The SF vote was part of a class war against Middle Ireland

smurgen · 28-03-2020 8:17pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im always impressed how people can get so mad at people who work incredibly hard and contribute to society and who have logged the tax cash to pay for this emergency situation in favour of defending those who only detract and are not helping financially or with their time now or after this is over.

Ive only ever had a go at detractors and wanted a wider tax base, how you can be angry at that and not lowlifes scamming the welfare is beyond me.

Times wont get easier for the taxpayer, were importing more detractors, every successive government spends more and theres never tax cuts.

I pay a fortune in tax and I'm a SF supporter. Have no problem with paying tax.my problem is the endless waste of FFG governments and cronyism when tendering projects.

Eric Cartman · 28-03-2020 8:30pm

smurgen wrote: »

I pay a fortune in tax and I'm a SF supporter. Have no problem with paying tax.my problem is the endless waste of FFG governments and cronyism when tendering projects.

Absolutely an issue, SF are not the solution. Wouldnt you rather pay a lot less in tax and not have crony quangos and massove cuvil service overspends

28-03-2020 8:35pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Absolutely an issue, SF are not the solution. Wouldnt you rather pay a lot less in tax and not have crony quangos and massove cuvil service overspends

This isnt what he said though??

He hates to see money wasted through cronism??,vast difference

We have somehow through liberialism privatised HCAs....we pay agencies e45 an hour for this,those employed directly by the HSE earn e14.50 an hour tops and many have restricted hours...but can get near unlimited through private company (this was well before crisis)

How is this value for money?

end of the road · 28-03-2020 9:55pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im always impressed how people can get so mad at people who work incredibly hard and contribute to society and who have logged the tax cash to pay for this emergency situation in favour of defending those who only detract and are not helping financially or with their time now or after this is over.

i don't know how you can be impressed at something that isn't happening? takes all sorts i suppose.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ive only ever had a go at detractors and wanted a wider tax base, how you can be angry at that and not lowlifes scamming the welfare is beyond me.

except that isn't the case.
people can be angry at people scamming wellfare and still not support what you support.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Times wont get easier for the taxpayer, were importing more detractors, every successive government spends more and theres never tax cuts.

because tax cuts are unlikely to be viable for a small country like ours.
if it was viable to have tax cuts and public services and all the other necessities, some of which we are way behind on, then a party would have proposed it, laid out how they would deliver it, and they would i suspect be elected and have delivered it.

Brendan Bendar · 29-03-2020 2:48am

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know how you can be impressed at something that isn't happening? takes all sorts i suppose.

except that isn't the case.
people can be angry at people scamming wellfare and still not support what you support.

because tax cuts are unlikely to be viable for a small country like ours.
if it was viable to have tax cuts and public services and all the other necessities, some of which we are way behind on, then a party would have proposed it, laid out how they would deliver it, and they would i suspect be elected and have delivered it.

The key of course is to get everyone on the books, and contributing, however small.

Look at what’s happening in Southern Italy now...big trouble coping .

Why... cash economy per the BBC, just like Greece used to have.

That’s what happens when everyone is ducking and diving.

end of the road · 29-03-2020 4:30pm

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

The key of course is to get everyone on the books, and contributing, however small.

Look at what’s happening in Southern Italy now...big trouble coping .

Why... cash economy per the BBC, just like Greece used to have.

That’s what happens when everyone is ducking and diving.

you are never going to have everyone the books contributing. there will always be exemptions due to being under an income level threshold.
and yes of course there will always be the small few ducking and diving.

Brendan Bendar · 29-03-2020 5:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

you are never going to have everyone the books contributing. there will always be exemptions due to being under an income level threshold.
and yes of course there will always be the small few ducking and diving.

Unfortunately there will always be endemic ‘ducking and diving’ in,granted, relatively few countries or areas

Southern Italy and Greece being the prime examples and we all saw and are seeing the results of that practice.

When there is a concerted endemic practice of gaming the tax system it doesn’t take long for things to fold up if it comes under any pressure.

The report on the BBC recently showed that in stark relief.

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 6:23pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im always impressed how people can get so mad at people who work incredibly hard and contribute to society and who have logged the tax cash to pay for this emergency situation in favour of defending those who only detract and are not helping financially or with their time now or after this is over.

Ive only ever had a go at detractors and wanted a wider tax base, how you can be angry at that and not lowlifes scamming the welfare is beyond me.

Times wont get easier for the taxpayer, were importing more detractors, every successive government spends more and theres never tax cuts.

Nobody's defending any able bodied and minded person who spends their life on the dole. We just don't base our political thoughts or think society should be structured around a Thatcherite obsession about an extremely small part of the populace. You use this sliver of the population as a substitute for critical thinking, because thinking is hard, and it also helps you feel better relative to someone else in the societal sh*theap where you're actually far from the top.

Ireland's structural problems don't stem from this minuscule minority of people. It's a ridiculous hang-up the political and economic right has, and is played out over and over again on boards. And I'm sorry to say, you appear guilty of it as well.

High insurance costs: spongers!
Rental unaffordability: wasters!
Trolly crisis: spongers!
USC: wasters!
War in the middle east: chancers!
Rapid property inflation: feckless millennial!
Health insurance premiums: Fake sick people!

Repeat ad nauseam. It honestly bores the t*ts off me.

Runaways · 29-03-2020 6:30pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Nobody's defending any able bodied and minded person who spends their life on the dole. We just don't base our political thoughts or think society should be structured around a Thatcherite obsession about an extremely small part of the populace. You use this sliver of the population as a substitute for critical thinking, because thinking is hard, and it also helps you feel better relative to someone else in the societal sh*theap where you're actually far from the top.

Ireland's structural problems don't stem from this minuscule minority of people. It's a ridiculous hang-up the political and economic right has, and is played out over and over again on boards. And I'm sorry to say, you appear guilty of it as well.

High insurance costs: spongers!
Rental unaffordability: wasters!
Trolly crisis: spongers!
USC: wasters!
War in the middle east: chancers!
Rapid property inflation: feckless millennial!
Health insurance premiums: Fake sick people!

Repeat ad nauseam. It honestly bores the t*ts off me.

We have only have two parties ruling the country since the foundation of the state.
They created this ‘free houses free doctors free money!’ Set up we currently live in and hear all about all day in every available space on boards.
Does it actually exist? Asking for a friend.

Yet somehow it’s Sinn Fein are the blame for those things.

You’d have to wonder

Almost like

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 6:39pm

Runaways wrote: »

We have only have two parties ruling the country since the foundation of the state.
They created this ‘free houses free doctors free money!’ Set up we currently live in and hear all about all day in every available space on boards.
Does it actually exist? Asking for a friend.

Yet somehow it’s Sinn Fein are the blame for those things.

You’d have to wonder

Almost like

You'll notice these folks are always clever hard-working boys beyond reproach, pay a 67% marginal tax rate, and were 'never handed nuffink never' nor never benefited from any public scheme ever. Nor did any of their family, not never.

They were all born in wattle and daw huts used their individual brilliance to get where they are today. They wore sackcloths until they could afford their first pair of trousers when they got their first paycheck from working in the copper mines aged 11; and grateful they were for it too. There was never any helping hand along the way (it's imperative you remember this).

Field east · 29-03-2020 6:46pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Or maybe people just want change.

The left individuals/ parties have completely failed to deliver on the apparent change that the majority of the voting public required. As far as the left is concerned those for change ‘won ‘ the election. So what type of change will all the left leaning Parties/individuals pontificate on in the lead up to the next elections?

Eric Cartman · 29-03-2020 7:39pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Nobody's defending any able bodied and minded person who spends their life on the dole. We just don't base our political thoughts or think society should be structured around a Thatcherite obsession about an extremely small part of the populace. You use this sliver of the population as a substitute for critical thinking, because thinking is hard, and it also helps you feel better relative to someone else in the societal sh*theap where you're actually far from the top.

Ireland's structural problems don't stem from this minuscule minority of people. It's a ridiculous hang-up the political and economic right has, and is played out over and over again on boards. And I'm sorry to say, you appear guilty of it as well.

High insurance costs: spongers!
Rental unaffordability: wasters!
Trolly crisis: spongers!
USC: wasters!
War in the middle east: chancers!
Rapid property inflation: feckless millennial!
Health insurance premiums: Fake sick people!

Repeat ad nauseam. It honestly bores the t*ts off me.

its a hell of a lot more valid than

High insurance costs: THE RICH
Rental unaffordability: THE RICH
Trolly crisis: THE RICH
USC: THE RICH
War in the middle east: THE RICH
Rapid property inflation: THE RICH
Health insurance premiums: THE RICH

which is exactly what SF/PbP preach.

People get almost irrationally angry when I talk about widening the tax base as in their heads they visualise less money in their pockets , doesn't matter how high up the income scale you go, that anger doesn't go away.

some people want to just selfishly push the burden on to anyone just beyond their income, I want to fix the root of the problem.

if you have a leaking bucket do you turn on another tap or fix the leak to keep it full ?

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 7:46pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its a hell of a lot more valid than

some people want to just selfishly push the burden on to anyone just beyond their income, I want to fix the root of the problem.

Forgive me, but with your obsession with the tiny amount of long-term unemployed in this country, you wont be fixing anything. You could put them on an island and dynamite it to the bottom of the sea, and the issues above would remain.

If you're p*ssed off with high taxation and sh*t services in return, as always, you're looking in the wrong place. You've deluded yourself into thinking you've found the source of the problem, you haven't, you've just gone into a political and spiritual psychosis about the negligible amount of people on long-term unemployed that every developed country has.

You're frothing at the mouth about the wrong things.

Eric Cartman · 29-03-2020 7:52pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Forgive me, but with your obsession with the tiny amount of long-term unemployed in this country, you wont be fixing anything. You could put them on an island an dynamite it to the bottom of the sea, and the issues above would remain.

If you're p*ssed off with high taxation and sh*t services in return, as always, you're looking in the wrong place. You've deluded yourself into thinking you've found the source of the problem, you haven't, you've just gone into a political and spiritual psychosis about the negligible amount of people on long-term unemployed that every developed country has.

You're frothing at the mouth about the wrong things.

my issue is government spending, I want a government to provide me the bare necessities of infrastructure and emergency services. I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net . Cut taxation, Cut Spending, Cut services, Cut Quangos, its been a simple consistent message from me.

The problems in our society be it social or economic are not in any way the fault of the 'high income' earners and corporations that parties like SF love pointing blame at.

end of the road · 29-03-2020 7:55pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its a hell of a lot more valid than

High insurance costs: THE RICH
Rental unaffordability: THE RICH
Trolly crisis: THE RICH
USC: THE RICH
War in the middle east: THE RICH
Rapid property inflation: THE RICH
Health insurance premiums: THE RICH

which is exactly what SF/PbP preach.

except it's not what sf and pbp preach.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

People get almost irrationally angry when I talk about widening the tax base as in their heads they visualise less money in their pockets , doesn't matter how high up the income scale you go, that anger doesn't go away.

some people want to just selfishly push the burden on to anyone just beyond their income, I want to fix the root of the problem.

if you have a leaking bucket do you turn on another tap or fix the leak to keep it full ?

you want to widen the tax base and implement tax cuts.
widening the tax base means more money out of people's pockets because it can only be done via extra charges in some form.
tax cuts means less money for services, which widening the tax base couldn't make up the shortfall for, unless any charges were so high as to make any tax cuts redundant.

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 7:57pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

my issue is government spending, I want a government to provide me the bare necessities of infrastructure and emergency services. I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net .

I'm sorry that's absolute BS, and a warped way to view how public monies are directed and the benefits everyone derives from the same.

I'm not saying that the government always gets tax and spend right, but you appear to have an extremely 2-D and basic understanding about things.

Eric Cartman · 29-03-2020 7:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

except it's not what sf and pbp preach.

you want to widen the tax base and implement tax cuts.
widening the tax base means more money out of people's pockets because it can only be done via extra charges in some form.
tax cuts means less money for services, which widening the tax base couldn't make up the shortfall for, unless any charges were so high as to make any tax cuts redundant.

correct.....so you cut services..... and before you start Im not talking about nurses and doctors , I'm talking about like the immigrant council of Ireland, the duplicate bodies in the homeless sector, hse management etc...

end of the road · 29-03-2020 8:11pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

my issue is government spending, I want a government to provide me the bare necessities of infrastructure and emergency services. I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net . Cut taxation, Cut Spending, Cut services, Cut Quangos, its been a simple consistent message from me.

The problems in our society be it social or economic are not in any way the fault of the 'high income' earners and corporations that parties like SF love pointing blame at.

a simple consistent message from you that isn't deliverable without in all likely hood turning ireland back into the ireland of the 1950s, which by the sounds of it is what you want.
or if not that, some rose tinted glasses view of america perhapse, a country which isn't even any great shakes itself in the real world.
cutting services means people who need those services no longer have access to necessary services and supports they need, ultimately increasing costs to them and ultimately the tax payer in another form when the innevitable fallout happens, because we will be paying either way.
providing only bare bones infrastructure means ireland is not able to be as productive as it could be, which in turn means less investment, which means less jobs, less income for the state and less ability for people to change careers meaning less ability to earn a better income.

end of the road · 29-03-2020 8:14pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

correct.....so you cut services..... and before you start Im not talking about nurses and doctors , I'm talking about like the immigrant council of Ireland, the duplicate bodies in the homeless sector, hse management etc...

if the government are actually going to set up their own homeless service, and independant immigrant body to insure the rights of immigrants are upheld then by all means.
as they aren't, then the homeless services and charities, and the immigrant council of ireland are needed.

Runaways · 29-03-2020 8:19pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

correct.....so you cut services..... and before you start Im not talking about nurses and doctors , I'm talking about like the immigrant council of Ireland, the duplicate bodies in the homeless sector, hse management etc...

Anything I’ve read from you is roaring and ranting about people on social welfare and free houses etc etc

I’ve never seen you mention the above before.

So you’re realizing the real problem. at last. that’s progress anyways c

Eric Cartman · 29-03-2020 8:19pm

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm sorry that's absolute BS, and a warped way to view how public monies are directed and the benefits everyone derives from the same.

I'm not saying that the government always gets tax and spend right, but you appear to have an extremely 2-D and basic understanding about things.

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

Categories :
Other - Current Spend 12.3 billion, spend that impacts those who work - 7.14 billion
Transport - Current Spend 2.7 billion , all of it benefits all
Debt Payment - 9.9 billion , all benefits all
Agriculture - 1.6 billon , all benefits all
Justice - 3 billion , Except for 251 million for free legal aid and 'fair immigration' all benefits all
education - 11.2 billion , most of its alright,
Welfare - 21.3 Billion , of which 10 billion is pensions and other sensible benefits
Health - 18.3 billion, all benefits all except the system is abused, ill leave as is but trimming the fat would save 5 billion easily.

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

we could actually abolish vat if we stopped spending on these people.

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 8:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

Once upon a time (and I'm sure many reading this will have a similar story) I was on the dole for a few months due to the financial crisis. I am now a high tax bracket earner and have contributed many times back what I received and will fingers crossed do so for the rest of my career.

Back then, I wasn't one who purely detracts from the economy, and most of the people who are on the dole aren't either. The vast majority go back into the labour force and contribute towards services. You have a narrow and quite frankly Thatcherite view of the world, which is marginal and best ignored (I intend to do so from here on out, because you're saying nothing I haven't heard before from Bill Cullen types).

People like you would have people in difficulty gone on a boat or a plane to Canada / the UK permanently. We're a society not a spiv economy, long may it stay that way.

end of the road · 29-03-2020 8:52pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

Categories :
Other - Current Spend 12.3 billion, spend that impacts those who work - 7.14 billion
Transport - Current Spend 2.7 billion , all of it benefits all
Debt Payment - 9.9 billion , all benefits all
Agriculture - 1.6 billon , all benefits all
Justice - 3 billion , Except for 251 million for free legal aid and 'fair immigration' all benefits all
education - 11.2 billion , most of its alright,
Welfare - 21.3 Billion , of which 10 billion is pensions and other sensible benefits
Health - 18.3 billion, all benefits all except the system is abused, ill leave as is but trimming the fat would save 5 billion easily.

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

we could actually abolish vat if we stopped spending on these people.

yes, good idea, we could put genuine people who are receiving some of that spend into serious hardship, no doubt they would actually be the only ones effected as the tiny few who are doal lifers will just find other sources and it won't be a job.
legal aid is worth every penny by the way, it insures those unable to afford access to legal aid to try and get fair justice are able to do so.

Tony EH · 29-03-2020 9:47pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I want a government to provide me the bare necessities of infrastructure and emergency services. I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net .

This is absolute cobblers. But wholly indicative of your utterly miserable mindset.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:26am

Yurt! wrote: »

Forgive me, but with your obsession with the tiny amount of long-term unemployed in this country, you wont be fixing anything. You could put them on an island and dynamite it to the bottom of the sea, and the issues above would remain.

If you're p*ssed off with high taxation and sh*t services in return, as always, you're looking in the wrong place. You've deluded yourself into thinking you've found the source of the problem, you haven't, you've just gone into a political and spiritual psychosis about the negligible amount of people on long-term unemployed that every developed country has.

You're frothing at the mouth about the wrong things.

I fully agree that the high price level / medical / legal / energy / property costs are nothing to do with the LT unemployed.

However, it is true that we have high rates of economic inactivity in Ireland.

We have led the EU in rates of VLWI for over a decade.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:27am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

m I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net.

Note that other than the crazy low entry point into the top MTR, overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:29am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

correct.....so you cut services..... and before you start Im not talking about nurses and doctors , I'm talking about like the immigrant council of Ireland, the duplicate bodies in the homeless sector, hse management etc...

Having hundreds of AHBs doesn't make sense, fair enough.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:30am

end of the road wrote: »

if the government are actually going to set up their own homeless service, .... then the homeless services and charities, are needed.

We have 31 LA which deal with homelessness.

But as well there are dozens of homeless charities.

And hundreds of AHBs.

Runaways · 30-03-2020 9:28am

Tony EH wrote: »

This is absolute cobblers. But wholly indicative of your utterly miserable mindset.

All it took was a pandemic and a lockdown before 1/2 the country was on the dole and the other 1/2 wishing they were allowed to Travel to where they want without getting moved on by the Gardaí.

Sure another few weeks of this and he'll be recognised as an ethnic minority.

mariaalice · 30-03-2020 2:15pm

Geuze wrote: »

We have 31 LA which deal with homelessness.

But as well there are dozens of homeless charities.

And hundreds of AHBs.

Like a lot of these things they are not as they seem when you drill down, for example, an organization coulld have been providing services to some group and have lots of houses. Becaue of legislation they have to separate off the housing part and set it up as some sort of social housing organization giving the impression that there is more housing organization that there use to be, when in fact it is just a change in category.

The SF vote was part of a class war against Middle Ireland

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