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The Academies

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    #2492
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Blackrock is usually the best school team?

    Historically yes.

    In recent years less so.

    Especially not with the metric of producing Leinster players. Have been significantly eclipsed by Michaels.


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    #2493
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Blackrock is usually the best school team?

    Maybe historically but not necessarily this year or in recent times. Lot more schools and then you have clubs also producing more than they have ever before


    Marcus Hanan signed his official Leinster Academy contract today

    https://www.facebook.com/clanerugby/


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    #2494
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Cian Tracey has a piece tomorrow in Indo about Limerick rugby and development of players.
    Headline is if Limerick hurling is damaging munster rugby.

    Will be an interesting read.


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    #2495
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    arsebiscuits1 wrote: »
    Historically yes.

    In recent years less so.

    Especially not with the metric of producing Leinster players. Have been significantly eclipsed by Michaels.

    Looking at academy and A team a good few likely to come through again soon.


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    #2496
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    Where are the top tier athletes gone in Leinster?

    Leinster have not produced a top tier athletic prospect in the outside backs(6'2+) in quite some time, they all seem to fit quite the same profile athletically, looking at the young-ish backs in the leinster squad,

    Hugo Keenan - 6'1
    Jimmy O'Brien - 6'0
    Jordan Larmour - 5'10
    Tommy O'Brien - 6'0
    Michael Silvester - 6'0
    Liam Turner - 5'9
    Niall Comerford - 6'0
    Max O'Reilly - 6'1
    Andrew Smith - 6'0

    Some of those stats may be a bit inflated too, that group covers players between 24 and 20. All these players have came through the schools system too.

    Looks like this issue has been identified somewhat but it was clear as day against Ulster A that Leinster were lacking top athletes, where have they gone in schools rugby?


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    #2497
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,989 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    whats the definition of a top athlete outside back??

    over 6' 2" and can run 100m in under 12 seconds?

    the obvious answer is that Adam Byrne hasnt really worked out.
    he has all the attributes but been bedevilled by injury.

    Barry Daly is another who would fit that bill but injury called a halt to that.

    you could argue Conor o brien fits that bill as well as he played a bit of wing / full back in his development and is very athletic at 6' 3" and fast.


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    #2498
    realhorrorshow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Jordan Larmour is a top class athlete.


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    #2499
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    whats the definition of a top athlete outside back??

    over 6' 2" and can run 100m in under 12 seconds?

    the obvious answer is that Adam Byrne hasnt really worked out.
    he has all the attributes but been bedevilled by injury.

    Barry Daly is another who would fit that bill but injury called a halt to that.

    you could argue Conor o brien fits that bill as well as he played a bit of wing / full back in his development and is very athletic at 6' 3" and fast.

    COB isn't athetic enough to play wing or fullback at pro level. So doesn't fit what I'm looking for.

    Been quite a few years since Byrne and Daly came through system.


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    #2500
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    realhorrorshow wrote: »
    Jordan Larmour is a top class athlete.

    Doesn't fit criteria I'm looking for as he is well below 6ft.


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    #2501
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Didn't know tall people had to exclusively join the schools...

    The two best back prospects in Leinster at the moment, two clubs players, are both over 6'2 (Jamie Osborne and Karl Martin). I don't think there's any dearth of height or natural athleticism in Leinster (mind a declaration of "natural athlete" based on height alone is silly in its own right. Genetic specimen, maybe, but we know well genetic specimens don't automatically make great rugby players).


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    #2502
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    Leinster's backline was clearly 2nd best when it came to athleticism, size and speed against Ulster A at the weekend. Only Osborne didn't look out of place.

    I think it's notable that the schools system, where leinster get the vast majority of their talent, hasn't produced many academy level outside backs over 6ft in the past 5 or so years and I was wondering why the gap.

    As you said the club setup seems to be filling the gap with some notably big backs coming through system.


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    #2503
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Ironically, I thought the difference between the two backlines in the A game looked to be not height and size, but the top two inches.


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    #2504
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Quite afew seem to being coming through in the next u20 side it seems in Osborne,Kiely,Martin.


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    #2505
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    As good as the schools are I don’t think they are quite able to make someone taller.


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    #2506
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Ironically, I thought the difference between the two backlines in the A game looked to be not height and size, but the top two inches.

    Exactly, like everything with Irish rugby we can focus on something less important like size rather than focusing on the actual problem which is again the top two inches, size doesn’t really matter if you are clueless on how to use it effectively.


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    #2507
    luke9311
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭luke9311


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Didn't know tall people had to exclusively join the schools...

    The two best back prospects in Leinster at the moment, two clubs players, are both over 6'2 (Jamie Osborne and Karl Martin). I don't think there's any dearth of height or natural athleticism in Leinster (mind a declaration of "natural athlete" based on height alone is silly in its own right. Genetic specimen, maybe, but we know well genetic specimens don't automatically make great rugby players).

    That Osborne anyway related to trinity’s rowan Osborne do you know?

    Funny this was mention as outside backs and their size stats etc... based on last years cup run newbridges LBN looked a good prospect for academy spot although he has another year in a school I think but almost certain looking at him to be well under Bayern’s 6ft mark he’s on about. That kelly fella on the wing (can’t think of first name off my top my head) for Michael’s last year also looked a good prospect and again don’t know the stats etc for him but looking at him looked 6ft or over it. Haven’t heard of him since he left school tho as to where he’s playing or what he’s doing...


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    #2508
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    UAEguy2020 wrote: »
    As good as the schools are I don’t think they are quite able to make someone taller.

    :rolleyes:


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    #2509
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    luke9311 wrote: »
    That Osborne anyway related to trinity’s rowan Osborne do you know?

    Funny this was mention as outside backs and their size stats etc... based on last years cup run newbridges LBN looked a good prospect for academy spot although he has another year in a school I think but almost certain looking at him to be well under Bayern’s 6ft mark he’s on about. That kelly fella on the wing (can’t think of first name off my top my head) for Michael’s last year also looked a good prospect and again don’t know the stats etc for him but looking at him looked 6ft or over it. Haven’t heard of him since he left school tho as to where he’s playing or what he’s doing...

    Ed Kelly, didn't make the leinster sub-academy.

    LBN will struggle given his size, he has a lot of talent but it will be an uphill battle at pro level.. he has all the skills to be an excellent scrumhalf. But that would require far too much creative thinking to likely happen.


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    #2510
    realhorrorshow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    bayern wrote: »
    Ed Kelly, didn't make the leinster sub-academy.

    LBN will struggle given his size, he has a lot of talent but it will be an uphill battle at pro level.. he has all the skills to be an excellent scrumhalf. But that would require far too much creative thinking to likely happen.

    Honestly it's not even that creative to take an extremely talented but small footballer and try him at 9. In fairness, sometimes players can be extremely bullish about playing a certain position (not saying that's the case here).


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    #2511
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    realhorrorshow wrote: »
    Honestly it's not even that creative to take an extremely talented but small footballer and try him at 9. In fairness, sometimes players can be extremely bullish about playing a certain position (not saying that's the case here).

    I agree its not that creative, but I doubt it will happen with LBN.


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    #2512
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    He could do a job on the wing possibly.


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    #2513
    BigJimV
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭BigJimV


    Irish provenances recently appear to be picking big players, 6ft or over for age grade rep sides or the academies. Is this a policy? pick the bigger lads and try and turn them into rugby players.

    Look at the wing and recent rep sides and academy selection, if your not 6ft+ they are not interested. Would Keith Earls, Dave Kearney or Andy Conway get selected in age grade or academies now?? There are plenty of 5ft 11 or smaller wingers playing pro rugby in top flight clubs in Europe. See examples, I am sure plenty missing from this list.


    GALLAGHER PREMIERSHIP WINGERS 
    Exeter Chiefs 
    RW: Jack Nowell – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/98kgs (15st 6lbs)

    Harlequins
    LW: Vereniki Goneva – 1.75m (5ft 9ins)/102kgs (16st 1lb)
    RW: Gabriel Ibitoye – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/92kgs (14st 7lbs) 

    Saracens
    RW: Rotimi Segun – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/92kgs (14st 7lbs) 

    Wasps 
    LW: Marcus Watson – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/88kgs (13st 12lbs) 
    RW: Zach Kibirige – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/83kgs (13st 1lb) 

    GUINNESS PRO14 WINGERS

    Cheetahs
    LW: Rabz Maxwane – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/83kgs (13st 1lb)

    Glasgow Warriors
    LW: Niko Matawalu – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/85kgs (13st 5lbs)

    Leinster
    RW: Dave Kearney- 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs)

    Munster 
    LW: Keith Earls – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/87kgs (13st 10lbs)
    RW: Andrew Conway – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs) 

    Scarlets
    LW: Steff Evans – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/82kgs (12st 13lbs) 
    RW: Ryan Conbeer – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/91kgs (14st 5lbs)

    Ospreys
    LW: Luke Morgan – 1.75m (5ft 9ins)/81kgs (12st 11lbs) 

    Treviso
    LW: Monty Ioane – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/95kgs (14st 13lbs)

    Zebre
    RW: Charlie Walker – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/85kgs (12st 4lbs)

    TOP 14 WINGERS
    Agen
    LW: Valentin Saurs – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/82kgs (12st 13lbs)
    RW: Jamie-Jerry Taulagi – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs) 

    La Rochelle 
    LW: Vincent Rattez – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/77kgs (12st 2lbs)
    RW: Jules Favre – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/88kgs (13st 12lbs)
    RW: Josua Tuisova – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/108kgs (17st)

    Montpellier
    RW: Gabriel Ngandebe – 1.73m (5ft 8ins)/74kgs (11st 9lbs)

    Stade Francais
    LW: Lester Etien – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/96kgs (15st 2lbs) 

    Toulon
    LW: Gervais Cordin – 1.72m (5ft 8ins)/73kgs (11st 7lbs)

    Toulouse
    LW: Cheslin Kolbe – 1.71m (5ft 7ins)/74kgs (11st 9lbs)


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    #2514
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    At least from a Munster POV, that's complete BS. Our two academy back three players atm are Jonathan Wren and Sean French. Wren is probably 5'10. French on the other hand wasn't chosen because of his height, but because he was one of the best players in that age grade with a rediculous highlight reel.

    In the sub academy, the next winger is Aaron Leahy who again isn't close to 6ft.

    Also, we've just spent the last couple of pages discussing all of Leinsters small players yet now we're saying they aren't interested if they aren't tall enough? Paradoxical.

    Would love to hear Connacht and Ulster POVs.


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    #2515
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Michael Lowry. That's how highly Ulster prize having bruisers in the back three.


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    #2516
    realhorrorshow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    theVersatile wrote: »
    At least from a Munster POV, that's complete BS. Our two academy back three players atm are Jonathan Wren and Sean French. Wren is probably 5'10. French on the other hand wasn't chosen because of his height, but because he was one of the best players in that age grade with a rediculous highlight reel.

    In the sub academy, the next winger is Aaron Leahy who again isn't close to 6ft.

    Also, we've just spent the last couple of pages discussing all of Leinsters small players yet now we're saying they aren't interested if they aren't tall enough? Paradoxical.

    Would love to hear Connacht and Ulster POVs.

    At Connacht our home grown outside backs tend to be on the small side. Diarmuid Kilgallen is probably our most powerful since Robbie and he's not exactly a monster.


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    #2517
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    Only Ulster have big fast wings consistently coming through their system.


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    #2518
    Locke_Lamora
    Registered Users Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    bayern wrote: »
    Only Ulster have big fast wings consistently coming through their system.

    There are some good athletes there but McIlroy is playing ahead of the other back three academy players, and he's not as big or fast as any of them.

    Baloucoune may be a very good athlete but he wouldn't have got nearly as much game time if his defending hadn't been so great from the start.

    We may have good athletes coming through but it's clear we value skill more.


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    #2519
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Locke_Lamora wrote: »
    There are some good athletes there but McIlroy is playing ahead of the other back three academy players, and he's not as big or fast as any of them.

    Baloucoune may be a very good athlete but he wouldn't have got nearly as much game time if his defending hadn't been so great from the start.

    We may have good athletes coming through but it's clear we value skill more.

    Absolutely. Our third choice wing - Lyttle - is 5'9". Baloucoune and Stockdale are both comfortably north of six foot, but that's not why they are first choice.


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    #2520
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    just because they are big fast athletes doesn't mean they lack skill, in fact if they are in the academy or senior squad then a high base level of skill can be assumed I would have thought.


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    #2521
    Locke_Lamora
    Registered Users Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Locke_Lamora


    bayern wrote: »
    just because they are big fast athletes doesn't mean they lack skill, in fact if they are in the academy or senior squad then a high base level of skill can be assumed I would have thought.

    You would think so but if you read the Ireland thread then you might get the impression that Stockdale has never been capable of catching a ball let alone jumping and catching at the same time.


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