input from across society. You know, the drink manufacturers, the homeless charities, medical, womens aid and SVP, sports clubs etc. Get as much input as we can so that whatever measure we take can be based on the best outcome for society.
    OR, or, how about this. Those feckers in Lidl etc selling that Polish beer for 80c, surely thats bound to be the cause. I mean, we never had any problem with drink until those feckers turned up.
    Any stats?
    No, but I talked to the vintners Fed last week and they said they are the only ones who know how to responsibly sell alcohol. Years of experience means they can spot the problems before they get out of hand.
    Wow, so you mean if they spot a group of lads getting out of hand and and old fart who sinks all his money into the bar day after day they can alert the right centres to get them the help they need.
    Well, I suppose, but I think mainly they just keep selling them until the money runs out or they start a fight and then they throw them out the door.
    Out the door into the hands of the social services I suspect. Wow, fair play to them, lets get that on the posters.
    Well, not exactly. I mean if someone from social services happens to be passing by, or I suppose if they are drunk enough they are bound to get into an accident and end up in A&E and sure there is bound to be someone from social services there, but I wouldn't go pushing that angle too much. Maybe stick to the vague, "responsible purveyor".
    So, based on no real research and nothing more than 'drinking at home is a massive problem' idea lets go with this. We price all the cheaper brands out of the market and help the publicans get back the customers they lost the last few years.
    And we sell it as dealing with the alcohol problem even though we know that we haven't touched on any of the myriad other ways that it affects society.
    Exactly.
    You know, I think we deserve a drink after all that thinking. Hey wait a minute, won't this idea end up costing me and my mates money, I hadn't though of that. I mean, I'm all for society etc, you know that, but costing me money! I mean come on.
    Ah no, no, you misunderstand. We set the minimum price at just below what our drinks are priced at so it actually will no no effect at all.
    Amazing, and we thought of all that? Well, on seconds thoughts that deserves at least two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Exactly it will end up costing the state more money. A government who thinks to fix a problem is by raising taxes is a lazy government. Unfortunately we have had a long history of lazy governments. As long as their snouts are in the trough they don't care.

    Nobody is raising taxes. This is just a price increase. There is no monetary benefit to the state in this.

    Fink Brau will simply pocket extra profit. Thats it


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,808 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    MeatTwoVeg wrote: »
    I'm happy enough to introduce it and study its effects after a few years. If there's no positive benefit, then fine, drop it.

    And here we have it. Here is exactly how the government debates these idiotic ideas.
    Introduce it ta fcuk and then let's see in 10 years.
    In the meantime normal drinkers have to get roggered blind with the costs.




  • I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.
    The upset here at the increase in the price of alcohol is entertaining. You must all be drinking much more than you're letting on to here if it's going to financially impact upon you so much. Would you all be as upset about a similar increase in the price of, say, fruit or vegetables?

    I look forward to the endless AH threads with hilarious rhetoric about a nebulous "nanny state" (and whatever other rhetoric the British tabloids use) when the price of fruit increases - not!

    Tax the plebs and their crap diets. Extend it to fatty/sugary foods quickly. Look at it as pre-payment for treating their weakness and lack of self-discipline in the future in our already overstretched health system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Its not the price increase that is the problem, we already have some of the highest price drink in EU.

    It is the total lack of any coherent policy or plan and the fact that it clearly helps one sector (vintners) over the other (off licence).

    If they want to price alcohol out of reach they simply going after the lowest part of it isn't enough.

    Why not keep the price but limit access? Only sell in 6 packs, only 1 per customer. Why not limit to only 3 pints in any one pub. Like cigarette machines you could get a token. You need to take a breathaliser to get another token. The technology exists to make this really straightforward, if the idea was really to reduce consumption


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    The upset here at the increase in the price of alcohol is entertaining. You must all be drinking much more than you're letting on to here if it's going to financially impact upon you so much. Would you all be as upset about a similar increase in the price of, say, fruit or vegetables?

    I look forward to the endless AH threads with hilarious rhetoric about a nebulous "nanny state" (and whatever other rhetoric the British tabloids use) when the price of fruit increases - not!

    Tax the plebs and their crap diets. Extend it to fatty/sugary foods quickly. Look at it as pre-payment for treating their weakness and lack of self-discipline in the future in our already overstretched health system.

    I have a problem being told I need to pay for others abuse of excess drinking. Especially when any extra i actually do pay is not even gonna go to the state to help pay for any extra costs incurred by their excesses and will just be profit for the sellers.

    Theres is not one single coherent fact based argument that supports MUP having any positive effect on drinking attitudes and any money raised through it is not even gonna be used to help pay to further help the issue.

    Its a optics cop out by the government and bail out for the vintners.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 393 ✭✭Mortpourvelo


    VinLieger wrote: »
    I have a problem being told I need to pay for others abuse of excess drinking. Especially when any extra i actually do pay is not even gonna go to the state to help pay for any extra costs incurred by their excesses and will just be profit for the sellers.

    Theres is not one single coherent fact based argument that supports MUP having any positive effect on drinking attitudes and any money raised through it is not even gonna be used to help pay to further help the issue.

    Its a optics cop out by the government and bail out for the vintners.

    True, every word.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭jiltloop


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Nobody is raising taxes. This is just a price increase. There is no monetary benefit to the state in this.

    Fink Brau will simply pocket extra profit. Thats it

    Tax and VAT are charged at a % of the retail price so if they are increased then of course it will increase revenue for the government also.


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  • I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.
    bear1 wrote: »
    And here we have it. Here is exactly how the government debates these idiotic ideas.
    Introduce it ta fcuk and then let's see in 10 years.
    In the meantime normal drinkers have to get roggered blind with the costs.

    There are very few "normal" drinkers - if by normal you mean fulfilling an international definition of
    "moderate drinker"
    - of alcohol in Ireland.


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