New neighbour applies for permission for monstrous extension - without telling us

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 12:28pm #1

Hi, I'd appreciate any comments on my situation.

We are living in a 1940s war era semi-d. Looking at our house beside the non-joined property to the left, the two garages adjoin at the front, two passageways then adjoin behind the garages, both of which then lead into the respective gardens.

We have lived there for many years and always got on great with the neighbour who sadly died two years ago.

The house was sold last October and there was hardly a sight of the new owners. We caught a glimpse of them one day and they said hello then dropped in a Christmas card with their mobile numbers at Xmas to which we replied. All fine and ok so far. No further sight of them since then.

Last Wednesday I got a text message from the wifey telling me that a "site notice" had gone up for "a rear extension".

Having some experience in the area of property, I looked up the plans on the DCC website.

I was horrified to see that they plan demolishing the passageway on their side and building a 20 foot wall right up adjacent to the boundary which will block out all the light entering our kitchen, breakfast room and converted passageway which is used as a conservatory. By way of contrast the Trump Wall is only ten feet higher!

This wall would then join across their new kitchen to create a new master bedroom and en suite with a flat roof, above eaves level of the main house roof and have floor to ceiling windows at the front facing the main road. The edifice would then turn to the right, be filled out right to the boundary with us down the garden, have a master bedroom facing into the back garden with floor to ceiling windows and sliding doors and a terrace. These windows/doors would then peer directly into my own extension at the back.

The protruding master bedroom would then block and overshadow the light coming into my garden terrace adjacent to the back of my house and block off the light entering the rear bedrooms of our house and our view (we can currently see as far as the Spire).

They are also planning a chimney stack beside my wall sitting on top of their new kitchen, which will extend to the height of the main house itself. What the hell is that for?

I am absolutely furious that this was carried out with no consultation or notification to us.

I have heard varying arguments that there is no "right to light" but surely building a 20 foot wall right up against the wall and roof glass of my passageway cannot be permitted?

I need a drink.

Mrs S

heebusjeebus · 19-02-2019 12:34pm

Surely they've only requested planning and that's what the site notice says?
You should be able to complain about the proposed extension.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 12:42pm

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2019 12:44pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote:

I am absolutely furious that this was carried out with no consultation or notification to us.

This part is bizarre. Who are you that you expect a consultation? Why would they even go to the trouble? Contest it if you're that way inclined.

heebusjeebus · 19-02-2019 12:45pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

Their only obligation is to post the site notice. Common courtesy is another matter though.
Put in your complaint to the council. The council will take seriously any complaint. Emphasize the issue about daylight being blocked as that is a huge issue.

dudara · 19-02-2019 12:45pm

Yes, it would have been a courtesy to discuss with you. But that’s all, a courtesy.

The formal planning process is your chance to formally object. If their proposed changes will block light or intrude on your privacy then you have grounds for a complaint.

It might be a good idea to call into them for a discussion between neighbours.

L1011 · 19-02-2019 12:45pm

There is no legal requirement for you to be informed; that is what the site notice and newspaper notice is for.

You would be best advised to get advice from a professional planning consultant as to the viability of objections / appeal if required. You can make observations but ones not grounded in legislation / local area plans / precedent or similar are basically a waste of your fee. There is no direct equivalent of the UK 'right to light' that exists after 20 years.

The high horse brigade · 19-02-2019 12:46pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

The council will listen to your complaints. Blocking your sun light is a very valid concern.

Mrs OBumble · 19-02-2019 12:47pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

The planning process is what informs you of their plans. Thats what it's for. And it will take account of the issues.

Object. They will be declined. And then will modify the proposal to what they really expected to get all along.

Nekarsulm · 19-02-2019 12:48pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

While it might be good for neighbourly relations to mention a building plan to next door, its obvious that your two households are not on that level of "chatty relationship".
So, the site notice serves to let all and sundry know of a proposed development.

Would you have consulted next door if you were planning something for your own house?

Markcheese · 19-02-2019 12:52pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

It mightn't be your right to be consulted about this, but it was bloody stupid of them not too...
And a bit thick on the part of the architect/planning engineer to think this would just go through on this site,
Just object, don't get mad, don't get angry, just object...

swarlb · 19-02-2019 12:58pm

The high horse brigade wrote: »

The council will listen to your complaints. Blocking your sun light is a very valid concern.

There is no 'right to light'. I'm on the other side of the fence (excuse the pun) in so far that I have a row of very high trees on my property that block the light to my neighbours garden. Houses are stand alone, and in the country. When I say the trees are high, they are twice the height of my house. These are Lelandaii trees, and were planted long before I bought the house. We are here 20 years and in that time (from looking at old photos) they've grown out of all proportion.
Myself and neighbour have spoken about them, we both agree they need to come down, however I cannot afford to have them cut (about 25/30 trees) and he cannot afford to go halves. We approached the council, and they have no interest, saying it's our land, our trees, not their concern.
We used the 'right to light' argument, thinking they might help, and showed an article from an incident in the UK (Leylandaii are seemingly outlawed over there) but they honestly couldn't care less.
I realise this is a different situation, but the 'right to light' is not a given.

heebusjeebus · 19-02-2019 1:00pm

swarlb wrote: »

There is no 'right to light'. I'm on the other side of the fence (excuse the pun) in so far that I have a row of very high trees on my property that block the light to my neighbours garden. Houses are stand alone, and in the country. When I say the trees are high, they are twice the height of my house. These are Lelandaii trees, and were planted long before I bought the house. We are here 20 years and in that time (from looking at old photos) they've grown out of all proportion.
Myself and neighbour have spoken about them, we both agree they need to come down, however I cannot afford to have them cut (about 25/30 trees) and he cannot afford to go halves. We approached the council, and they have no interest, saying it's our land, our trees, not their concern.
We used the 'right to light' argument, thinking they might help, and showed an article from an incident in the UK (Leylandaii are seemingly outlawed over there) but they honestly couldn't care less.
I realise this is a different situation, but the 'right to light' is not a given.

It's a very different situation and in the case of applying to build a structure that will inhibit light on a neighbour, it will of course be considered.

Ray Palmer · 19-02-2019 1:10pm

As there is no right to light which is basically your complaint your objections will likely be ignored. You can go through the hoops but it is unlikely to stop them.

They don't have to ask or tell you anything other than post the notice. Are you going to talk to them or just file an objection?

Penn · 19-02-2019 1:11pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I am absolutely furious that this was carried out with no consultation or notification to us.

I have heard varying arguments that there is no "right to light" but surely building a 20 foot wall right up against the wall and roof glass of my passageway cannot be permitted?

There doesn't need to be any consultation, and I imagine they knew you wouldn't be happy with it for obvious reasons so felt it best not to consult with you. The site and newspaper notice is all that's required of them, and you now have a chance to object to the planning authority. It might be worth engaging a professional to do so on your behalf as they may be able to pick apart additional aspects of the proposed design which could help strengthen your case.

As for the right to light, yes there is no right to light, however if the development will have a detrimental effect on your property and enjoyment of same, this will be taken into consideration when you object to the planning (and likely beforehand too as the planners will consider it even if you don't raise an objection). Again, a professional may be able to make a strong case for this on your behalf.

You could of course lodge an objection yourself if you feel you can make a strong enough case to do so. Just remember to keep it as factual and subjective as possible.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 1:26pm

Kendall Sticky Ceremony wrote: »

This part is bizarre. Who are you that you expect a consultation? Why would they even go to the trouble? Contest it if you're that way inclined.

Because they're building at the boundary wall up to 20 feet? Common courtesy dictates you would alert your neighbour to such.

august12 · 19-02-2019 1:26pm

Would advise bringing a professional on board to lodge an objection. Will be worth the cost to you.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 1:29pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

While it might be good for neighbourly relations to mention a building plan to next door, its obvious that your two households are not on that level of "chatty relationship".
So, the site notice serves to let all and sundry know of a proposed development.

Would you have consulted next door if you were planning something for your own house?

Absolutely without question.

GBX · 19-02-2019 1:35pm

It would be a courteous thing to do but it is not a requirement to mention it to you. You are being given the opportunity to voice your concerns and object if you wish. If it was built without any planning permission, id understand your frustrations but they havent started building their extension. Yet you are furious. They bought the property and whilst it may not go along with your line of thinking the property should look, they own it and are entitled to make changes within the planning permissions.

loyatemu · 19-02-2019 1:36pm

there's no "right to light", but if the construction is as overbearing as described this will be taken into account.

definitely object, it might also be worth getting an architect or planning consultant in to write a report on how the new building will impact your property.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 1:37pm

Penn wrote: »

There doesn't need to be any consultation, and I imagine they knew you wouldn't be happy with it for obvious reasons so felt it best not to consult with you. The site and newspaper notice is all that's required of them, and you now have a chance to object to the planning authority. It might be worth engaging a professional to do so on your behalf as they may be able to pick apart additional aspects of the proposed design which could help strengthen your case.

As for the right to light, yes there is no right to light, however if the development will have a detrimental effect on your property and enjoyment of same, this will be taken into consideration when you object to the planning (and likely beforehand too as the planners will consider it even if you don't raise an objection). Again, a professional may be able to make a strong case for this on your behalf.

You could of course lodge an objection yourself if you feel you can make a strong enough case to do so. Just remember to keep it as factual and subjective as possible.

Much appreciated. I will informally approach them and tell them I will be objecting, and will have to do so because they didn't consult with me in the first instance.

I agree with you they in all likelihood didn't want to draw my attention to the content in as far as possible.

They are not living in the house and (apparently) are not selling their existing house.

vkus6mt3y8zg2q · 19-02-2019 1:43pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Maybe I'm very wrong but should we not have been informed as a courtesy about their plans?

If I complain to the Council what is the likelihood of the planners taking my concerns into account?

Yes you are very wrong. They dont have to tell you anything. Just object if you not happy.

Old Rudge · 19-02-2019 1:43pm

loyatemu wrote: »

there's no "right to light", but if the construction is as overbearing as described this will be taken into account.

definitely object, it might also be worth getting an architect or planning consultant in to write a report on how the new building will impact your property.

https://isabelbarrosarchitects.ie/blog/right-to-light/

Get professional advice.

My layman's knowledge was you had no right to a view but had to light

"The Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009 repeals the 1832 act, which had been effective in Ireland since 1 January 1859. A key change in the 2009 act is that the requisite period of use to establish an easement has been reduced to a fixed term of 12 years. Therefore, any person who has enjoyed the benefit of a right to light (or any other easement) will be entitled to apply to the court to obtain an order confirming this right. Under the 2009 act, unless an action to obtain a court order confirming the right was brought within three years of 1 December 2009, the rights acquired under the 1832 act will have been lost and such a right will not be reacquired until 2021 at the very earliest. This transitional period of three years was extended to 12 years under section 38 of the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011. In addition, section 37(1)(b) of the act seeks to simplify matters further and provides for an application to be made directly to the Property Registration Authority under a new section 49A of the Registration of Title Act 1964, without the need to apply for a court order. The disadvantage of the extension is that the archaic provisions of the 1832 act will continue to apply until 2021 instead of 2012, as was intended."

Xterminator · 19-02-2019 1:43pm

Hi OP

i suspect you would have objected whether they told you or not. You are more angry because they didn't but judging by the tone of your posts i don't think i would have 'consulted' you either were i your neighbour if that was the reaction they would get.

PS what business of yours is it if they are not willing to sell etc or resident in their own property?

Penn · 19-02-2019 1:47pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Much appreciated. I will informally approach them and tell them I will be objecting, and will have to do so because they didn't consult with me in the first instance.

I agree with you they in all likelihood didn't want to draw my attention to the content in as far as possible.

They are not living in the house and (apparently) are not selling their existing house.

To be honest, I wouldn't approach them to tell them you're objecting. You're making it personal then, and giving them a chance to lodge a counter-submission.

Make yourself aware of what date you need to submit your objection by. Take some time to properly plan it out (whether yourself or a professional on your behalf), and submit it. Going to your neighbour to tell them you're submitting it solves nothing, and could only create more tension. They didn't consult with you before lodging. You have no reason to consult them before objecting.

Again, keep your submission as clear and factual as possible. Let the facts speak for themselves. The planners will take that into consideration. Approaching your neighbour over it at this stage solves nothing. The application is in and can't be changed (pending possible further information which may include a change of design). Your only port of call now is to the planners with an official submission.

L1011 · 19-02-2019 1:48pm

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Much appreciated. I will informally approach them and tell them I will be objecting, and will have to do so because they didn't consult with me in the first instance.

I really wouldn't do that. Makes you sound like a crank / that your objection will be baseless and only due to being upset about not being told; rather than the real issues.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 1:54pm

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi OP

i suspect you would have objected whether they told you or not. You are more angry because they didn't but judging by the tone of your posts i don't think i would have 'consulted' you either were i your neighbour if that was the reaction they would get.

PS what business of yours is it if they are not willing to sell etc or resident in their own property?

Thats very unfair and wrong and unfactual.

They don't know me at all.

We waved to them as they went in when we saw them on one occasion that's all and they kept moving.

I then dropped in a Christmas card with our mobiles on them.

John DoeReMi · 19-02-2019 1:55pm

At least you got a text telling you that the site notice was up which gives you time to examine the plans and make an objection. The householder directly behind my house told me nothing until building was actually about to start. I was in a state of panic for about 24 hours before clarifiying that their original application, for an extension which would have serious effects on my house, was refused by Dublin city Council and they were forced to modify their proposal to one that had no effect on my house.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 19-02-2019 1:57pm

Penn wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't approach them to tell them you're objecting. You're making it personal then, and giving them a chance to lodge a counter-submission.

Make yourself aware of what date you need to submit your objection by. Take some time to properly plan it out (whether yourself or a professional on your behalf), and submit it. Going to your neighbour to tell them you're submitting it solves nothing, and could only create more tension. They didn't consult with you before lodging. You have no reason to consult them before objecting.

Again, keep your submission as clear and factual as possible. Let the facts speak for themselves. The planners will take that into consideration. Approaching your neighbour over it at this stage solves nothing. The application is in and can't be changed (pending possible further information which may include a change of design). Your only port of call now is to the planners with an official submission.

Just to make it clear I have zero difficulty with them developing the house.

The key issue is the construction of the 20 foot wall at the boundary. That's only ten feet shorter than the Trump Wall!

steinbock123 · 19-02-2019 2:02pm

I thought a boundary wall was only allowed to be 2 metres or so high ??

moceri · 19-02-2019 2:04pm

If you feel you need help in making a submission, then you should consider engaging a consultant engineer to take measurements and submit observations on your behalf. You may also know the neighbour on the other side of the proposed extension who may be impacted and may wish also to make a submission. You also have an opportunity to appeal a grant of permission to An Bórd Pleanala at a later stage.

New neighbour applies for permission for monstrous extension - without telling us

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