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Post RWC

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  • #122
    disposableFish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭disposableFish


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
    But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
    To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
    It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
    Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

    Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

    That's crazy good. I just checked and he ran 10.43 in June.

    For context, 10.61 won the national championships this year by an athlete with a pb of 10.41.


  • #123
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,204 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Imo, Murray was not the best sh in Ireland last season. He seemed well off the pace and I thought he should have taken some time off after the 6nations.
    It seems he's still not close to being back to himself.
    If he doesn't recover form he should definitely be dropped. He's at a crossroads now! He's 30 and has a lot of miles on him. He may never return to form.
    That being said, Schmidt ran him into the ground imo. I think the replacement sh's have their own set of skills and styles which were not developed. The lack of game time hurt us. The same could be said for Sexton!
    He also has been poor. After the Jackson trial, it seems there was no back up plan. Carberry was rushed? He still does not impress me at 10! Carty made the team, but a little too late! RB was dumped after England absolutely hammered us, like it was his fault.
    All in all, I think it was a disaster waiting to happen.
    Going forward, the other 9's and 10's definitely need meaningful match time. I hope Farrell sees this. Reliance on a couple of lads is nuts.
    The 6nations can't get here soon enough.




    I think Murray spent too much time looking forward over this scrum rather than feeding the backs laterally.


    He seemed to be doing too much thinking about it without actually doing the basics.


    I just can't get Faf de Clerk's performamce out of my head- nothing ground breaking by any means but just a rock solid SH performamce- quick, incisive and decisive.


  • #124
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭threeball


    Anyone looking for a clean out is only looking for another world cup tonking in 2023. You need to keep some of the senior players with new blood filling in around for the first 2yrs. In the meantime move out the lads who can't move the ball or have a low skill level. In 2021/2022 you need to have the team 70% new blood. High skill levels, low mileage, encouraging the provinces to play similarly. Then build towards the WC tweaking the gameplan in the 2023 six nations and refining in the warm ups. Bring in 15 new lads now and they'll get hammered for two years and be ready to put out to pasture in 4. Alot of the current squad will still serve a purpose.


  • #125
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    threeball wrote: »
    Anyone looking for a clean out is only looking for another world cup tonking in 2023. You need to keep some of the senior players with new blood filling in around for the first 2yrs. In the meantime move out the lads who can't move the ball or have a low skill level. In 2021/2022 you need to have the team 70% new blood. High skill levels, low mileage, encouraging the provinces to play similarly. Then build towards the WC tweaking the gameplan in the 2023 six nations and refining in the warm ups. Bring in 15 new lads now and they'll get hammered for two years and be ready to put out to pasture in 4. Alot of the current squad will still serve a purpose.
    There are quite a few positions that need to be looked at now and options lined up. Apart from 2 & 5 the scrum seems well covered. In the backline 9,10,15 need attention as a matter of urgency and the others unquestionably need people to try out for them.


  • #126
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Also, the dynamics of the team may change. Knowing that Sexton is nearing his finale, our strategy will most likely be changed to the strengths of the next 10.
    With that in mind, I think we may see some of the younger lads brought in sooner.


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  • #127
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    So the 6nations are right around the corner!! Any body think there will be a shock omission from the 23?


  • #128
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    So the 6nations are right around the corner!! Any body think there will be a shock omission from the 23?
    far too early to talk about 23. Talk should be about ommissions to extended squad first of all as that's the first thing you will see from Farrell and give an indication of change or not...


  • #129
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    So, who gets the hook?
    Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".


  • #130
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    So, who gets the hook?
    Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

    Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.


  • #131
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    So, who gets the hook?
    Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

    Well Kearney and Best are gone. Toner and Cronin probably also
    No point persisting with Earls imo.
    I’d immediately start looking beyond Sexton, but I don’t think that will happen. I’d put POM in that boat as well.

    I don’t foresee wholesale changes but maybe 5 or 6 new players to freshen things up. The big change needs to be the fringe players getting more of a chance (Larmour, Carbery, Beirne, Addison, Scannell ...)

    Max Deegan and/or Doris for the back row
    Gibson Park maybe deserves a chance at SH (though I am a fan of both Marmion and McGrath)
    Maybe Haley to get a chance for the extended squad. Thought he was brilliant for Munster on Friday


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  • #132
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Former Former wrote: »
    Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.

    Conor Murray has not been the best scrum half in Ireland for 12 months if we are being honest.
    And we had two viable replacements for him. Marmion has proved himself plenty with the squad and started probably our best ever win (all blacks). McGrath is the starting scrum half for one of the two best teams in Europe

    You cannot tell me he hasn’t been undroppable. He was barely sub-able in Joe’s eyes


  • #133
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,897 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    So, who gets the hook?
    Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".


    Well some who are rightly undroppable at the moment are Healy, Furlong, James Ryan, Ringrust.


  • #134
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    whatawaster wrote: »
    Conor Murray has not been the best scrum half in Ireland for 12 months if we are being honest.
    And we had two viable replacements for him. Marmion has proved himself plenty with the squad and started probably our best ever win (all blacks). McGrath is the starting scrum half for one of the two best teams in Europe

    You cannot tell me he hasn’t been undroppable. He was barely sub-able in Joe’s eyes


    I would put the Grand Slam win in twickers above the NZ win.....we had already beaten them in Chicago at that stage


  • #135
    VayNiice
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭VayNiice


    Former Former wrote: »
    Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.

    Total rubbish. O'Mahony has been awful all year and still gets selected regardless. Ruddock has always done well when selected and Beirne has his qualities too.


  • #136
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    True enough about Sexton. But, he should not be getting 70 minutes a match. Carberry needs time as does Carty.
    Healy's is still our best lh, but he's getting older and I think we should be looking for a successor. Maybe Wycherly at Munster or E.O.S, depending on their progress.
    I think Earl's should be jettisoned and Conway should get the nod. Larmour, Addison and Haley are perhaps the best prospects at fb.
    The problem as I see it is Murray! His salary is large and he just signed his deal. I think if he's not back to his best, he should be dropped. How will they handle that?
    Toner also is on the wrong side of 30, but with Beirne, Henderson and Ryan we're well stocked. Imo, Kleyn was awful! I can't see him getting many caps. Especially, with the likes of Baird and Dunne coming up.
    It will be fascinating.


  • #137
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    So, who gets the hook?
    Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

    Whoever performs for their province in the next few months should play and whoever doesn't should be left out, there should be no credit in the bank for anyone.

    To pick players who should be in or out in October would be repeating the problem. The squad and team should be picked on form while recognising the possibility that someone who had a poor RWC may return to form in the next few months.


  • #138
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

    I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

    Who has stood out at the other provinces?


  • #139
    Berticus
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭Berticus


    It’s interesting to look at the respective 23’s from the last two world cups. Only 9 of the 23 from the 2015 World Cup made the 23 in 2019 (when comparing the predominantly full strength matches at each).
    In between, I think it’s fair to say that there has been gradual change with a focus on building depth/the bench without a sort of Big Bang approach of dropping loads of guys - as some people are calling for. I think we’ll see something similar now. Nevertheless, I think we are probably going to see a decent amount of change by 2023 gradually over the 4 years.

    Also interesting to note as well, that there’s around 8 players in the ‘19 squad which were quite unknown in ‘15 which is exciting for the next few years in terms of seeing young talent coming through, as there appears to be a lot.,


    Ireland vs France RWC 15

    15. Rob Kearney
    14. Tommy Bowe
    13. Keith Earls
    12. Robbie Henshaw
    11. Dave Kearney
    10. Johnny Sexton
    9. Conor Murray

    1. Cian Healy
    2. Rory Best
    3. Mike Ross
    4. Devin Toner
    5. Paul O’Connell (captain)
    6. Peter O’Mahony
    7. Sean O’Brien
    8. Jamie Heaslip

    Replacements:

    16. Richardt Strauss
    17. Jack McGrath
    18. Nathan White
    19. Iain Henderson
    20. Chris Henry
    21. Eoin Reddan
    22. Ian Madigan
    23. Luke Fitzgerald


    Ireland vs New Zealand RWC 19

    15. Rob Kearney
    14. Keith Earls
    13. Garry Ringrose
    12. Robbie Henshaw
    11. Jacob Stockdale
    10. Jonathan Sexton
    9. Conor Murray

    1. Cian Healy
    2. Rory Best
    3. Tadhg Furlong
    4. Iain Henderson
    5. James Ryan
    6. Peter O’Mahony
    7. Josh van der Flier
    8. CJ Stander

    Replacements:
    16. Niall Scannell
    17. Dave Kilcoyne
    18. Andrew Porter
    19. Tadhg Beirne,
    20. Rhys Ruddock
    21. Luke McGrath
    22. Joey Carbery
    23. Jordan Larmour



    2023 World Cup:


    15. ? Larmour ?
    14. ?
    13. Garry Ringrose?
    12. Robbie Henshaw?
    11. Jacob Stockdale ?
    10. Joey Carberry
    9. ? Murray?

    1. ?
    2. ?
    3. Tadhg Furlong
    4. ? Iain Henderson?
    5. James Ryan
    6. ?
    7. ? Leavy?
    8. ?


  • #140
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,925 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    bilston wrote: »
    Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

    I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

    Who has stood out at the other provinces?

    From a leinster point of view, Hugo Keenan looks very much the real deal at 15.

    I'd like to see him get some serious european time this season to see how he goes.


  • #141
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    In terms of the team above I don’t think you will be seeing Carbery at 10 for 2023....

    Not that he isn’t good enough or anything, I would hope H Byrne kicks on and he is out 10 and we look at Carbery in another position.....let’s say, maybe 15 :-)


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  • #142
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,191 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Did i say the coach? I said the IRFU. Also the players of course care. Its definitely a factor. If people say it isn't , well thats is a denial of human society and how life works.

    The IRFU don't pick the team. Thus endeth the relevance of that. It's not even like in England with the EPS, the Irish coach can pick whoever he wants. Players are not ringfenced for selection.

    The coach just isn't very likely to drop a centrally contracted player as they generally have that central contract because they are highly rated and consistently selected by the coach. The causality on this one is clear. It wouldn't even make financial sense were that a concern - good performances are worth far more than savings on match fees. Also, central contracts or not, these players will need to be on high salaries to keep them in Ireland and ultimately the IRFU is going to have to pay it either way.
    Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

    Who cares if they would be pro? They would not have any impact on top level professional teams and wouldn't be within a mile of the national team so what does it matter? Provincial teams have pulled from the AIL at times - the players were never particularly good.


  • #143
    Sheep breeder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    From watching the RWC so far the game is changing to quick ball from the SH to keep teams going forward and not slowing the game down, which Ireland do at the moment and how many different English players moved in to SH to move the ball on against the AB. Also England and other teams have put in young players in to the team to great effect and are progressing along the game path and to counter the opposition game.
    The way forward is to get more young players into the team for their prime years.


  • #144
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    bilston wrote: »
    Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

    I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

    Who has stood out at the other provinces?

    Ronan Kelleher and Hugo Keenan have been the main two standouts for Leinster.


  • #145
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Ronan Kelleher and Hugo Keenan have been the main two standouts for Leinster.

    Kelleher is a hooker??


  • #146
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    bilston wrote: »
    Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

    I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

    Who has stood out at the other provinces?


    It's Pro 14 and to be honest most of the teams are playing B & C sides. So fairly irrelevant.



    Need to look at form after Europe and then see who is or who should be going to the Christmas camp and then into 6 nations.



    I would expect some of the WC squad will pick up niggles etc so a chance for some of the younger player to start in Europe


  • #147
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    bilston wrote: »
    Kelleher is a hooker??

    Yeah, Cian's younger brother. With Cronin out injured there's a good chance he could be in the mix for starting the first of the champions cup games over Byrne/Tracy.


  • #148
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    It's Pro 14 and to be honest most of the teams are playing B & C sides. So fairly irrelevant.



    Need to look at form after Europe and then see who is or who should be going to the Christmas camp and then into 6 nations.



    I would expect some of the WC squad will pick up niggles etc so a chance for some of the younger player to start in Europe

    I understand what you're saying but I'd argue that it's not really irrelevant, because if players perform well now then it puts them in a good position to get selected for the European games. Squidgy mentions Ronan Kelleher. Now I haven't seen him play (to the best of my knowledge), but if there was ever a position we need someone to breakthrough in it is hooker. Kelleher earns a place in the Leinster European team now and then who knows what will happen between now and February.

    I would have said the same of James Hume at Ulster before he got injured at the weekend, his early season form could have put McCloskey under pressure come the European games and then who knows. I'm sure there are examples from Munster and Connacht


  • #149
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Fitzgerald has been impressive for Connacht at 10, looks to have a bright future


  • #150
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    A gradual change is most likely what we're going to get.
    Many stalwarts will still be in the mix, I reckon.
    Nordi, for one looks to be in a good position. His versatility is his strength and with POM constantly underwhelming, it's possible he could be seen as an addition.
    Also, Carty v Carberry should heat up over the coming months! Obviously, one of them is in poll position to succeed Sexton. I am unsure as to how RB has performed for Leinster. Burns apparently, is going well for Ulster.
    I also think a couple of good months would set J.O.D up to be in the mix. T.O.D is too old imo, and I doubt he'll be in the running. The likes of Doris, Boyle and Deegan will be capped over the next 12 months. My money would be on Boyle to make the leap.
    Cillian Gallagher is another lad who I thought would be a force, but he seems to be injured a lot.
    I hope Ronan Kelliher lives up to the hype. McBurney too! We could certainly use some quality new blood at hooker.
    I think we're going to have a good 6nations. I think we're going to win at least 3 matches.


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  • #151
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    A gradual change is most likely what we're going to get.
    Many stalwarts will still be in the mix, I reckon.
    Nordi, for one looks to be in a good position. His versatility is his strength and with POM constantly underwhelming, it's possible he could be seen as an addition.
    Also, Carty v Carberry should heat up over the coming months! Obviously, one of them is in poll position to succeed Sexton. I am unsure as to how RB has performed for Leinster. Burns apparently, is going well for Ulster.
    I also think a couple of good months would set J.O.D up to be in the mix. T.O.D is too old imo, and I doubt he'll be in the running. The likes of Doris, Boyle and Deegan will be capped over the next 12 months. My money would be on Boyle to make the leap.
    Cillian Gallagher is another lad who I thought would be a force, but he seems to be injured a lot.
    I hope Ronan Kelliher lives up to the hype. McBurney too! We could certainly use some quality new blood at hooker.
    I think we're going to have a good 6nations. I think we're going to win at least 3 matches.


    Just in terms of results, last 6 nations we won 3 games and it was a disaster......I know what you mean and I think 3 wins would be positive but some people expectations are a little higher


    Ross Byrne is playing well, but he has been playing well now for a number of years and doesn't seem to be in favour so I don't expect to see him. H Byrne is coming off the bench and getting experience but he is a long way from the squad, maybe a few weekend with the squad just to get a feel for it.....


    Sexton is not going anywhere, he says the Lions tour will be swansong. If he is the form 10 then I don't see why he wouldn't be picked, if Carbery is playing better then he starts. Simple as that. Carbery biggest issue at the moment is staying fit, he has had a bad run and seemingly is still suffering from the ankle.



    Not sure about Carty, no surprise, he is 27 now....next WC he will be 31. Burns and some of the younger outhalfs would be a better investment. Carbery/Burns/H Byrne would be a good line up for next few seasons.



    Number 9 I have no idea, I dont think Murray will make another WC, he probably plans to make it himself. If that is the case would Ireland do a NZ and give him a year off? Casey in Munster looks the options but limited time in first team and like H Byrne probably not till next year.



    Cooney is meh....so do they look at McGrath and Marmion and maybe JGP?



    The likes of TOD etc are just wasted caps in my opinion, they are no better than the older generation and just stopping younger players getting a chance. They should be all cut out of options unless we have a nightmare.



    I dont really care about form either, whats the point in giving someone 10 caps when they have no long term future. I would include the like of Cronin in that bracket, he wil never be the number one hooker so drop him out


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