Leinster v Ulster: Fri 8th Jan @7:35pm: LIVE on eir sport 1/TG4(later)

molloyjh · 08-01-2021 10:55pm

awec wrote: »

Penalty against Coetzee when Bent was clearly deliberately preventing him rolling away and Luke McGrath had his hands on the ball ready to play it!

Yeah that looked an odd call. There were a few of them! But on balance I'd agree he was good.

awec · 08-01-2021 11:08pm

I thought Coetzee was mince, McCloskey totally nullified, Faddes is an empty shirt.

I'm fed up with this crap. Every year we lose to this lot.

sydthebeat · 08-01-2021 11:11pm

awec wrote: »

I thought Coetzee was mince, McCloskey totally nullified, Faddes is an empty shirt.

I'm fed up with this crap. Every year we lose to this lot.

Same as the other 13 league teams, and vast majority of European teams then

bilston · 08-01-2021 11:26pm

awec wrote: »

I thought Coetzee was mince, McCloskey totally nullified, Faddes is an empty shirt.

I'm fed up with this crap. Every year we lose to this lot.

We aren't as good as them. Also we were missing maybe seven starters tonight (McGrath, Henderson, Reidy, Marshall, Balacoune, Addison and Stockdale) so we were a long way of full strength, so were they of course.

Anyway we still have to play them at home, win that and win the rest of our games (with BPs) and we may yet win the conference.

I'm hot and cold with Faddes and Carter, sometimes they go well, and then other times they don't justify their existence. NIQs need to be more consistent IMO. We don't need a NIQ back now, we have enough homegrown talent thanks to the emergence of Moore, Hume, Balacoune and McIlroy. Put that money towards a back row and maybe even a second row if Carter moves on.

It will be interesting to see what incomings are headed our way for next season. Still think we need to produce more of our own though, ultimately that is how we can best compete.

arsebiscuits1 · 08-01-2021 11:34pm

awec wrote: »

IRFU. One of the very few that aren’t terrible, but he did get the call that earned leinster a TBP tonight very wrong.

Swings and roundabouts.

The only reason Ulster had a chance of an LBP at the end was off the back of 1 or 2 contentious decisions decisions to lead to a kickable penalty

randomname2005 · 09-01-2021 12:18am

Bazzo wrote: »

A ref that correctly calls the maul from a caught kick! I've seen it given incorrectly more often than not to be honest.

It looked like it was wrong. Player caught it, stepped and was held up, not direct from a catch?

irishbucsfan · 09-01-2021 12:21am

Buer wrote: »

Tracey has been great since coming on.

Remove this man from this platform

aloooof · 09-01-2021 12:54am

Decent evenings entertainment. Thought JGP and Keenan were very good. Jordi kept going to the death too. Ulster zero territory in the 2nd half tho. Was it 4-0 in the try count in the end? Fairly compressive.

awec · 09-01-2021 1:15am

aloooof wrote: »

Decent evenings entertainment. Thought JGP and Keenan were very good. Jordi kept going to the death too. Ulster zero territory in the 2nd half tho. Was it 4-0 in the try count in the end? Fairly compressive.

Yes 4-0. Well beaten.

Ulster appalling after half time. Again.

dregin · 09-01-2021 10:25am

awec wrote: »

Penalty against Coetzee when Bent was clearly deliberately preventing him rolling away and Luke McGrath had his hands on the ball ready to play it!

In fairness, Coetzee should have been red carded for the blatant shoulder to the head (the second one), so swings and roundabouts.

CMcsporty · 09-01-2021 10:58am

awec wrote: »

Yes 4-0. Well beaten.

Ulster appalling after half time. Again.

I thought Ulster were just as bad in the 1st half.
Cooney’s exceptional kicks kept them in it.

Leinster stepped it up a bit in the second half.

A game without any standout performances.

ersatz · 09-01-2021 12:36pm

I didn't see the whole match, just the end of the first half and the second. And I don't mean to p on the parade but that was pretty insipid one out rugby that's really going nowhere. Pick n pop, as our antipodean comrades might call it, is a mind set, the equivalent to a political ideology. Leinster fielded an almost international backline yesterday (I know RB at 13 isn't that) and they had a couple of moments but the mindset was old school big lads folding around rucks 20 times and over we go. It worked against Ulster obviously and in fairness they showed more adventure when Connacht had their number last week so it's successful in the pro 14 but seen in the larger context of eorpean or world club rugby, and then Irish rugby as expressed by the provinces and its prospects, meh, not great. And as I say, it's a mind set, 'this is how we play lads'.

One of the reasons we loved JS so much was the kind of rugby he encouraged Leinster to play. It was a breath of fresh air and it was exhilarating, it also contributed enormously to the national team's most successful period (WC malaise notwithstanding and I know Ireland didn't exactly play like Leinster). but that seems to be gone completely across the board.

arsebiscuits1 · 09-01-2021 12:50pm

ersatz wrote: »

I didn't see the whole match, just the end of the first half and the second. And I don't mean to p on the parade but that was pretty insipid one out rugby that's really going nowhere. Pick n pop, as our antipodean comrades might call it, is a mind set, the equivalent to a political ideology. Leinster fielded an almost international backline yesterday (I know RB at 13 isn't that) and they had a couple of moments but the mindset was old school big lads folding around rucks 20 times and over we go. It worked against Ulster obviously and in fairness they showed more adventure when Connacht had their number last week so it's successful in the pro 14 but seen in the larger context of eorpean or world club rugby, and then Irish rugby as expressed by the provinces and its prospects, meh, not great. And as I say, it's a mind set, 'this is how we play lads'.

One of the reasons we loved JS so much was the kind of rugby he encouraged Leinster to play. It was a breath of fresh air and it was exhilarating, it also contributed enormously to the national team's most successful period (WC malaise notwithstanding and I know Ireland didn't exactly play like Leinster). but that seems to be gone completely across the board.

I love these "oh we need a swash buckling backline display with intricate backline moves for me to be entertained"

Ulster were defensively excellent yesterday. They played like this was their final. Their linespeed was suffocating and their ability to stop our front foot ball with enormous hits was as impressive as I've seen recently.

Also probably a kind reminder to your roundabout point of "one out play bad running backs good".... Exeter are current champions and won their campaign on dogged one out runners and grinding out a win.

It was a bonus point win at home. Missing several key players. Against the unbeaten table leaders. Who we stopped from scoring and getting a point of any kind.

Honestly.

ersatz · 09-01-2021 1:10pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I love these "oh we need a swash buckling backline display with intricate backline moves for me to be entertained"

Ulster were defensively excellent yesterday. They played like this was their final. Their linespeed was suffocating and their ability to stop our front foot ball with enormous hits was as impressive as I've seen recently.

Also probably a kind reminder to your roundabout point of "one out play bad running backs good".... Exeter are current champions and won their campaign on dogged one out runners and grinding out a win.

It was a bonus point win at home. Missing several key players. Against the unbeaten table leaders. Who we stopped from scoring and getting a point of any kind.

Honestly.

It is successful to a certain level, as I noted. Inside the ten it's one out, almost every time. Good teams can handle that, as we've seen. And the issue is not that it's boring or not entertaining, that's very subjective and some fans enjoy it and some games that play out with those tactics are absolutely compelling, it's that it has a real ceiling particularly as that mid set feeds int the national team. It really is not going to pose any kind of problems for the best teams in the world, club or test. So I'd ask that you engage with those questions, as it related to Irish rugby and Leinster as the leading team, what does it mean for Irish rugby that with those players Leinster now seem to have a fairly restricted game plan.

AdamD · 09-01-2021 2:58pm

Friday the 8th of January. Minus temperatures, perfect for that expansive style of play alright.

molloyjh · 09-01-2021 7:04pm

So the team that has consistently scored the most number of points and tries in the league for years, that consistently top their pool and regularly top the seedings in Europe, that have consistently shown they can have it all ways in terms of scoring from incisive backline moves to up front physical dominance, that have a winger on 19 tries in 21 games, that have TBPs in every game so far this season as well as 6 TBP wins in their last 8 pool games in Europe etc etc are being accused of being one dimensional.

Ooookkkkaaayyyyy.

Kraftwerk · 09-01-2021 7:35pm

molloyjh wrote: »

So the team that has consistently scored the most number of points and tries in the league for years, that consistently top their pool and regularly top the seedings in Europe, that have consistently shown they can have it all ways in terms of scoring from incisive backline moves to up front physical dominance, that have a winger on 19 tries in 21 games, that have TBPs in every game so far this season as well as 6 TBP wins in their last 8 pool games in Europe etc etc are being accused of being one dimensional.

Ooookkkkaaayyyyy.

The one dimension must success.

ersatz · 10-01-2021 2:43am

molloyjh wrote: »

So the team that has consistently scored the most number of points and tries in the league for years, that consistently top their pool and regularly top the seedings in Europe, that have consistently shown they can have it all ways in terms of scoring from incisive backline moves to up front physical dominance, that have a winger on 19 tries in 21 games, that have TBPs in every game so far this season as well as 6 TBP wins in their last 8 pool games in Europe etc etc are being accused of being one dimensional.

Ooookkkkaaayyyyy.

I wouldn't so far as to say one dimensional, they're not. But in fairness, the pro 14 has produced one European Cup finalist (Ulster) in the last decade bar Leinster. There are a few decent teams (Irish/Scottish) but the others would not trouble the best teams in England or France 4 times out of 5 and they haven't done. Leinster are one of the best 3 or 4 teams in Europe consistently for more than a decade and there are books written here on this board about the reasons for that. They are miles ahead of the pack in the Pro 14 and would be close to the top of the French or English leagues every year.

They don't just rely on bish bosh rugby, Hawkshaw's disallowed try (Connacht) was very nearly a masterpiece of team play and there were some moments in the Ulster game. Larmour's try against Saracen's was spectacular. As you point out there are dozens of other great expansive scores so I think that defense of Leinster goes without saying, though I appreciate fan sensitivities on here. Maybe they were being pragmatic on Friday as their forwards had the measure of Ulster and there's nothing wrong with that. But Ireland have gone down in flames playing like that for the last couple of years and Leinster got not much change from it on both outings against Saracens. Watching the Ulster game I wondered what ROG would make of it if he were preparing for a European knockout game against Leinster (as a coach rather than a pundit).

molloyjh · 10-01-2021 11:42am

ersatz wrote: »

I wouldn't so far as to say one dimensional, they're not. But in fairness, the pro 14 has produced one European Cup finalist (Ulster) in the last decade bar Leinster. There are a few decent teams (Irish/Scottish) but the others would not trouble the best teams in England or France 4 times out of 5 and they haven't done. Leinster are one of the best 3 or 4 teams in Europe consistently for more than a decade and there are books written here on this board about the reasons for that. They are miles ahead of the pack in the Pro 14 and would be close to the top of the French or English leagues every year.

They don't just rely on bish bosh rugby, Hawkshaw's disallowed try (Connacht) was very nearly a masterpiece of team play and there were some moments in the Ulster game. Larmour's try against Saracen's was spectacular. As you point out there are dozens of other great expansive scores so I think that defense of Leinster goes without saying, though I appreciate fan sensitivities on here. Maybe they were being pragmatic on Friday as their forwards had the measure of Ulster and there's nothing wrong with that. But Ireland have gone down in flames playing like that for the last couple of years and Leinster got not much change from it on both outings against Saracens. Watching the Ulster game I wondered what ROG would make of it if he were preparing for a European knockout game against Leinster (as a coach rather than a pundit).

Leinsters downfall against Saracens had little to do with their attacking game. It was the scrum and brainless penalties that cost them that one. We did score more tries than Saracens did on the day, made more metres, beat 17 defenders to their 3, had over 3 times the gained carries, more offloads etc etc. If anything that game showed that the basics are ultimately where big games are won and lost.

Once you get into the red zone against strong defensive teams their line is stacked and if their linespeed is good then there's neither a huge amount of space or time to put width on the ball. Added to that, Leinster had the measure of Ulster physically at that point so you look to press where you can get most advantage. You don't get points for style. As you said, Leinster have shown plenty of ability to play the flash stuff. And having as much variety in your attacking game as possible gives a much better chance of success.

I do feel Ulsters defence, especially in that first half, deserves huge credit. They were excellent. And that obviously led to us playing the way that we did. Plus, the previous week against Connacht we tried to do too much with ball in hand and it cost us. I'm sure that played a part of the discussions during the week too.

irishbucsfan · 10-01-2021 12:02pm

Leinster’s downfall against Saracens had a huge amount to do with our attacking game. In fact that was the chief cause of our downfall. Consistently making very poor decisions on when and how to play the ball, playing to Saracens’ strengths. That meant all Saracens had to do when they had first phase anywhere other than deep in our half was simply kick it back to us knowing that we would inevitably give them a platform from it. The scrum was the symptom of that problem.

All their penalties came on their put-in, and so all their kickable penalties from the scrum were because we were forcing ourselves into errors because we were completely outmatched when we had possession and were, for some reason, unwilling to recognise that and kick it back to them early enough.

Stout Warrior · 10-01-2021 12:10pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster’s downfall against Saracens had a huge amount to do with our attacking game. In fact that was the chief cause of our downfall. Consistently making very poor decisions on when and how to play the ball, playing to Saracens’ strengths. That meant all Saracens had to do when they had first phase anywhere other than deep in our half was simply kick it back to us knowing that we would inevitably give them a platform from it. The scrum was the symptom of that problem.

All their penalties came on their put-in, and so all their kickable penalties from the scrum were because we were forcing ourselves into errors because we were completely outmatched when we had possession and were, for some reason, unwilling to recognise that and kick it back to them early enough.

Saracens like England use a rush defence. Find a way to counteract that and you have a very different game. They beat us up up front and closed down our back line. If you are beaten on those 2 fronts it’s very hard to win.

Irish Beef · 10-01-2021 1:48pm

ersatz wrote: »

I didn't see the whole match, just the end of the first half and the second. And I don't mean to p on the parade but that was pretty insipid one out rugby that's really going nowhere. Pick n pop, as our antipodean comrades might call it, is a mind set, the equivalent to a political ideology. Leinster fielded an almost international backline yesterday (I know RB at 13 isn't that) and they had a couple of moments but the mindset was old school big lads folding around rucks 20 times and over we go. It worked against Ulster obviously and in fairness they showed more adventure when Connacht had their number last week so it's successful in the pro 14 but seen in the larger context of eorpean or world club rugby, and then Irish rugby as expressed by the provinces and its prospects, meh, not great. And as I say, it's a mind set, 'this is how we play lads'.

One of the reasons we loved JS so much was the kind of rugby he encouraged Leinster to play. It was a breath of fresh air and it was exhilarating, it also contributed enormously to the national team's most successful period (WC malaise notwithstanding and I know Ireland didn't exactly play like Leinster). but that seems to be gone completely across the board.

That's very harsh on Leinster here, that was a strong performance against an unbeaten team in this competition on a freezing night and they even got the Bp and denied Ulster the Losing BP.
Leinster have to play every game the way that suits them, they're not Ireland, Leo can only coach the Leinster players, you can't really expect him to coach Leinster in the hope that it might help Ireland down the road. Joe Smith certainly hadn't an expansive game plan with Ireland in last few years since you brought him up, and you only saw half the game.

Leinster v Ulster: Fri 8th Jan @7:35pm: LIVE on eir sport 1/TG4(later)

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