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If the world goes completely vegan

24567…12

Comments

  • #32
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    auspicious wrote: »
    countryside biodiversity would surge in 10 to 20 years.

    Land would be monoculture, producing food crops. It doesn't matter what we do, producing food is not good for the environment.


  • #33
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    eviltwin wrote: »
    . Maybe you should ask the people who actually have the animals what they would do.

    I imagine the response on the farming forum would be extremely hostile to a three on this subject. The EU would probably pay farmers to keep the status quo, regardless of the pintlessnes of the endeavour in the face of falling consumer demand.


  • #34
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    McGaggs wrote: »
    I imagine the response on the farming forum would be extremely hostile to a three on this subject. The EU would probably pay farmers to keep the status quo, regardless of the pintlessnes of the endeavour in the face of falling consumer demand.

    I wouldn’t blame them being hostile, the question is designed to inflame people. Seems to happen a lot here. Pointless posting it here. It’s not like we have any control over what farmers do with their animals.


  • #35
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Anybody who thinks a vegan diet is somehow better for the environment has no clue how food is produced on a scale to feed 8 billion people

    It’s absolutely amazing that people can look at a field of barley, wheat, spuds, carrots, broccoli or whatever and actually come to the conclusion that it would be more diverse than a field of grass that cows would be grazing in

    It’s really mind boggling that people actually believe that


  • #36
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    If the world goes vegan the land will be used to produce food to cater for that. The population of farm animals will be decimated.


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  • #37
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Enquiring wrote: »
    If the world goes vegan the land will be used to produce food to cater for that. The population of farm animals will be decimated.

    Not so sure would still need high om to keep things growing. I can't see people wanting to eat food that has been fert by human waste. So could have a system where animals are farmed for waste


  • #38
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Not so sure would still need high om to keep things growing. I can't see people wanting to eat food that has been fert by human waste. So could have a system where animals are farmed for waste

    That would still mean a decimation in the population of farm animals.


  • #39
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Enquiring wrote: »
    That would still mean a decimation in the population of farm animals.

    One in 10 yeah probably and some ;) but not all. Would end up with most in sheds I would guess to get the most out of them. Send it to get processed get some gas, power a few houses then send it on to the fields.


  • #40
    Vieira82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Vieira82


    jaxxx wrote: »
    [skip to 4th paragraph if you want to get straight to the point of this thread]



    Hello all. First off, I ain't vegan/vegetarian so let's get that outta the way swiftly. There's one thing which I've never seen being discussed, and something I'd love to get an overview on what vegans think about it. I have a huge respect for animals and the natural world, even though yes I'm a meat eater, though not a huge meat eater to be perfectly honest. Anyways I'm not here to discuss that.

    Please don't take this as any attack on veganism or anything of the sort. I've seen plenty of people attacking veganism, I even read recently some idiots referring to it as a religion. My head is still sore from how hard I facepalmed myself after reading that drivel. I'm genuinely interested in all your opinions on this.

    Let's say tomorrow the entire world goes vegan, just like that. Would it be a good thing if that happened? Honestly, I think it would. God knows we've been doing enough damage to the planet for millennia now, including countless harm towards animals, plants and so on. But the thing I have never seeing being discussed is this:

    What happens to all the farm animals? Cows, pigs, chickens, and all the rest. They can't be released into the wild, they're no longer part of the wild ecosystem much like ourselves. If they were released into the wild, in my opinion we'd only be causing even more damage to wildlife. There would be much more pressure on natural food sources for herbivores. If you take cows, pigs and sheep, there are no predators here to control their populations. Young piglets and lambs would be susceptible to birds of prey alright, but adults? The largest terrestrial predator we have is the badger and I'm no wildlife expert but badgers surely wouldn't be able to take down adults, cows especially? There were calls there not too long ago for wolves to be reintroduced into Ireland. I actually think this should be done, absolutely.

    If we don't release them into the wild, what then? Cull them all? I don't think anyone wants that. But we cannot release them into the wild, as I said before they haven't been part of the natural ecosystem in centuries. What becomes of them all then? I'm genuinely interested in what anyone has to say about this. I know it's a bit weird, going from humans killing farm animals to how they would be killed in the wild. But we've been playing god for far too long, and have caused untold damage to our planet. Look at the amount of damage that has been caused to the Amazon rainforest because of farming. When I was in school, it was said that there was like 40 football fields worth of forest lost every day. Is it the same today? All this because of farming.

    I love animals, I do. And I know that sounds hypocritical seeing as how I eat meat. But I look beyond that, I look at the wider effects on the planet, or I try my best to at least. If the world went completely vegan, what does become of all these farm animals?I really would love to know everyone's opinions on this. Thank you.

    The transition to veganism will be progressive and slow paced. I've talked extensively with friends about this. I think for Ireland specifically the "radical" first step is the government offer subsidies for non-animal based farming. Those farmers that do the transition could do one of two things:

    - Sustain the animals until end of life (this would be a part of the gov subsidy)
    - Animals sent to sanctuaries that should have a state support if they take a quota of farm animals in one go

    This obviously is still too radical despite the fact it's simply diverting some of the subsidies for beef and dairy to diversify agriculture in Ireland.

    In other parts of Europe there is a diverse agriculture system so it's easier to do this and progressively end the bulk of animal agriculture I don't think it will all be done in one go, it will be progressively in at least a two decade scenario.

    Also and at the same time it's important to ensure monocrops are culled in favor or plural crops that will ensure the land self-regenerates as much as possible without human or artificial interference

    I also don't think it will ever happen that animal farming will be 100% banned in the short term but the less demand for meat and dairy the more factory farming will tend to diminish.

    Eventually as society progress I'd say in 100 years time at least and with animal farming practically obsolete we could then see legislation banning any kind of animal consumption happening effectively veganism becoming law.

    So in my opinion the most important thing at the moment is to make society understand as much as possible how unethical and unsustainable animal farming is and bet on demand continuing to go down. Most regular people don't even dream on how animals are produced and what happens at abbatoirs and places where the animals are kept...


  • #41
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Gary kk wrote: »
    One in 10 yeah probably and some ;) but not all. Would end up with most in sheds I would guess to get the most out of them. Send it to get processed get some gas, power a few houses then send it on to the fields.

    One in ten surviving?


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  • #42
    Finty Lemon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    What will carnivorous animals eat if the entire world goes vegan? Or are they exempt?


  • #43
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,041 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    You can't set up an argument that one the one hand allows a fantasy hypothesis that the world suddenly becomes entirely vegan, then expect other people to solve the problem of the (suddenly surplus) animals that would result!

    It is possible that the world could go vegan - at a push - but by the time it happened all the animals would have been 'processed' so there would not suddenly be a glut.

    It is of course possible that some sort of disease aggressively infected all farm animals which would require an immediate culling, but in that extreme case the human population would be also affected, and we would be in more trouble than wondering what to do with excess animals.

    If the world going vegan required vast amounts of commercially produced food that imitates carnivorous food - vegan sausages!! then the huge processing industry that resulted/replaced similar non-vegan processing would make its own contribution to climate and ecological issues. Meanwhile the need for food supplements would also require industrial input; the human body developed to be omnivorous and some necessary nutrients are not naturally available from plants. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/vegetarian-and-vegan-diets-q-and-a/
    Vegan baby formula is possible but very specialised; babies need human milk to thrive, it is the animal based nutrition needed by the human body.

    An argument discussing whether a 'predominantly vegetarian' diet for humanity might be advantageous to the world and to humans would make a good deal more sense, but this requires discussion of a 'middle of the road' solution rather than leaping to one extreme or the other, and thus is not likely to happen.


  • #44
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    To get back on topic, I believed that long-term veganism is predicted to reduce human fertility, and so if the whole human population were to go vegan the planet may be better off.

    The animals would work out their own population balance naturally.


  • #45
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Enquiring wrote: »
    One in ten surviving?

    I thought decimate meant to kill / remove one in ten


  • #46
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Gary kk wrote: »
    I thought decimate meant to kill / remove one in ten

    No, decimate as in kill/remove a large proportion. More than one in ten, far more I would say.


  • #47
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Enquiring wrote: »
    No, decimate as in kill/remove a large proportion. More than one in ten, far more I would say.

    The actual meaning of the word it was a punishment given to Roman legions I think were one in ten would be killed. Or so think


  • #48
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Gary kk wrote: »
    The actual meaning of the word it was a punishment given to Roman legions I think were one in ten would be killed. Or so think

    Yes but it's used to describe the killing/reducing of something by a large amount.


  • #49
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,041 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Yes but it's used to describe the killing/reducing of something by a large amount.

    Getting off topic and semantic here, but decimate means reduce by one in ten, as defined above. It is used now to mean take out a large proportion/most, and that interpretation has been accepted, which removes a perfectly good word with a precise definition from the lexicon. But hey, the language has to develop!


  • #50
    Bigbooty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭Bigbooty


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    To get back on topic, I believed that long-term veganism is predicted to reduce human fertility, and so if the whole human population were to go vegan the planet may be better off.

    The animals would work out their own population balance naturally.
    What the actual. Are you a reproductive medicine consultant? Seriously this is some Alex Jones level nonsense. You've absolutely no evidence.


  • #51
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭White Clover


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Land would be monoculture, producing food crops. It doesn't matter what we do, producing food is not good for the environment.

    Food produced from grazing livestock such as dairy, beef and sheep is good for the environment. Pasture grazing captures large amounts of carbon and stores it securely in the ground.
    On the other hand, when ground is tilled to plant crops, carbon is released. That is why, the promotion of a plant based diet is so dangerous to the environment.


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  • #52
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭White Clover


    Vieira82 wrote: »
    The transition to veganism will be progressive and slow paced. I've talked extensively with friends about this. I think for Ireland specifically the "radical" first step is the government offer subsidies for non-animal based farming. Those farmers that do the transition could do one of two things:

    - Sustain the animals until end of life (this would be a part of the gov subsidy)
    - Animals sent to sanctuaries that should have a state support if they take a quota of farm animals in one go

    This obviously is still too radical despite the fact it's simply diverting some of the subsidies for beef and dairy to diversify agriculture in Ireland.

    In other parts of Europe there is a diverse agriculture system so it's easier to do this and progressively end the bulk of animal agriculture I don't think it will all be done in one go, it will be progressively in at least a two decade scenario.

    Also and at the same time it's important to ensure monocrops are culled in favor or plural crops that will ensure the land self-regenerates as much as possible without human or artificial interference

    I also don't think it will ever happen that animal farming will be 100% banned in the short term but the less demand for meat and dairy the more factory farming will tend to diminish.

    Eventually as society progress I'd say in 100 years time at least and with animal farming practically obsolete we could then see legislation banning any kind of animal consumption happening effectively veganism becoming law.

    So in my opinion the most important thing at the moment is to make society understand as much as possible how unethical and unsustainable animal farming is and bet on demand continuing to go down. Most regular people don't even dream on how animals are produced and what happens at abbatoirs and places where the animals are kept...

    Sorry, but this is pie in the sky stuff, unless of course you can gift us a continental climate. We'll all be happy then!


  • #53
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    To get back on topic, I believed that long-term veganism is predicted to reduce human fertility, and so if the whole human population were to go vegan the planet may be better off.

    Please provide good quality evidence to support this claim.
    White Clover wrote: »
    the promotion of a plant based diet is so dangerous.

    Please provide good quality evidence to support this claim.


  • #54
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    I recently read that the amount of fresh water on the planet is the same today as it was millions of yr's ago and its something like 2.5% of all water. (Not an exact percent, but you get the idea). As the population grows toward 10b there isn't enough fresh water to produce food, so high water using food production (animals) will become more expensive to produce as the water becomes a more scarse resource. So turning vegan won't be a choice for many people in the future.
    I'm a happy meat eater by the way !


  • #55
    Vieira82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Vieira82


    White Clover wrote: »
    Sorry, but this is pie in the sky stuff, unless of course you can gift us a continental climate. We'll all be happy then!

    It's not, there's plenty of people doing non-animal based agriculture already on their own accord, it is possible and there is technology to do so. Historically, Irelands dependency on animal based agricultural is very very recent, and even before the "potato revolution" there was a diverse agricultural in the island with a colder climate. Keep in mind that temperatures are rising because of climate change meaning that idea we live in a wasteland is more defased from reality...

    OF course I'm not telling you to have a Banana plantation in Ireland but it's a matter of investing in what we can produce and export to counter balance the amount of food we have to import as we don't produce it... that's a starting point...


  • #56
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭White Clover


    Faith wrote: »
    Please provide good quality evidence to support this claim.



    Please provide good quality evidence to support this claim.

    Small edit to my post just to be clear.

    https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/9040-carbon-loss-proportional-to-tillage-intensity?v=preview


  • #57
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,557 ✭✭✭White Clover


    Vieira82 wrote: »
    It's not, there's plenty of people doing non-animal based agriculture already on their own accord, it is possible and there is technology to do so. Historically, Irelands dependency on animal based agricultural is very very recent, and even before the "potato revolution" there was a diverse agricultural in the island with a colder climate. Keep in mind that temperatures are rising because of climate change meaning that idea we live in a wasteland is more defased from reality...

    OF course I'm not telling you to have a Banana plantation in Ireland but it's a matter of investing in what we can produce and export to counter balance the amount of food we have to import as we don't produce it... that's a starting point...

    A colder climate in Ireland would have benefits, ie less threat of Aphids and other diseases at this time of year especially.
    But, in the face of a warming climate, (wetter too) and a tightening of chemical spray use, the successful growing of tillage crops in Ireland hangs in the balance. It's future is in no way secure.


  • #58
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Land would be monoculture, producing food crops. It doesn't matter what we do, producing food is not good for the environment.

    Nail on the head there McGaggs. Turning Vegan will not stop environmental damage caused by food production. You are just replacing one food production type by another. Veganism to me has nothing to do with saving the planet and it's biodiversity, anyone who adds this argument does not understand how food is produced in my books.


  • #59
    Bigbooty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭Bigbooty


    You're all ignoring how much potential vertical farming has. It's the future of plant based agriculture..99% reduction in land use and 95% water use efficiency. Big tech is putting billions into this technology. There was a Forbes article that showed how the equivalent of 2 acres of land produces 720 acres of food.


  • #60
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Bigbooty wrote: »
    You're all ignoring how much potential vertical farming has. It's the future of plant based agriculture..99% reduction in land use and 95% water use efficiency. Big tech is putting billions into this technology. There was a Forbes article that showed how the equivalent of 2 acres of land produces 720 acres of food.


    Factory farming at it's best. Don't get me wrong it is an interesting project. I'm just not so sure about the safety issues like contaminated water.


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  • #61
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Gerry T wrote: »
    I recently read that the amount of fresh water on the planet is the same today as it was millions of yr's ago and its something like 2.5% of all water. (Not an exact percent, but you get the idea). As the population grows toward 10b there isn't enough fresh water to produce food, so high water using food production (animals) will become more expensive to produce as the water becomes a more scarse resource. So turning vegan won't be a choice for many people in the future.
    I'm a happy meat eater by the way !

    The average water footprint per calorie for beef is twenty times larger than for cereals and starchy roots. When we look at the water requirements for protein, it has been found that the water footprint per gram of protein for milk, eggs and chicken meat is about 1.5 times larger than for pulses. For beef, the water footprint per gram of protein is 6 times larger than for pulses. In the case of fat, butter has a relatively small water footprint per gram of fat, even lower than for oil crops. All other animal products, however, have larger water footprints per gram of fat when compared to oil crops. From a freshwater resource perspective, it is more efficient to obtain calories, protein and fat through crop products than animal products.

    Vegetables 26 litres required per gram of protein
    Bovine meat 112 litres per gram of protein.

    https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/#:~:text=Global%20animal%20production%20requires%20about,the%20feed%20for%20the%20animals.

    Humans account for 0.01 percent of the planet's biomass. Human activity has reduced the biomass of marine live and terrestrial mammals by 6 times and the biomass of plant matter by half.

    Humans account for 36% of mammalian biomass.
    Livestock biomass ( pigs and cows mostly) 60%.
    And wildlife mammalian biomass is now a paltry 4%.


This discussion has been closed.
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